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Things we can agree to disagree on

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Of course, the KJV is the most common Bible used by Believers. When I preach, I use the KJV version, along with the Amplified Version for added emphasis. I believe that God has many tools in His tool box. Therefore, I have no problems with other translations except I guess Youngs Literal Translation. The Bible says that we shouldn't war over words, Doesn't it? After all, If one comes to the saving Knowledge of Jesus Christ by most Translations, how can anyone have a problem with the NIV? In my opinion, Christians are too stiff-necked today. They also get way too offended.

What about the New Jeruslem Bible?



May God bless, golfjack
 
As far as the NIV bible goes, here is in my opinion on it.

First. The NIV got me by for many years as a new believer as did the Living Bible.. As I grew in my walk with the Lord and started to discover other translations I discovered on my own that the NIV does indeed change many phrases and verses to fit the english grammar and thus making it flow. It also has allot of commentary built into it which is why its called a WORD FOR THOUGHT dynamic translation. Fortunately it leans towards the conservative side so its widely accepted. The RSV tried to make a word for word translation, but it to changed many meanings and verses to fit the LIBERAL translators thoughts.
(Like Mary was not a virgin) ..

So the NIV IS A GOOD starter bible, but should not be used on its own let alone for bible study. Case in point. My Kids go to San Gabriel union Christian School.. There they do use the NIV from preschool through 8th grade, but it is used with true word for word translations. The School / Church also has a Bible institute where the bible classes taught are alligable for college Credit and there we use only word for for translations. Primarily the NKJV, ESV, NASB and the KJV..

sO for milk we use the NIV but for meat we use the word for word translations..

Here is a link to my Church and the School my twins 1st grade and my 7th grader attend. I also had another Daughter graduate from there 4 years ago.
http://www.sgucandcs.org/

Here is a link to our Bible institute. If anybody lives around the Los Angles area and want a seminary style education for very little money and earn a degree I would encourage you to come and visit us.
Currently there is a beginning Greek class and Hermeneutics..
Here is a link. We have many Pastors and bible teachers from other churches attend every quarter. We use Masters and Fuller seminary curriculum and our Professors all have all the alphabet soup behind their name although they never really mention any of that. Anyway, I did not intend this to be a plug..
http://www.sgucandcs.org/uc/institute.php

Blessings, Javier
 
John the Baptist said:
Steve said:
I don't believe in the Rapture, or the Millenium.
I don't believe the Church has replaced Israel.
I don't believe there are 3 separate and distinct PERSONS in the Godhead
I don't really believe the Lord is coming back anytime soon.

*****
Well, some folks are in for a very rude awakening! :sad

---John

This is a thread where we can state our opinions and not judge people. Let's keep it neutral and not point fingers at anyone, ok?
 
Nikki said:
John the Baptist said:
Steve said:
I don't believe in the Rapture, or the Millenium.
I don't believe the Church has replaced Israel.
I don't believe there are 3 separate and distinct PERSONS in the Godhead
I don't really believe the Lord is coming back anytime soon.

*****
Well, some folks are in for a very rude awakening! :sad

---John

This is a thread where we can state our opinions and not judge people. Let's keep it neutral and not point fingers at anyone, ok?

********
Hay, I always state 'my opinions'! And I never (hopefully) judge ones motives. :sad Are you doing the same???? :crying:

Whatever, I will just sign off the 'thread.

---John
 
reply

My opinion is that our pets will be in heaven because the Bible says that God will take care of the affair of our hearts. In fact, I have asked God if I could be in charge of the animals and also have a White Tiger.



May God bless, golfjack
 
John the Baptist said:
********
Hay, I always state 'my opinions'! And I never (hopefully) judge ones motives. :sad Are you doing the same???? :crying:

Whatever, I will just sign off the 'thread.

---John

I don't want you to leave the thread. It just sounded like you were saying someones opinions were wrong. There are some opinions in this thread that I don't agree with, but I'm not going to point them out or say that they're wrong.

Sorry if I sounded harsh. I just get so tired of everyone pointing fingers at each other. I know it's natural for humans to do that and I've been guilty of it myself. How about we both agree to forget about what was said and move on?
 
I believe that John the baptist was the only man who was both priest and prophet.

I believe that the thief on the cross was the first man to see and be in heaven or paradise.

I don't believe you can be a liberal christian and go to heaven.

I don't believe you can go to heaven if you don't believe Jesus is God.

I believe that it is ok for women to preach, teach and pastor churches.

Thats it for now.
God bless,
Oscar
 
Genesis I
One - In the Beginning Created God, the Heavens, and the Earth.
Aleph - Berashith Berah Elohim Ath Ha-Shamaim Vath Ha-Aretz.

The "meaning" of Genesis 1:1 is to be found at a deeper level of the text. The Torah according to Jewish Rabbi's is said to be written on 4 different and meaningful levels. The first word of Genesis is B'reshith. The first letter is Bet and is translated (as in, or with). Beth, meaning house or dwelling place is an archetypical represention of the distinction between inside and outside. Reshit is usually identified with the root Resh, meaning 1st, chief or beginning of. Thus B'reshith is commonly translated as "In the beginning." So we can see this inside-outside relationship repeated in the rest of Genesis 1:1. The "heavens" surround the "earth." Much like Beth surrounds Resh. Reshith can also be seen to derive from the root Reshet which designates a woven net or network. An examination of the letter sequences in Genesis 1:1 demonstrates that the letters are all strictly arranged in a woven order. The order of the letters and words in Genesis 1:1 are explicitly defined. So ends the 1st verse of Genesis. In Hebrew, letters of the words are also understood as numbers.

Dr Ivan Panin born in December of 1855 was as a young man an active nihilist who participated in plots against the Czar. He was a mathematical genius whowas exiled from Russia, then after spending a number of years studying in Germany, he arrived in the US, where he became an outstanding lecturer on literary criticism. Panin was known as a firm agnostic, SO WELL KNOWN THAT WHEN HE ABANDONED AGNOSTISM FOR CHRISTIANITY, NEWSPAPERS CARRIED HEADLINES OF HIS CONVERSION! In 1890 Dr Panin made the discovery of the mathematical structures underlining The Scriptures. Panin carefully examining the Hebrew text
of Genesis 1:1 discovering an incredible phenomenon of a multiples of 7. Panin died as a Harvard teacher, scholar and a proud citizen of the USA in 1942.

Ivan Panin discovered literally thousands of mathematical patterns underlying The Scriptures before his death. Panin's book, The Inspiration of the Scriptures Scientifically Demonstrated discusses these phenomena extensively. Others have examined other literature in an attempt to duplicate his findings, to no avail. Panin's work is highly detailed and exhaustive. These few selected excerpts will be more than enough to convince the honest inquirer that the Bible is all it claims to be - the Holy, inspired, infallible Word of God. Panin supplied a representative of the Nobel Research Foundation with over 43,000 pages of his studies accompanied by his statement that this was his evidence that the Bible was the Word of God. Their reply was - "As far as our investigation has proceeded we find the evidence over-whelmingly in favor of such a statement."

When professors on the mathematics faculty at Harvard University were presented with this biblical phenomenon they naturally attempted to disprove its significance as a proof of divine authorship. However, after valiant efforts these professors were unable to duplicate this incredible mathematical phenomenon. The Harvard scientists used the English language and artificially assigned numeric values to the English alphabet. They had a potential vocabulary of over 400,000 available English words to choose from to construct a sentence about any topic they chose. Compare this to the limitations of word choices in the biblical Hebrew language
which has only 4500 available word choices that the writers of the Old Testament could use. Despite their advanced mathematical abilities and access to computers the mathematicians were unable to come close to incorporating 30 mathematical multiples of 7 as found in the Hebrew words of Genesis 1:1.

He challenged 9 noted rationalists and Bible critics through the New York Sun to publicly refute or give explanation for a few of his presented facts other than the obvious; that the Word of God was the product of a Divine Mastermind above all possibility of human construction, carrying within itself a self-checking and protecting factor to ensure against additions and subtractions to its text in the original languages. Four made lame excuses; the rest were silent. He issued a challenge throughout leading newspapers of the world to offer a natural explanation or refute the facts; not a single person has ever been able to do so.

The Bible's first verse comprises 7 Hebrew words formed from a total of 28 letters. Seven being the "NUMBER OF COMPLETENESS" is the most often found of a mathematical series of numbers and types which bind scripture together. The very first verse of the Bible, contains over 30 different combinations of seven. This verse has seven Hebrew words having a total of 28 letters 4 x 7. The numeric value of the three nouns "God", "heaven" and "earth" have together 14 letters, totaling the word number value
of 777. Anytime a number in triplicate value is found within the Sacred Text, it expresses completeness and final, ultimate or total meaning. Here are a few of the 30 some examples in Gen 1:1, of which I've given 3 already.

4. The sentence divides into two equal parts each containing 14 letters
5. The last four Hebrew words "the heavens and the earth" have 14 letters (7x2).
7. The numeric value of the verb, created, is 203, or 7 X 29.
8. The middle word (2 letters) and the one before it (5 letters) have 7 letters.
9. The middle word and the one after it have together 7 letters.
10. The fourth and fifth words have 7 letters
11. The sixth and seventh words have 7 letters
12. The numeric value of the first and last letters of the first half is 42, (7x6).
13. The number of letters in the four remaining words is also 14 (7x2 = 14)
14. The numeric value of the first and last letters of the second half is 91, (7x13).
15. The Hebrew numeric value of the first, middle and last letters is 133 (7x19).
16. The numeric value of the 1st and last letters of all 7 words is 1393 (7x199).
17. The 1st and last letters of all words, numeric value is 1,292, (7x199).
18. The 1st and last letters of the first and last words is 497, or 7 x 71.
19. The sum of the words 6 and 7 is 703, (19x37).

The 7 Hebrew words of the Bible's first verse, Genesis 1:1 in word order corresponding to their numerical values are respectively, 913, 203, 86, 401, 395, 407, and 296. The sum of these numbers is 2701, or 37x73. The factors of this sum are both prime numbers which further relates to 2701. 2701 is a triangular number, meaning it may naturally be resolved into the shape of an equilateral triangle. It is, in fact, the 73rd triangular number, meaning it is the sum of all the integers up to and including 73 (1+2+3...+73 = 2701). , being very important mathematically and geometrically.

Genesis 1:1 also reveals a remarkably accurate approximation of the The Constant PI.The Constant E of Euler's formula, that occurs naturally where a quantity increases at a rate proportional to its value. The Constant A which measures the strength with which subatomic particles interact with one another and with light: called the Atomic coupling constant. The Theorem of Pythagoras, etc ... ecetera.

More remarkable is the fact that, numerics fix the individual letters so that they cannot be changed. Hebrew is called a synthetic language, that is, the meaning expressed is indicated largely by the use of prefixes and suffixes. And in many cases the changing of a prefix completely reverses the meaning of the whole sentence. It is therefore important that the first and last letters of the words should be protected against alteration.

So what does all of this amount to? The fact that Genesis 1:1 defines a set of relations that really do describe creation, a complete creation!! Not just a physical theory described by a narrative, but as an unfolding set of universal mathematicial, topological and geometrically relationships.

Genesis I
Two - And the earth was (became, came to pass) without form, and void (a waste and a desolation); and darkness (obscure dark place) was upon the face (in front of, on the surface of) of the deep (abyss, grave, sea - also meaning peoples). And the Spirit (wind, breath, mind) of God (Elohim) moved (shake, move, hover) upon the face (in front of, on the surface of) of the waters (water - of danger, violence, transitory things).

Beth - Vath Ha-Aretz Hayah Toho Va Boho; Khoshek Paniym Tehhome. Ruwach Elohiym al Paniym Mayhim.

Then God begins the recreative process which according to Hebrew calendars days began at sunset though night and till the end of the next day beginning at sunset the next day. This DAY, not The Day has no numeral, ordinal, or cardinal qualifiers to limit it to a 24 hour period. And refers to a period of time, that has a beginning and an end.

What I'm basically saying is the earth became without form and void or a waste and a desolation, called The Katabole or Overthrow in the NT. So much more could be said! Gen 1:1 relates directly to Rev 21 and on, as a new heaven and earth. And Gen 1:2 and Rev 20 basically relate to each other directly as to Satan Fall. I'll just leave it as that, that the Heavens and Earth were COMPLETE, LACKING NOTHING!! Which was the 1st aeon, age, earth, ha'eretz; Not to be confused with dispensations of time in this 2nd earth age, which is now of grace. (2 Pet 3) I've talked to much already and haven't even touched the surface of just verse 1, let alone 2.

Heres a just few of the interesting references I used:
Bullingers Companion Bible
JPS 1917 Masoretic Bible
http://www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html
http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/
http://members.home.nl/frankcolijn/fran ... ndexEN.htm
 
Just a reminder... the topic is:

Things we can agree to disagree on.

Lets not get into all kinds of debates in this thread. The OP's objective was to branch out into other threads for debate.

ty.gif
 
Vic
Thanks :D

I can see many cool topics being started and would encourage members to take what they would like to discuss or debate and start a new thread.
It sounds like the Gap theory might be a good one.

Jg
 
jgredline said:
OK
Here is another one that ''perhaps'' we can agree to disagree on.

IMO the best english bibles are the KJV, NKJV, NASB and the ESV..

The worst NIV, RSV,

Books that call themselves bibles that should be burned. The message,

Any other for or against??

NOTE: This is not a KJV ONLY debate


Hi.
1. I don't believe the KJV is one of the 'best' Bibles for today. The rest I agree with.
2. I don't believe the NIV or the RSV are the worst. The RSV is basicallly an excellent literal translation. It has some 'spots' of course, that are bad. But, I can't throw out the baby with the bathwater. A simple pen correction works fine. The NIV could indeed be better. Try the HCSB. It's literal and extremely readable. Much more literal than the NIV.
3. The Message is gar-bage. Plain and simple. And it grows in popularity by the day. I don't think it should be burned, though.
4. Yeah!!! No more KJVO debates, please!
 
jgredline said:
Hi Steve
I do believe in the rapture and the millenial Kingdom. I believe the Bible is very clear on this and there is no disputing it. Its just a matter of when? So I disagree on your first point.

The church has not repalced Israel and replacement theology is wrong. We agree on your second point.

Here is what I believe in regards to your third point; God is one in Essence, but three in Persons. God has one Nature, but three Centers of Consciousness. That is, there is only one What in God, but there are three Whos; there is one It, but three Is. This is a mystery, but not a contradiction. It would be contradictory to say God was only one person, but also was three persons, or that God is only one nature but has three natures. But to declare, as orthodox Christians do, that God is one essence, eternally revealed in three distinct persons, is not a contradiction.
So I disagree with you on the third point.

I believe the Lord can come back and take his church anyday now. So again we disagree..

Can you explain what you believe the God head to be?

Blessings, Javier



I believe Jesus Christ is both Creator and Creature; God manifest in the flesh; the Eternal Father made visible; The only Person in the Godhead, apart from Whom there is no God.
 
I believe Jesus is God
I Believe Jesus parted the Red Sea for Moses
I Believe Jesus Spoke to Moses through the Burning bush
I believe Jesus wrestled with Jacob
I Believe Jesus shut the lions mouth in the den with Daniel
I believe Jesus destroyed Sodom
I Believe Jesus used Babylon to destroy the temple
I Believe it's Jesus' Word that we now call the Bible
I Believe Jesus and the Father are one

I Believe Jesus is God
 
reply

I simply believe that there are three distinct persons in one God. How that can be? I have no idea. Man cannot figure that out with his mind.




May God bless, golfjack
 
Atonement said:
I believe Jesus is God
I Believe Jesus parted the Red Sea for Moses
I Believe Jesus Spoke to Moses through the Burning bush
I believe Jesus wrestled with Jacob
I Believe Jesus shut the lions mouth in the den with Daniel
I believe Jesus destroyed Sodom
I Believe Jesus used Babylon to destroy the temple
I Believe it's Jesus' Word that we now call the Bible
I Believe Jesus and the Father are one

I Believe Jesus is God

Me too. This must mean that we are both Christians.
Can you imagine that there is actually folks in this forum who don't believe Jesus is God :o
 
Steve said:
I believe Jesus Christ is both Creator and Creature; God manifest in the flesh; the Eternal Father made visible; The only Person in the Godhead, apart from Whom there is no God.

This sounds like an oxymoran. Can you elborate a little more?
Thanks
Jg
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
My opinion is that our pets will be in heaven because the Bible says that God will take care of the affair of our hearts. In fact, I have asked God if I could be in charge of the animals and also have a White Tiger.



May God bless, golfjack

You really think animals will be in heaven? What do you think of Jesus statement, "My kingdom is not of this world"?
 
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