Thomas didn't believe Jesus is God

[Runningman]

Thomas words "My lord and my God" are often misunderstood by some to be a declaration on Thomas' part about his belief Jesus is God. However, Jesus directly contradicted Thomas' words, saying that Thomas' God is the Father. Since the Father is the only true God (John 17:3) that means Jesus isn't God and no one in the Bible believed Jesus is God.

Jesus referred to Thomas and the rest of his disciples as his brother.

Matthew 12​

49Pointing to His disciples, he said, “Here are My mother and My brothers​

Jesus told Mary to deliver a message to Thomas and his other brothers about who their God is:

John 20​

17“Do not cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell my brothers, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”​

Jesus said his God is the Father and that the God of his brothers is also the Father. That means Thomas didn't believe Jesus is God.

 

[Josef]

Thomas words "My lord and my God" are often misunderstood by some to be a declaration on Thomas' part about his belief Jesus is God. However, Jesus directly contradicted Thomas' words, saying that Thomas' God is the Father. Since the Father is the only true God (John 17:3) that means Jesus isn't God and no one in the Bible believed Jesus is God.

Jesus referred to Thomas and the rest of his disciples as his brother.

Matthew 12​

49Pointing to His disciples, he said, “Here are My mother and My brothers​

Jesus told Mary to deliver a message to Thomas and his other brothers about who their God is:

John 20​

17“Do not cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell my brothers, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”​

Jesus said his God is the Father and that the God of his brothers is also the Father. That means Thomas didn't believe Jesus is God.

Hey All,
John 17:3 is part of a prayer. Thomas is not contradicted here. This is between Father and Son. John set forth who Jesus is in the first verse of his gospel. That has not changed here.

Thomas' confession of belief in who Jesus is, is in fact accepted by Jesus. Jesus tells Thomas you see me and believe. That is acceptance of Thomas' statement as true.

Otherwise, if Jesus were to falsely accept praise reserved for God, that would make Jesus a liar. Thomas spoke the truth. Jesus, being the truth, accepted Thomas' statement.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Randy]

The Fathers testimony about His Son and He didn't believe Jesus was His God either and acknowledged Jesus's companions. Therefore it must be lawful to call Jesus God.

You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

 

[Runningman]

Hey All,
John 17:3 is part of a prayer. Thomas is not contradicted here. This is between Father and Son. John set forth who Jesus is in the first verse of his gospel. That has not changed here.

Thomas' confession of belief in who Jesus is, is in fact accepted by Jesus. Jesus tells Thomas you see me and believe. That is acceptance of Thomas' statement as true.

Otherwise, if Jesus were to falsely accept praise reserved for God, that would make Jesus a liar. Thomas spoke the truth. Jesus, being the truth, accepted Thomas' statement.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Jesus responded to Thomas with "Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Meaning that Thomas was not being praised. Jesus inferred Thomas is not blessed for requiring material evidence of his resurrection in order to be a believer. Thomas was alone in this regard.

In this context, Thomas is referring to the Father as God when he said "my God." Thomas certainly didn't contradict Jesus on this point.

 

[Runningman]

The Fathers testimony about His Son and He didn't believe Jesus was His God either and acknowledged Jesus's companions. Therefore it must be lawful to call Jesus God.

You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

That isn't calling him God. It's reiterating that the God is his God. This is all in the context and self-evident by the fact that he had companions to be anointed above. God Himself is already above all and doesn't require an anointing to be elevated.

 

[Randy]

That isn't calling him God. It's reiterating that the God is his God. This is all in the context and self-evident by the fact that he had companions to be anointed above. God Himself is already above all and doesn't require an anointing to be elevated.

"That the God" or "therefore God" isn't stating He is God? It's not possible to have a honest dialogue with you.

 

[Runningman]

"That the God" or "therefore God" isn't stating He is God?

"God, your God" is just reiterating that the God being referenced is his God.

It's not possible to have a honest dialogue with you.

??

You're quoting Hebrews 1:8 which is a direct quote from Psalm 45 about a human king with a queen. God or Jesus don't have a queen my friend. I hope that helps. God bless.

 

[journeyman]

Thomas didn't believe Jesus is God.

They all came to know Jesus is no different from His Father.

And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing upinto heaven? this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Act.1:11

In like manner. There's an witness with a sense of humor!

 

[Runningman]

They all came to know Jesus is no different from His Father.

They're different in many ways, but yes in knowing the Son of God you can also know God Himself.

And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing upinto heaven? this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Act.1:11

In like manner. There's an witness with a sense of humor!

Yes, in like manner: Jesus "taken" to heaven by God and then being brought back by God.

 

[1pet2_9]

A classic example of missing the forest for the trees. Thomas plainly witnessed Jesus being crucified. Then he plainly witnessed Jesus having power over death itself with his own two eyes and own two hands. He stated his doubts in very certain terms, and he then saw the need to express that his doubts had been fully satisfied; which he did. Power over death itself can only be given by the Creator of life.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" in John 10, and that is every bit as much God's inerrant Word as John 20. What Jesus sees, God sees; what Jesus does, God does; what power Jesus has, God has. Jesus and the Father are one, just as John 10 and John 20 are one: one book of the Bible.

 

[Randy]

"God, your God" is just reiterating that the God being referenced is his God.

He called Jesus God as I read and you completely ignore as you do everywhere in regard to the Son who was or the nature found in Him. Yes the Father stated He was Jesus's God just as Jesus states the Father is His God. In fact the entire Hebrews 1 is contrasting Jesus's Sonship to the angels of God and clearly a Sonship that existed before the creation.

??

You're quoting Hebrews 1:8 which is a direct quote from Psalm 45 about a human king with a queen. God or Jesus don't have a queen my friend. I hope that helps. God bless.

Except the writer of Hebrews wrote it in regard to about the Son. I do believe Hebrews has more citations then any other book in the NT.

As I stated the Father referred to the Son as God.

 

[1pet2_9]

To repeat my post in another thread:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". John 1:1
"The same was with God in the beginning." John 1:2


So unless this inerrant Scripture is, too, "frequently misunderstood" as well, then yes: Jesus is the Word; Jesus is God. I'm reading the same context and the same Bible as everyone else.

 

[Runningman]

He called Jesus God as I read and you completely ignore as you do everywhere in regard to the Son who was or the nature found in Him.

Will you please exegete God being a human being with a queen who himself has a God that needed to anoint him above his companions?

Yes the Father stated He was Jesus's God

Verse?

just as Jesus states the Father is His God.

Amen.

In fact the entire Hebrews 1 is contrasting Jesus's Sonship to the angels of God and clearly a Sonship that existed before the creation.

Where do you see that?

Except the writer of Hebrews wrote it in regard to about the Son.

There's more context about who this is referring to in Psalms 45. Psalms 45 refers to this person as a man with a queen which is not a description of the Son. I would offer that since this is in regards to a man then either "God, your God" is just a reiteration that it's about a man with a God or perhaps a man who is a god, emphasis on little g.

I do believe Hebrews has more citations then any other book in the NT.

Yes.

As I stated the Father referred to the Son as God.

I don't think so.

 

[journeyman]

They're different in many ways, but yes in knowing the Son of God you can also know God Himself.

Oh dear believer, They aren't different at all. In knowing you I can know God. In knowing me you can know God, but only as we follow His example,
In knowing Jesus we know God Himself,

Yes, in like manner: Jesus "taken" to heaven by God and then being brought back by God.

And as God,

the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up...the coming day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pet.3:10,12 KJV

the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God ...2Thes.1:7 KJV

 

[Runningman]

Then he plainly witnessed Jesus having power over death itself with his own two eyes and own two hands.

Verse?

He stated his doubts in very certain terms, and he then saw the need to express that his doubts had been fully satisfied; which he did.

True.

Power over death itself can only be given by the Creator of life.

That isn't in the narrative of John 20.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" in John 10, and that is every bit as much God's inerrant Word as John 20.

And in John 17:21 Jesus also stated that the disciples could be one with them. Being one with God isn't a reference to being God.

What Jesus sees, God sees; what Jesus does, God does; what power Jesus has, God has.

That isn't true. The power and/or authority Jesus had he was given. God doesn't need anyone to give Him anything.

Jesus and the Father are one, just as John 10 and John 20 are one: one book of the Bible.

That's true, but I don't see how that follows your premise. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[journeyman]

To repeat my post in another thread:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". John 1:1
"The same was with God in the beginning." John 1:2

So unless this inerrant Scripture is, too, "frequently misunderstood" as well, then yes: Jesus is the Word; Jesus is God. I'm reading the same context and the same Bible as everyone else.

Problem is theologians perverted the Bible by teaching God could be seperated from His Word.

 

[Runningman]

To repeat my post in another thread:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". John 1:1
"The same was with God in the beginning." John 1:2


So unless this inerrant Scripture is, too, "frequently misunderstood" as well, then yes: Jesus is the Word; Jesus is God. I'm reading the same context and the same Bible as everyone else.

There's a broader context and it actually doesn't just come right out and say "Jesus is God" in such explicit terms. For example, Jesus is a he and the word is the logos that 1 John 1:1,2 calls an it. Jesus isn't an it. I would offer you that the Word (logos - a word, speech, or utterance) is being personified.

That isn't unprecedented. In Proverbs 8 wisdom is also personified, but we don't call wisdom an entirely separate person. John was writing poetically about something. To the original readers there would have been no misunderstanding that it was calling a man Lord God Almighty.

 

[Randy]

Will you please exegete God being a human being with a queen who himself has a God that needed to anoint him above his companions?

Just as soon as you tell me who you are speaking of that was exalted above every name by God who isn't Jesus.
Clearly Jesus as stated by the writer of Hebrews was who the Spirit was speaking of.

Verse?

Already given. Therefore God your God..

Amen.


Where do you see that?

Where do I see what? That God created through the Son? Or about the Son?

?

There's more context about who this is referring to in Psalms 45. Psalms 45 refers to this person as a man with a queen which is not a description of the Son. I would offer that since this is in regards to a man then either "God, your God" is just a reiteration that it's about a man with a God or perhaps a man who is a god, emphasis on little g.

Again who is it referring to? The writer of Hebrews says about the Son. Are you stating that's not Jesus? The very one God gave all authority in heaven and earth to so much so that only in respect to His own throne would the Father be greater in authority.

Yes.

I don't think so.

I read so and to me its because of the nature given to dwell in that Son alone by God. Col 1:19 Col 2:9
Just as the nature found in the word of life.
Therefore God Your God....

 

[Runningman]

Oh dear believer, They aren't different at all. In knowing you I can know God. In knowing me you can know God, but only as we follow His example,
In knowing Jesus we know God Himself,

Knowing God by knowing Jesus doesn't mean they are the same person.

And as God,

the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up...the coming day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pet.3:10,12 KJV

the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God ...2Thes.1:7 KJV

He returns in like manner. Taken to heaven and brought back. 1 Thessalonians 4 says God brings Jesus.

14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

 

[Runningman]

Just as soon as you tell me who you are speaking of that was exalted above every name by God who isn't Jesus.
Clearly Jesus as stated by the writer of Hebrews was who the Spirit was speaking of.

Who gave Jesus the name above every name? Who exalted Jesus?

Already given. Therefore God your God..

God having a God isn't a biblical concept. Christianity is monotheism. The explanation I provided you preserves the integrity of monotheism.

Where do I see what? That God created through the Son? Or about the Son?

Where do you see a Sonship that existed before creation?

Again who is it referring to? The writer of Hebrews says about the Son. Are you stating that's not Jesus? The very one God gave all authority in heaven and earth to so much so that only in respect to His own throne would the Father be greater in authority.

In Hebrews 1 and Psalm 45, it's evident that the mentioned king isn't the highest God. The king is blessed by God, has a queen, and is clearly a human king, not the highest God. It's also clear that the Psalm 45 passage isn't originally about Jesus because the king in it has a queen.

So, the initial statement in Psalm 45:6 isn't really talking about Jesus originally; it's about an Old Testament king. However, people later connected it to Jesus. If we say the king is called "God" in that verse, it would mean both Solomon and Jesus are considered God, which doesn't make sense. There's no clear reason to associate Psalm 45:6 with the Messiah unless verse 7 is also applied to the same king. Doing that would be reading into the text (eisegesis).

I read so and to me its because of the nature given to dwell in that Son alone by God. Col 1:19 Col 2:9

The divine nature is something that Christians partake in.

Just as the nature found in the word of life.
Therefore God Your God....

I don't think so for some of the above stated reasons. We could say "god" and that would probably be ok.