Things we can agree to disagree on

[jgredline]

Hi Everyone..
Thought this might be kinda fun..
Many of us myself included have strong opinions on things regarding the Holy Scriptures and some are Salvation Issues, while others are not..

I thought it would be good to list some of these things and see if we (myself incuded) can behave like adults. Lets keep it simple.

So as the opening post suggest.
Things we can agree to disagree on...

I am a pre triber. I believe the Church will be raptured between Rev 3 and 4
I have at one time been a post trib, mid trib, but for the past 5 years a pre trib.
There are good arguments for all three positions, But I believe the bible is much more clear on the pre trib..


I will add a second things we can agree to disagree on.

I do believe the nephilim were a result of fallen angels (demons) that mated with humans and that resluted in a super race..
Note; When I teach on this I teach both views.The other view is that the Godly line of seth intermarried with the ungodly line of cain.. Both views are good and have good points, But I believe in the first I mentioned.


Ok
What say you??
Blessings,
Jg

 

[ChristineES]

I don't believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment. I believe that the lake of fire mentioned would be like burning chaff, gone when it is burned. As for people I believe in an a cutting off from God (which is the person's own choice, not God's), not eternal torment.

 

[golfjack]

reply

I am pre-trib also. Ever since I decided to support Israel and found out the City of God is Jersulem. Also the scriptures are pretty specific on this event. We don't know when, but do some think it will happen at anytime?


Hmm, Fallen angels mating with humans? I don't know much evidence about this, but will have an open mind.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Christine
There are ALOT of people who believe as you stated that Hell is simply being sepperated from God..
If anybody chooses to be seperated from God, then that is a Hell of sorts because you would no longer be surrounded by anything good. Good post.

Golfjack
The nephilim thing is a hard pill to swallow. Like I said both sides have good arguments. It was not really until I started to study biblical Hebrew that I changed my mind.. Gen 6:4 when you get a chance study it..
What are some of the things that you debate with people that you can agree to disagree with?

Blessings,
Jg

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jg, I always try to be agreeable with other believers. Not so, with unbelievers.

What about Once saved always saved? I believe that Hebrews 6_4-6 gives us the answer. I don't believe sin causes us to lose our salvation, but it puts us in danger. I believe Hebrews 6_4-6 gives us five conditions that one must meet to lose their salvation. We must be saved in the first place
Enlightened and heavenly gift is being Born Again. Those who have tasted the goodness of the Word and the powers of coming age are those who are Spirit-filled. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin mentioned in James 5:16-17. I can't remember where we have a good example, but there were those Jews where born again and Spirit-filled. They went went back to their old ways and rejected Jesus Christ and did it in public. Bottom line, I don't believe many will lose their salvation, but it is possible, and if one loses it, they can't get it back. Even if a Born again Christian that is not Spirit-filled, will not lose it underr any conditions. Also, I believe one has to publically deny Christ, and with his mouth says I serve satan and not Jesus. What are your thoughts?


May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

What you just stated and really proved is why I don't by into the calvinist / armenianst doctrines. They both have problems and the both have good points. Your simple explanation is powerful and I would like to use it in my website if its ok with you.

Thanks Golfjack

Any more out there?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jg. you most certainly can use it on your website. I agree that there are many problems with Calvanistic Thelogy. And the Armeniast's are way out there in left field.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[lovely]

Neat topic, J.

I have written several things, but I have to keep on thinking. I agree with what has been written so far, though.

I will be back after I think on it some more. The Lord bless you.

 

[scutato]

Re: reply

Also, I believe one has to publically deny Christ, and with his mouth says I serve satan and not Jesus. What are your thoughts?

I'm not sure about the rest of your post, but this part jumped out at me. I disagree, because of Matthew 7:22-23:

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If you had to publically confess that you no longer served God, then you would certainly know that you're not saved anymore, correct? Suggesting that you'd have to do such a thing to become unsaved would mean a much larger amount of people who call themselves Christians would actually be saved than reality's much smaller number:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Spirit Driven]

OK Im in......

I believe the greater body of evidence in the Bible does indicate that God has no intention of throwing away and wasting anybody he breathed life into..... not one.

They will not all know Salvation at the same time, because there are still 2 eons (or ages if you like) to go before the consumation of Gods plan.

We are currently in the third eon, the second eon ended with the great flood which Noah survived by the will of God, we are currently comming towards the end of the third eon, how much time is left nobody knows except God.
The rebirth of Israel is the sign that we are near the end times of the third eon, the throne of David has been restored, (note the emblem on the Israely flag) the next eon will be the millenium reighn of Christ.
The dead in Christ will rise from the dust and reighn with Christ for the next 2 eons even up to the consumation of Gods plan.

Grace and Peace to you

 

[Preacher Boy]

OK, is any one in support of the gap in genesis 1, when the the earth and heavens were destroyed? It also is an interesting study.

I have an .mp3 by one i hold a great teacher of the Bible, if any one would like to hear it out.

 

[dancing queen]

I've only done a tiny bit of study on that gap-but it seemed logical and made sense

 

[John the Baptist]

Agree? Is this the Unity Thread?

So, then Pope John Paul was correct when he told these ones to just convert to 'c'hristianity and all is well???

Voodoo- a person who deals in spells and necromancy. (Webster)

Compare Deuteronomy 18:11 & King Saul & his witch encounter after he was shut-out from God.

Los Angeles Times, 2/5/93 Pope John Paul 11 sought common ground with believers in voodoo Thursday, suggesting they would not betray their traditional faith by converting to Christianity.

I wonder then, what it is all about in the Lord's Word that call's the Revelation 17:1-5 'THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH'? Surely these all are professed Christians huh? It does seem that they do have one bottom line thing in 'common' though for the 'old time' compilers to use caps, huh? : : But... we are now living in the twentieth century bub! :robot:

So it must be that being a 'Partaker' of what is Condemnation to God, is just a side issue for me now?:roll: Revelation 18:4
And we can all accept these non/issues, but God just cannot baptise them! Matthew 28:20 ACTS 5:32

NO: I do think that we will see this Unity from these, and with by far the 'modern' day majority! And with just this Born Again(?) mindset of the 666 finished product ones. How do you even now differ from Rome, in the bottom line of this 'thread??? Notice Revelation 22:18-19 with Ecclesiastes 3:14

Whatever? :

---John

 

[Judy]

I am a pre triber. I believe the Church will be raptured between Rev 3 and 4
I have at one time been a post trib, mid trib, but for the past 5 years a pre trib.
There are good arguments for all three positions, But I believe the bible is much more clear on the pre trib..

This I would have to agree to disagree... I am pre-wrath and I believe that is the only position with clear teaching in the bible.

I do believe the nephilim were a result of fallen angels (demons) that mated with humans and that resluted in a super race..
Note; When I teach on this I teach both views.The other view is that the Godly line of seth intermarried with the ungodly line of cain.. Both views are good and have good points, But I believe in the first I mentioned

This I would agree with. I think that Job 1:6, Job 2:1 and Job 38:7 would help us to understand that they were fallen angels.
And 2 Peter 2:2-5 and Jude 6 also help us to understand them to be fallen angels.

 

[Solo]

I am a pre-wrath sort of feller, and I don't much know about the nephilim, but would lean towards the fallen angel notion. I once was a born again, YCLYS (You Can Lose Your Salvation) kind of guy until God enlightened me. I used to believe that Hebrews 6 was the scripture that pointed to a loss of salvation, but it speaks that there is no way to repentence to crucify the Son of God afresh.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Early in my Christian walk, I began praying for understanding of this verse because I had fallen back into the sins of the past, and I thought that I had truly entered into the arena of the lost again. I began reading the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and began praying unceasingly throughout each and every day for God to give me the truth as to whether I was lost again since there was no way to "renew" myself again unto repentance.

God led me to Revelation where Jesus is giving the letters to the seven churches. In those letters, Jesus is telling the churches to repent from where they had fallen, otherwise he would remove their candlestick.

To the church at Ephesus he wrote, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Revelation 2:5

So there was room for repentence once one had fallen, according to Jesus' letter to the church at Ephesus.

I was reading in the scriptures one day during lunch at work where God led the Israelites by a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of cloud by day. I was still bothered about possibly being lost without an opportunity for repentance according to Hebrews 6. After work on the way home it was cloudy and overcast, and as I got closer to home I noticed a cylindrical water tower out by the state park lake that resembled a pillar of cloud. I drove out toward the water tower and parked in a parking spot at the state park lake and got out walking on the road around this hill. It was approximately 1/2 mile around this small hill by pavement, and I began walking a praying earnestly about the truth of being lost or not. When I was 3/4 of the way around the hill I got the notion to walk to the top of the hill. I immediately became deathly afraid of snakes, and was contemplating not walking up the hill. All of my senses returned to me, and I reasoned that I had never been afraid of snakes, and have handled many, many snakes. I have grown up in an area thick in rattlesnakes and was never afraid of snakes. I made up my mind that the ole devil was not wanting me to climb the hill, so I did. When I got to the top of this small hill, there in plain site was a bunch of rocks laid out on the ground in a 15X10 foot cross. I heard the still small voice of God speak to me telling me that He had died on the cross for all of my sins, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. I was overwhelmed, overjoyed, and I dropped to my knees giving God thanks and praises for being a just and merciful loving God.

Since that time I have come to understand that being born of God is not a function of man, but is a function of God. Man's salvation would be tainted with error, while God's salvation is true and pure and eternal. Man's salvation depends on works to keep, God's salvation requires initial faith, Man's salvation can be lost, God's salvation is a free gift for those who are born again. I can not be unborn physically or spiritually.

 

[jgredline]

Wow
Lots of cool topics that we can agree to disagree on.

The GAP theory is one. I don't hold to that view but I know many theologians do.

The pre tri / pre wrath / mid / trip / post trib is another good one.

Can one loose his/her salvation? I used to believe Yes, but the I believe the bible clearly teaches No.

The nephilim / did demons really mate with humans?

I look forward to hearings more comments. My I prayfully hope that these topics that we can agree to disagree on can be convreted into new forum Topics to discuss in a civilized manner..

 

[Vic C.]

This I would have to agree to disagree... I am pre-wrath and I believe that is the only position with clear teaching in the bible.

:-D I'm with Judy and Michael on this belief and not just because we feel Scripture dictates it. Here is something many Pre wrath believers don't take into account:

We really don't need the 70th. week to be futuristic as most the rest do. That's right! Regardless of if Daniel's 70th. week has already happened or not, God's final Wrath (the Day of the Lord) has not occurred yet.

We are promised this:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

and especially this:

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Neither promise is confined to a seven year Trib/wrath period.

Christine, I am still on the fence concerning the issues you raised, but I do tend to lean that way. Same with soul immortality. JG, I mentioned hell and it's duration in a PM and admire the fact that you didn't challange me on it. 8-)

Trinitarians, don't fret, I'm still there, though I don't view the HS as a person in the way English defines a person anyways.

Also, I'm still on the fence between God's sovereignty and man's free will. I still believe, however, that both can exist.

I don't believe in Good Friday. 8-)

That's it for now. ;-)

 

[golfjack]

reply

Can we agree on this? Can a True Believer lose their salvation? How does one do this? Have we been redeemed of all sin?

Yes to the first question. Hebrews 6:4-6 tells us that. Now, I believe a true believer that might be worrying about losing their salvation, has no need to worry. Why? Because they are still striving for spiritual growth. The Word says that we have been redeemed of all sin ( past, present, and future). So now, we see sin cannot do it. When we die, we will be judged at the Bema Seat, but sin is not the issue. Let me tell you a true story and it lines up with James 5:16-17. I knew a lady who left her Pastor husband for another man. She committed Adultry and continued by having many men over a stretch of ten years. I was praying for this person to come back to the Lord, but the Lord revealed to me not to pray for this person anymore. I said why? He said she had committed the unpardonable sin. I said what is this sin. He said, I would have forgiven her a hundred times, but when she denied Me in front of her former church, this is when I left her, and she cannot accept me again because of Hebrews 6:4-6 having fulfilled all the conditions. I said, what happened? He said she allowed Satan to convince her that she was sexy and deserved to be with other men. Now, this was in her mind and thought life and at that point I would have forgiven her. Finally that kind of black mark in her soul dropped into her heart ( spirit). No more blood for her. I did it once and will not do it again.

That sounds like a gruesome story, doesn't it? Losing one's salvation really does not happen very much, but I think we Christians need not to be complacent and go into the World of Satan. Just read and study our Bibles and let the Word make us better. This is why the Bible says to workout our own salvation with fear and trembling. This applies to our soulish realm. Constantly renewing our minds everyday.

Bottom line, we need not to worry about losing our salvation, but always be on guard. Pray, go to Church, and read our Bibles.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[lovely]

John's post is one of the reasons that I am struggling to find something that I can agree to disagree on, I think.

I know that Javier's point, at least I think I know, is that we can be true believers, and still disagree on some things. What are those things, though?

John's point is if we sacrifice the truth of Scripture for the sake of unity, then we are partakers in sin...basically in agreeing with things that we do not hold to in Truth.

For example, I have a dear friend who wears coverage. I do not wear coverage. Should she still consider me a sister? Is there a Truth in the Word of God that she believes I am not upholding? If so, how can she still call me sister if she believes that I am not upholding the truth of the Word of God? Is it because she does not feel that I am wrong in principal, but in method, and why would the same principal look different in method at all? Is someone just not willing to give all for the sake of obedience to Christ...me? Is there a difference between method and principal, or if we all hold to the Word should we look the same in Christ, and be doing the same things? Is it possible that she believes that I am an immature believer, and that God will reveal this to me, and that she can extend grace for my ignorance? Or, is this another example of pluralism in the world that has entered the church?

Is it only matters of salvation that we believe are needed for true unity in Christ? What are those? Obviously, I do not agree with my friend Khadim that allah is God, and so I can not agree to disagree concerning allah. I fear for the fate of my friend if he does not repent, and believe in Jesus Christ. To agree with him that allah is a viable way makes me a partaker in his sin, and a deceiver by default.

Of course, then we have debates about when tribulation will occur. Is this an area that we can agree to disagree, and why? Does Scripture teach more than one Truth on the matter? Where can we draw the line and say we disagree, but we are still brothers in Christ? Or, should we be saying repent, and believe the Word of God? Is this a result of the hardness of our hearts, and an unwillingness to listen to our brothers when they share the truth with us...are we more concerned about the letter of the law, than the spirit, when we are not willing to lay down all because we don't believe the Word says we must...or does it?

Certainly there were differences among the disciples, but how were they worked out, and did they consider each other brothers still? And, did they expect repentance from one another in disagreements?

I admit, I am struggling to find anything that I can agree to disagree on that isn't related to my own personal methods, or outworking, of the Truths that I hold. For example, I do not celebrate Christmas, but nearly everyone else I know does...even those that I believe are my brothers and sisters in Christ. However, I do hold that Scripture clearly demonstrates that we are not to redeem such days for God...yet, there is other Scripture that states that we are not to judge others about holy days. Is it best for me to be given over to the truth, and yet not consider those who hold on to Christmas (a modern idol, imo) idolators? In the same breath, what idols in my life am I still unwilling to tear down for the sake of Christ, and if someone is willing to point them out am I willing to lay them down in humility with a teachable spirit?

Where does debate end, and love begin. If my not wearing coverage offends my sister, should I put it on? Or, because I feel I am correct, should I continue on in that which offends her for the sake of honoring God in the manner I think is best? And, what if I think wearing coverage is wrong completely, that it fosters self-righteous living, and legalism? What kind of light is my sister being cast in then?

I admit, I am very immature in this area, and do not fully understand how all of this comes together in the body of Christ. I have never seen it as simple, and yet I do think it probably is, and should be.

Sorry for the rambling questions. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[golfjack]

reply

If I were a Calvanist or Reformed Christian, I couldn't justify a Pre-trib view. If I were a Dominionist, I couldn't justify a Pre-trib. You see, a Calvanists has this pet doctrine about election that messes up many other doctrines like pre-trib. I have always held that we can either accept or reject Christ. If I were to believe in Calvanist's doctrine, why is Preaching the cross necessary? I think a Dominionist seems to think that it is up to the church to clean up the World before the rapture. We can't even clean up our own messes, and to think we can clean up the world is silly and foolish. Only God will bring down wrath to the unbelieving world. Also, some Calvanist's want to replace Israel with the Church. This is because of their election views. Anyway, my 2 cents worth.


May God bless, golfjack