Bible Study This generation shall not pass,

[John the Baptist]

Quote: "Hey, we hardly agree at all, but I like dealing with this stuff, it sharpens my memory on chapter and verse and what biblical story is where. Thank you all. Keep firing the questions at me."

John

*****
Stuff?
As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be ..! & mens hearts failing them, when?

And when God states fact, it is stuff. Whatever? Sounds like more 'dual prophecy' of Titus 3:9-11's Vainness to me? :

And here I was thinking that we Born Again ones wanted to learn? :fadein: Well, maybe this is something New Lord? I know that YOU SAY there is NOTHING NEW, but ...

Or is it the same 'END TIME' story as with Virgin Israel's repeating? OK! Zephaniah 1:12 find a search with only candles??? And you say to read Zephaniah 1:13-18 for a time period? And yes, I understand that this is the 1 Peter 4:17 ones and not the Revelation 18:4 ones as of yet! :wink: (the 144000 of Revelation 12:17's same repeat, huh! :o )

---John

 

[Dave...]

I was taught that the prophecy of the destruction of the Temple and the prophecy of the second coming are to be separate. That this is actually a near/far prophecy. Many OT prophets would use a near prophecy (something that would be seen by the hearers) to authenticate the far prophecy (a future event that they would not see). I was taught that Jesus actually did the same thing here. The prophecy of the destruction of the Temple (near prophecy, they would see this in their life times), would authenticate the far prophecy (the one they would not be able to see themselves) of the signs of times and the second coming.

Any thoughts?

Dave

 

[noblej6]

Hi Dave,

The prophecy of the destruction of the Temple (near prophecy, they would see this in their life times), would authenticate the far prophecy (the one they would not be able to see themselves) of the signs of times and the second coming.

My comment would be that the coming of the son of man or parousia is immediately after the Gret Tribulation.

Matthew 24
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,

It says this about the Great tribulation...

21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

If it occurs in the far senario it is impossible for it to happen in the near and visa versa.

John

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi Dave,

The prophecy of the destruction of the Temple (near prophecy, they would see this in their life times), would authenticate the far prophecy (the one they would not be able to see themselves) of the signs of times and the second coming.

My comment would be that the coming of the son of man or parousia is immediately after the Gret Tribulation.

Matthew 24
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,

It says this about the Great tribulation...

21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

If it occurs in the far senario it is impossible for it to happen in the near and visa versa.

*******
John here: Hi young man, not quite strong enough yet! :wink: These verses are fact! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 I underlined my objection to 'only' a suggestion of a person having no faith?

/quote]
If it occurs in the far senario it is impossible for it to happen in the near and visa versa. John

 

[noblej6]

HI John the Baptist,

Matthew 24

21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

This event has not ocurred before....SO when this happens it says here it is biblically impossible for it to have happened before. It won't happen again either. Pretty basic.

Thanks for the young comment, that makes my day,

John

 

[Abiyah]

Hi Abiyah,

The generation of the fig tree and you use 1948.

1948 was 56 years ago. Most of you who use this argument also use 7 years as the length of the GREAT tribulation. That takes us to 63 years. It is not just that but the bible says it is those who see these things so a person has to be what...10 years old to comprehend what 1948 was. That is 73 years. If you calculate out how long a biblical generation is using Matthew 1:17 , I think you will find it is 41 years.

As you also pointed out Luke, in the parallel refers to all trees, so I choose to use the Maple tree of Canada and Canada became a country in 1867, so it was that generation that saw all these things. Well, it makes as much sense as anything else. The parable of the fig tree tells us that when we see the buds, summer is coming because trees bud in the spring and summer follows spring. This fig generation is more to bolster false doctrine than anything else. The fig argument is one of the least of importance of any that I have seen.

You mention tha Luke is talking about the final generation. Perhaps the final generation of the old covenant, but I already pointed out a verse that proves the parouisa is NOT the last or final generation of all time. Far from it. Rev 14:13.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."


Luke 21
9 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

In the final verses in the Scripture above, Jesus speaks of the great tribulation that shall come upon the earth BEFORE the Second Advent of Jesus Christ.

What Jesus is talking about in chapter 21 is the things that will happen leading up to the destruction of the tempole in Jerusalem That is His answer to the question in verse 7. AND yes, that great trib would come upon the earth before the coming of the son of man on the clouds.

[quote:2ceef]I believe that the first tribulation is the tribulation of the antichrist,he instead of christ, which is that old serpent, called the devil, and satan [ Rev 12:9-12]; coming first to this world, BEFORE Jesus, claiming to be the true Messiah. Jesus tells us that the deception of the end times (first tribulation- which is also the hour of temptation) will be so powerfull that nothing will ever again be so terrible

There is no such thing as the first tribulation because that would mean there would have to be a second tribulation. The Great tribulation has never happened before in creation and will never happen again. Nowhere does it say it is the worst, nowhere does it say that the most people died and nowhere does it say this is the whatever of anything, it simple says it has never happened before and never will again., How hard is that to understand anyway? How many events would there be that is followed by the coming of the son of man.

t,

nor has anything ever in the history of creation been so formidable a danger to the eternal soul: As it is written in the Book of Matthew.

Boy, we sure don't agree on much. The Great tribulation and the following parousia was the saving force of the eternal immortal soul.

So back to the fig tree theory. The part I like about it is that hopefully you will live long enough to know it wasn't true. If you recall even the WatchTower gave up on their 1914 theory by the mid nineties. Learning a doctrine isn't true has never changed much in religious history. They just develop a new theory and everyone marvels at how far off the mark that last thing was, or flatly deny that there ever was such a thing, but boy we sure have it pegged now.

SO the 1948 theory impresses me less than the old dual prophecy story.

Hey, we hardly agree at all, but I like dealing with this stuff, it sharpens my memory on chapter and verse and what biblical story is where. Thank you all. Keep firing the questions at me.

John[/quote:2ceef]

Gee John, You are kinda Harsh towards what I had written ! But that is okay, as I stated that it was " MY UNDERSTANDING" of the Parable, I quoted Scripture, and study The Word as best as I can, Praying always that the Lord lead, guide, and direct me, in thw wisdon & understanding of His Word, of His Truth. I never siad ANYTHING about 7 years either, as it is Written in the Book of Revealation that the time of the Great Tribulation had been shortened to 5 months, it also it written that Jesus Christ shortened the time or else no flesh would be saved. I though 1948, because that is in fact when Israel became a nation AGAIN; in the bible speaks of a 40 year generation, which has already passed ! a 70 year generation, and a 120 year generation. However, as you and I know no one knows the times of the Second Advent, or the exact moment and instant when the Great Tribulation will begin. I just basically post what "My Understanding " is , and that is why I usually state that when I join in Biblical conversations, and I also like to encourage others to check things out for themselves in the Word of God, And thank you for your response regarding " my understanding" of the Parable !

Abiyah

 

[Dave...]

If it occurs in the far senario it is impossible for it to happen in the near and visa versa.

I agree and would not seperate the tribulation from the second coming. But I would seperate it from the destruction of the temple, which happened in AD 70.

Dave

 

[John the Baptist]

HI John the Baptist,

Matthew 24

21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

This event has not ocurred before....SO when this happens it says here it is biblically impossible for it to have happened before. It won't happen again either. Pretty basic.

Thanks for the young comment, that makes my day,

John

:fadein: John here:
The Flood! S.& G.! 70AD's Slaughter! And then of course, the repeat of history. And no, each event was not the same event, yet, each event was a GREAT TRIBULATION! Christ even stated them as examples!

Now: If you go back to my original post, I had stated that the reason that God said it was repeated (in either direction) was that it happened so rarely, that God told us it this way instead of the many times in the reverse. Such as Nahum 1:9 'Sin will not arise a second time' & the likes of the rainbow, telling us that there will be NO WORLD FLOOD a SECOND TIME. (there are but so few others, we are told when it is done that way!) Even the Mark of the Beast has a counter part to check the Godhead out for Truth with!

And Israel's slaughter? 70 AD & Ezekiel 9:4-6 is the counterpart of the 666 folly's ending, both directions! "That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past." :o

PS: And your quoted verse of Matthew 24:21
"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."
Surely tell's of the worst time of repeats! But even then, there are most likely many more folks involved.

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the Baptist,

This verse is gnawin' at you, isn't it. Well, it should be.

PS: And your quoted verse of Matthew 24:21
"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."
Surely tell's of the worst time of repeats! But even then, there are most likely many more folks involved.

The first part of the sentsnce Jesus Christ spoke was.....

"For then there will be a great tribulation,...............Jesus puts a name to this event or uses a phrase to describe the event. Jesus called it the GREAT tribulation. Can you find any other time of trouble that was called the GREAT tribulation. I'm not talking about some rotten time in history like the flood, I'm not talking about a horendous time of history which WE named the holocaust, I'm talking about a time of disredsss that Jesus Christ HIMSELF called the GREAT tribulation and that event was followed by the coming of the son of man on the clouds.

Can you find any event in history or biblical accounts that fill this bill? Can you locate any event past, present or future that is equal to this event? An event where Jesus asks for prayer for His followers to flee a certain area to avoid this time of distress?

That is the GREAT tribulation that this verse talks about and that event only happens once in all of creation. YOur repeats mean absolutely nothing concerning the great TRIBULATION because the verse goes on to say............such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."

Actually most have given up on this argument years ago and I find it kind of amazing that you are still out there promoting this. The GREAT tribulation does not repeat, meaning that certain things in conjuction with that don't repeat either. The sun comes up and the sun goes down, people are born and people die. Those things repeat as Ecclesiastes said, but the great trib doesn't repeat. As you say the flood doesn't repeat either. Many things do repeat, but the GREAT tribulation IS NOT one of them.

You discuss the destruction of the first temple a bit and use some more 'in house' jargon of whatever denomination or TV evangelist leader you follow and unfortunately it is like the folds talked about earlier I have no idea of your biblical meaning.
It may have biblical merit, I don't now because I am not privy to the jargon or nomeclature that you use.

Before you carry this on I would like to see your interpretation of the GREAT tribulation that occurs only once. Show why you feel justified in going against the word of Jesus Christ Himself and saying that the GREAT tribulation repeats when He specoifically states it will not. If you don't have biblical justification for this you do not have a case. The verses from Ecclesiaastes are only a guess on your part and that guess includes application to the Olivet Discourse which is nothing but another guess...not good enough, not even close.

Here's the verse, what does it mean?

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."

John

 

[noblej6]

Hi Dave,

agree and would not seperate the tribulation from the second coming. But I would seperate it from the destruction of the temple, which happened in AD 70.

Yes, I understand. That seems to be the common consensus on this website,

I do connect the tribulation to the destructon of 70 AD because of the folowing reasons:
1)I read this verse as it comes of the page.

34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

2) That fits with the 'end' occurring as it states in Matthew 24:14....
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Which Paul says is complete here
Col 1
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

That reconciles with what it says about the end here:

Hebrews 9
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Because the last days are first century as it says here:

Acts 2
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Plus there are verses which show that the coming was in the first century such as

Matthew 10
23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

John 21
23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

There are prepared resposes to those verses made up by most denominations but there isn't yet for this one so this is the verse I would like to see your response to:

Rev 2
25Only hold on to what you have until I come.

Possibiliies are......
1) Jesus lied to these people
2) These people are sill holding
OR 3) Jesus come before Thyatira ceased to exist.

So what are your reasons for separating the two?

John

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi John the Baptist,

This verse is gnawin' at you, isn't it. Well, it should be. ... ??

****
Hi, do you surface read? :fadein:
Reread my post. It does not say as you think! (I hope)
Lets say that one has a 5" index finger. The first knuckle gets chopped off. A tribulation of sorts. Then a repeat, the second joint is also gone by, by, another tribulation. And on & ON until the very last Great tribulation of History has repeated! As God tell's us in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15!!

No, I believe God, His WORD does not eat at me. :fadein:

The Ending of professed sincere folk, do go 'gnawin' at me though! That is why Ezekiel 9:4 is a two edged sword. Check out Exodus 32:30-33 for what true love is.

--John

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the baptist,

Surface read? You mean like missing this ten times in a row.......

Matthew 24
21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.


HAS NOT OCCURRED SINCE THE BEGINNING ..........NOR EVER WILL....

What does that mean.?

John

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi John the baptist,

Surface read? You mean like missing this ten times in a row.......

Matthew 24
21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.


HAS NOT OCCURRED SINCE THE BEGINNING ..........NOR EVER WILL....

What does that mean.?

John

********
Hay blind buddy! :wink: Reread the original post again, you missed 'seeing' something. Who said that the last one was not future????If it does not happen the same way, God tells us this! Yet, as there were no more exact S. & G. destructions, God gave repeated '+' examples! Jude 6-7 or Luke 17:26-31

---John

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the Baptist,

No, I think its about time you answered a question for me...

Matthew 24

21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.


HAS NOT OCCURRED SINCE THE BEGINNING ..........NOR EVER WILL....

What does that mean.?

John

 

[John the Baptist]

John here: You ask what the below verse means??? It depends on when you believe that the Everlasting Gospel got its start?? Revelation 14:6. (The Word of God)

It is kind of like the devil quoting the promises of Christ's Word to Him in Matthew 4:6. You know, they are almost all conditional. Yet, the Everlasting condition was not used in the verse quoted by satan, huh? Hebrews 13:20's Everlasting CONDITIONAL COVENANT. If one started as the Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 verses do, then we can see that each tribulation (of many) grow in wrath until the last one.

Which I ask you, which 'tribulation' will be the very last one?? Perhaps you see hell in better light than the Word of God describes???
Or even 2 Peter 3:10-12 furture 'tribulation'??

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the Baptist,

When a person is promoting a false religious doctrine it is imperative that they deflect any and all conversations away from that which will expose the truth. That is what you are doing here, it's no big deal, we see this all the time. That in itself proves you are wrong. If you weren't promoting a false doctrine you could biblical answer the question.

No one disputes that there is tribulation somewhere, all the time. We are discussing the GREAT tribulation of Matthew 24. That only occurs once and every serious, even semi serious bible reader knows that.

Which I ask you, which 'tribulation' will be the very last one?? Perhaps you see hell in better light than the Word of God describes???
Or even 2 Peter 3:10-12 furture 'tribulation'??

There is no end to earthly tribulation or times of distress. Somewhere in the earthly domain bad things can happen. I see Hell as being the place I would rather not learn too much about. Hell would be for those who go against Galations 1:8.

2 Peter 3:10 is part of a group of statements that have various meanings, but I won't deal with that until we finish with this one and only GREAT tribulation.

So what does this mean?

21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.


HAS NOT OCCURRED SINCE THE BEGINNING ..........NOR EVER WILL....

Let's see.......if it hasn't happened before, any time a tribulation comes along it means that absolutely none of the tribulations before were actually the GREAT tribulation because it has NOT OCURRED since the beginning. After this GREAT tribulation there will not be a GREAT tribulation again.

As you may or may not know, Jesus parousia occurs immediately after the GREAT tribulation because the coming of the son on the clouds is part of that celestial display talked about in the Olivet Discourse.

What you are trying to tell me is that there are multiple parousias. DO you realize how plain and simply wrong that is? Like you don't have a chance of getting biblical aware people to even come close to swallowing this.

So once again........

HAS NOT OCCURRED SINCE THE BEGINNING ..........NOR EVER WILL....

What does it mean?

John

 

[Dave...]

Hey noblej6

So what are your reasons for separating the two?

Well, I take "this generation" to mean what it says. Basically the same way that we would take it if it were spoken today. The problem, as I see it, is if "this generation" was speaking of the generation at the time when Jesus spoke these words, then the tribulation and second coming would have happened long ago (1st century AD). Same thing if He was speaking of the Generation that would see the temple destroyed.

We know that the destruction of the temple happened at about AD 70. We also know that Jesus has not come again for the second time. So our options are limited in how we can interpret chapter 24. I don't think that it's a stretch to interpret it as I have. Actually, I think that it's the most logical fit. I open to learn though.

BTW,I do believe that these are one time acts.

Dave

 

[noblej6]

Hi Dave,

The problem, as I see it, is if "this generation" was speaking of the generation at the time when Jesus spoke these words, then the tribulation and second coming would have happened long ago (1st century AD). Same thing if He was speaking of the Generation that would see the temple destroyed.

That is about the size of it yes.

You have concluded that Jesus will come physically to earth and that there will be a future GREAT tribulation at that time. You are not alone in concluding that, others do too.

The alternative conclusion is what I get from the scripture. That is that the second coming which is future to us occurs in the spiritual invisible realm, therefore it could occur in the first century because only those in the spirit are privy to what goes on. When we die we become part of that spiritual world as well. Therefore I consider the GREAT trib and the parousia to have already happened in the first century. The GREAT trib was the destruction of Jerusalem and the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven took place then as Jesus made His return. His return was a spiritual or invisible return which no mortal witnessed or recorded.

Please anyone, point out some verse that would contradict what I have mentioned here. I want to see what others can come up with to refute my interpretation. Well, it isn't my interpretation it is the majority belief of the Christian religion and I agree with it.

John

 

[Cameron]

I am in spiritual concrete with Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 keeping me in the Narrow Pathway. (+ 2 Timothy 3:16 & Matthew 4:4)

If there is no repeat, because it is so rare, Christ tells us of it instead of the reverse! Rainbow for one, and Nahum 1:9 for just one more of the few! So??? I just do not wast time with anything that disagrees with these verses!

OK - let's see what your saying Jonny B.

Ecc 1:9 What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there a thing of which it is said, "See, this is new"? It has been already in the ages before us.

(Interpretation): There's nothing new under the sun. OK, am I to understand that computers and the internet where once before or are we dealing with abstract ideas like the Fibonacci Series? Spiritually speaking are you saying that the idea of a pre and post tribuational Rapture was hotly debated in Solomon's day? i don't get your point. But I do get the point of the Scriptures: Put the two verses back into their context of verse 8 and 11 and voila - "people strive for the same vain glories in life generation after generation" and furthermore what they strove for is forgotten and fades into history.

So the fact that people make the same vain-glorious mistakes in life keeps you on the narrow pathway by adding:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness
And I would add that this is so that we can be complete for every good work. Cool.
Mat 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
And yes, we should be living according to God’s Word in all we say and do. Great, I’m on track with you here.

Not quite sure about the “no repeat†and “instead of the reverse†phrases. Anybody want to help me out here?

Nah 1:9 What do you plot against the LORD? He will make a complete end; trouble will not rise up a second time.

So you don’t waste your time with anything that disagrees with these verses. Great, I don’t either. Let’s see what Nahum 1:9 is about:

Saying that God is making a complete end is parallel to the idea of allowing the trouble you are destroying to note rise again.

OK – so what meaning do you pour into these verses that give you your interpretative framework?

 

[Cameron]

Hi, do you surface read?
Reread my post. It does not say as you think! (I hope)
Lets say that one has a 5" index finger. The first knuckle gets chopped off. A tribulation of sorts. Then a repeat, the second joint is also gone by, by, another tribulation. And on & ON until the very last Great tribulation of History has repeated! As God tell's us in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15!!

This isn't to me, but I'll respond since I don't surface read. Rather, I like looking at Scriptures in their context as I hope we all do and what I understand you doing is taking these Scriptures out of their context to make a point with them that they were never intended to make.

These passages have as much to do with repeating tribulations as they do with repeating industrial revolutions. That's something new under the sun. My digital watch is something new under the sun. A 100 story building is something new under the sun.

You now add:
Ecc 3:15 That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.

but the context of it, particularly verses 12 thru 21 point to the same vainglorious propensities of mankind to persue the same stupid and worthless things. It has nothing to do with repeats!