Thomas didn't believe Jesus is God

[Runningman]

It concerns both our Lords' 1st and 2nd coming. Here is the 2nd advent,

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pet.3:10 KJV

day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Thes.5:2 KJV

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2Cor.5:10 KJV

Okay thanks for sharing your opinion about that topic.

 

[Runningman]

How do you read Hebrews 11:3?
Clearly speaking of the creation was formed at Gods command. Same exact word in the koine Greek.
The same context the translators gave in Hebrews 1:2.

through Whom also He made the worlds
through whom he made the universe

God made the ages, the messianic age/church age through the Son. It has nothing to do with creating the phyiscal universe through the Son. There is no mention of this happening in scripture.

tn Grk “the ages.” The temporal (ages) came to be used of the spatial (what exists in those time periods). See Heb 11:3 for the same usage.

G165. aión
Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

HELPS Word-studies
165 aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).

Example: Christians today live in the newer age (165 /aiṓn) of the covenant – the time-period called the NT. It is characterized by Christ baptizing all believers in the Holy Spirit, i.e. engrafting all believers (OT, NT) into His mystical body (1 Cor 12:13) with all the marvelous privileges that go with that (Gal 3:23-25; 1 Pet 2:5,9).

Heb 11:3
11 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see. 2 For by it the people of old[a] received God’s commendation.[b] 3 By faith we understand that the worlds[c] were set in order at God’s command,[d] so that the visible has its origin in the invisible.

It's comparing the ages (something invisible) with faith (something invisible). You cannot literally see faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

There's a broader context and it actually doesn't just come right out and say "Jesus is God" in such explicit terms. For example, Jesus is a he and the word is the logos that 1 John 1:1,2 calls an it. Jesus isn't an it. I would offer you that the Word (logos - a word, speech, or utterance) is being personified.

That isn't unprecedented. In Proverbs 8 wisdom is also personified, but we don't call wisdom an entirely separate person. John was writing poetically about something. To the original readers there would have been no misunderstanding that it was calling a man Lord God Almighty.

Could you please post the verse where you see the word IT and underline please.

I think I know what you mean, but I'd like to make sure.

 

[Runningman]

Its not a matter of required its a matter of proper translation into english.
Here is a list of 20+ translations into English by trained translators. They all tend to favor a child born who has Gods nature. A Son given. And the authority shall rest on that Son. Are we influenced by the revelation of the Word who is called God and became flesh. Probably.

You are adding the word "nature." God's nature isn't what we are talking about here. God is a person. God isn't a nature.

I myself don't need to work on that as I do and can acknowledge the Fathers nature in the Son. And still hold to one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

Work on it. You once again added "nature" when we are not talking about that.

You don't hold to all that is stated but I do.

I hold it. You don't.

Perhaps you are the one who needs to study.
1Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Study more. There is one, singular, God known as the Father.

"yet for us there is but one God, the Father"

That's like stating the church and the NT are not about Jesus.
I think its about the nature found in the Son.

The NT and the church are about Jesus. Why do you keep saying the word nature?

Yes He did apply it to Jesus and I hold to his understanding.

He understood that Psalm 45 isn't literally about Jesus. It's about Solomon and Solomon isn't being called Lord God Almighty in Hebrews 1:8.

Its about the nature found in that Son and I do state Son.

It was done with scripture let it speak to us. I meant I have given it 3 or 4 times already.

For in him all the fullness of deity lives[a] in bodily form, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
(a)
Colossians 2:9 sn In him all the fullness of deity lives. The present tense in this verse (“lives”) is significant. Again, as was stated in the note on Col 1:19, this is not a temporary dwelling, but a permanent one. Paul’s point is polemical against the idea that the fullness of God dwells anywhere else, as the Gnostics believed, except in Christ alone.

If Christ were God, it wouldn't make sense to say that the fullness of God lived in him because, being God, he would always have that fullness. The fact that Christ could have the fullness of God dwelling in him actually shows that he wasn't God. In 2 Peter 1:4, it says that through God's promises, we can "participate in the divine nature." Having a "divine nature" doesn't make us God, and it didn't make Christ God either.

Begotten from the Father alone before all worlds. The beginning of the creation of the Father.
The gifting of the Fathers nature Col 1:19 to dwell in that begotten Son
In Him and by Him and through Him that nature created. God created by Him.

Here we go again. Begin with verse 15 where it says he is the "image of the invisible God."


These verses start y saying the image [eikon] of the invisible God." If Christ were "God," the verse would just say so, not that he was the "image" of God. The Father is clearly called "God" in many places, and this would be a good opportunity to say Jesus was God. Instead, we're told that Christ is the image of God. If one thing is the "image" of another, then the "image" and the "original" are not the same. The Father is God, which is why there's no verse calling the Father the image of God. Calling Jesus the image of God fits well with his statement, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9 and 10).

The Father living in Him doing His work. Jesus attributed the Fathers works He performed as a testimony that the Father is in Him and He in the Father. They are one.

And he said his disciples are one with them too. That means Jesus isn't God.

John 17
21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

 

[Randy]

You are adding the word "nature." God's nature isn't what we are talking about here. God is a person. God isn't a nature.

The Fathers nature would be a Divine nature. Are you really claiming ignorance in that reasoning? The meaning is clear. The fullness of the Fathers Deity. Hebrews 1:3
Col 2:9-10
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

Work on it. You once again added "nature" when we are not talking about that.

We are discussing the one that the fullness of the Father Deity dwells In. Christ Jesus

I hold it. You don't.

Lets see -you believe that all things came through Jesus in the same context that all things came from the Father? If not you don't hold to all that verse states. I hold to all of it.
REf:1 Corinthians 8:6

The NT and the church are about Jesus. Why do you keep saying the word nature?

Its in regard to our discussion about the fullness of Deity that dwells in the Son. I refer to that Deity as the Fathers nature. That would be the nature of the Word or Word of life.

He understood that Psalm 45 isn't literally about Jesus. It's about Solomon and Solomon isn't being called Lord God Almighty in Hebrews 1:8.

He wrote "about the Son" was that Solomon or Christ Jesus? Since He didn't write anything in regard to Solomon your grasping at straws. He wrote what He wrote by His understanding in who the Spirit was pointing to.

If Christ were God, it wouldn't make sense to say that the fullness of God lived in him because, being God, he would always have that fullness. The fact that Christ could have the fullness of God dwelling in him actually shows that he wasn't God. In 2 Peter 1:4, it says that through God's promises, we can "participate in the divine nature." Having a "divine nature" doesn't make us God, and it didn't make Christ God either.

Are you bringing up the Divine nature? Wasn't a distinction made in that regard between what Jesus received vs what we received? in Col 2:9-10
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
If He was coeternal that would be reasonable. In Him is not Him but others state He is the only begotten unbegotten Son. (begotten but not made) I don't state that but I do acknowledge the fullness of the Fathers Deity that was pleased to dwell in Him. As the nature found in Him. (God)
Col 1:19
You have this from the Father? In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Your hand laid the foundations of the world?
You are the true vine that nourishes the branches?
All in Christ are held together in you and live through you?

Are you seriously stating you believe you have all that Jesus has been given in regard to the fullness of Deity?

The Father is in Him. He is in us. Isn't that a stated difference? So in Him God dwells. I guess you believe in us a glorified man dwells is that what you believe?

Here we go again. Begin with verse 15 where it says he is the "image of the invisible God."

Why if you can't agree the first 5 or 6 times why should we go through that again?

These verses start y saying the image [eikon] of the invisible God." If Christ were "God," the verse would just say so, not that he was the "image" of God. The Father is clearly called "God" in many places, and this would be a good opportunity to say Jesus was God. Instead, we're told that Christ is the image of God. If one thing is the "image" of another, then the "image" and the "original" are not the same. The Father is God, which is why there's no verse calling the Father the image of God. Calling Jesus the image of God fits well with his statement, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9 and 10).

Was any other son referred to as the image of the invisible God?
Did anybody here state the Father isn't God? In fact I believe the Father is the only true God. As I have stated over and over all the fullness of the Fathers Deity that dwells in Jesus. Col 1:19 and that's not born again. He is all that the Father is and in that context He is God.

Do you believe Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit?

And he said his disciples are one with them too. That means Jesus isn't God.

Oneness not what was given.
That they may be one as we are one. The Father in Him and He in us.

John 17
21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me

Again that is in regard to oneness not what was gifted. Col 2:9-10 ; Col 1:19

 

[Randy]

God made the ages, the messianic age/church age through the Son. It has nothing to do with creating the phyiscal universe through the Son. There is no

Clear disagreement with several translation teams as to the meaning.
Same word used here and Christ wasn't mentioned.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the [c]worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds[c] were set in order at God’s command,[d] so that the visible has its origin in the invisible.
Translation notes not Concordence
Ages is Plural as in all that exists in all those time periods Hence worlds or as some state universe.
tn Grk “ages.” The temporal (ages) came to be used of the spatial (what exists in those time periods). See Heb 1:2 for same usage.

mention of this happening in scripture.


G165. aión
Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

HELPS Word-studies
165 aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).

Example: Christians today live in the newer age (165 /aiṓn) of the covenant – the time-period called the NT. It is characterized by Christ baptizing all believers in the Holy Spirit, i.e. engrafting all believers (OT, NT) into His mystical body (1 Cor 12:13) with all the marvelous privileges that go with that (Gal 3:23-25; 1 Pet 2:5,9).


It's comparing the ages (something invisible) with faith (something invisible). You cannot literally see faith.

 

[Runningman]

The Fathers nature would be a Divine nature. Are you really claiming ignorance in that reasoning? The meaning is clear. The fullness of the Fathers Deity. Hebrews 1:3
Col 2:9-10
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

Do you know who the Deity is? The Deity is the Father. The Father is God.

We are discussing the one that the fullness of the Father Deity dwells In. Christ Jesus

I'm discussing who God is. God isn't a nature.

Lets see -you believe that all things came through Jesus in the same context that all things came from the Father? If not you don't hold to all that verse states. I hold to all of it.
REf:1 Corinthians 8:6

The one God is the Father. The Lord of the church is Jesus. There is a specific context here and a divine hierarcny.

Its in regard to our discussion about the fullness of Deity that dwells in the Son. I refer to that Deity as the Fathers nature. That would be the nature of the Word or Word of life.

It refers to God Himself. It doesn't say what you're saying it does.

He wrote "about the Son" was that Solomon or Christ Jesus? Since He didn't write anything in regard to Solomon your grasping at straws. He wrote what He wrote by His understanding in who the Spirit was pointing to.

You're reading into the text (eisegesis) because this is quoted from Psalm 45. Psalm 45 is about Solomon, it isn't a prophecy about Jesus. It was reappropriated and then applied to the Son. The context isn't about Solomon being Lord God Almighty, but rather a king. So you can't use Hebrews 1:8 to say Jesus is God. That isn't how the Bible works. It's a bad translation to capitalize "God" in this context. It needs to be "god."

Are you bringing up the Divine nature? Wasn't a distinction made in that regard between what Jesus received vs what we received? in Col 2:9-10
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
If He was coeternal that would be reasonable. In Him is not Him but others state He is the only begotten unbegotten Son. (begotten but not made) I don't state that but I do acknowledge the fullness of the Fathers Deity that was pleased to dwell in Him. As the nature found in Him. (God)
Col 1:19
You have this from the Father? In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Your hand laid the foundations of the world?
You are the true vine that nourishes the branches?
All in Christ are held together in you and live through you?

Are you seriously stating you believe you have all that Jesus has been given in regard to the fullness of Deity?

The fact he is "filled with the fullness of the Deity" proves he isn't God. God is the Deity, Jesus is filled with the Deity.

The Father is in Him. He is in us. Isn't that a stated difference? So in Him God dwells. I guess you believe in us a glorified man dwells is that what you believe?

And also in the believers. What yours point?

Why if you can't agree the first 5 or 6 times why should we go through that again?

I'm going the extra mile with you.

Was any other son referred to as the image of the invisible God?

The point is he isn't God. Mankind is made in the image of God.

Did anybody here state the Father isn't God? In fact I believe the Father is the only true God.

Great then why do you keep saying Jesus is God when he isn't the Father?

As I have stated over and over all the fullness of the Fathers Deity that dwells in Jesus.

Agreed.

Col 1:19 and that's not born again. He is all that the Father is and in that context He is God.

In this context he isn't God. You just said the Father is the only true God now you seem to be back pedalling.

Do you believe Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit?

As long as we agree God didn't mate with Mary. This is about God's power overshadowing her. A miraculous conception.

Oneness not what was given.
That they may be one as we are one. The Father in Him and He in us.


Again that is in regard to oneness not what was gifted. Col 2:9-10 ; Col 1:19

And it isn't a reference to deity. You don't need to keep repeating the same points. If you can't expand on my refutes to your theology please change the subject.

 

[Runningman]

Clear disagreement with several translation teams as to the meaning.
Same word used here and Christ wasn't mentioned.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the [c]worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds[c] were set in order at God’s command,[d] so that the visible has its origin in the invisible.
Translation notes not Concordence
Ages is Plural as in all that exists in all those time periods Hence worlds or as some state universe.
tn Grk “ages.” The temporal (ages) came to be used of the spatial (what exists in those time periods). See Heb 1:2 for same usage.

These versions say ages for Hebrews 11:3. It doesn't follow since Hebrews 1:2 isn't about the literal physical universe being made in the last days (beginning ~2,000 years ago) that Hebrews 11:3 would be about the literal universe. Translation teams can have errors and biases, especially if they are motivated by agenda.

Literal Standard Version
By faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen having not come out of things appearing.

New Heart English Bible
By faith, we understand that the ages were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which are visible.

Young's Literal Translation
by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;

 

[Runningman]

Clear disagreement with several translation teams as to the meaning.
Same word used here and Christ wasn't mentioned.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the [c]worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds[c] were set in order at God’s command,[d] so that the visible has its origin in the invisible.
Translation notes not Concordence
Ages is Plural as in all that exists in all those time periods Hence worlds or as some state universe.
tn Grk “ages.” The temporal (ages) came to be used of the spatial (what exists in those time periods). See Heb 1:2 for same usage.

Your premise seems to be that, beginning with Hebrews 1:2, you're trying to say Jesus made the world, but when we look at the verse's context, it isn't right. The verse mentions God speaking through Jesus in recent times, while in the past, God spoke in different ways. If Jesus created the physical world, it means God spoke through Jesus in the past too, contradicting the verse's main point. The verse actually emphasizes that in recent times, God is speaking through the Son, not in the same way as before. God made the ages through the Son. This is all about the church age.

Furthermore, the fact that God made the Son an heir means they are not equal. Someone who isn't equal with God is not himself God.

I hope that helps!

 

[Randy]

Do you know who the Deity is? The Deity is the Father. The Father is God.

I'm discussing who God is. God isn't a nature.


The one God is the Father. The Lord of the church is Jesus. There is a specific context here and a divine hierarcny.

It refers to God Himself. It doesn't say what you're saying it does.


You're reading into the text (eisegesis) because this is quoted from Psalm 45. Psalm 45 is about Solomon, it isn't a prophecy about Jesus. It was reappropriated and then applied to the Son. The context isn't about Solomon being Lord God Almighty, but rather a king. So you can't use Hebrews 1:8 to say Jesus is God. That isn't how the Bible works. It's a bad translation to capitalize "God" in this context. It needs to be "god."


The fact he is "filled with the fullness of the Deity" proves he isn't God. God is the Deity, Jesus is filled with the Deity.



And also in the believers. What yours point?


I'm going the extra mile with you.

Yes, but I already have a teacher in this. Jesus is God's firstborn, (His spirit-before all things), and has always been the Son. All the fullness of the Fathers Deity was pleased to dwell in Him. From the will of another. Col 1:19 God the Father brought all things into existence by, through and for His Son, that is by the Deity in Him, (the Father) Jesus was a craftsman in regard to the creation. As is the case in all the Fathers works performed at by His hand it testifies that the Father is in Him, and they are one. At the proper time a body was prepared for Him and, the Son who was, His spirit was in that body. The one from above who comes down from the Fathers presence and testifies to what He has seen and heard as the only such eyewitness of the Father.

The point is he isn't God. Mankind is made in the image of God.

The context "the image of the invisible God" is written around the Supremacy given to the Son. One who has all the fullness of the living God in Him and therefore is the imprint of Gods very being. All that the Father is.

Great then why do you keep saying Jesus is God when he isn't the Father?

Why do you keep ignoring the context given to you in that statement? He is all that the Father is because it did please all the fullness to dwell in Him. So, in that context He is God and is a Son called mighty God.
Yes, He is all that the is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Agreed.


In this context he isn't God. You just said the Father is the only true God now you seem to be back pedalling.

No I am not, Jesus stated the Father is the only true God and that is truth to me. Jesus is my Lord.

As long as we agree God didn't mate with Mary. This is about God's power overshadowing her. A miraculous conception.

Mary conceived by the Spirit of God not by any man. The virgin gave birth. So the one born is the Son of God.

And it isn't a reference to deity. You don't need to keep repeating the same points. If you can't expand on my refutes to your theology please change the subject.

It's not that anyone doesn't refute your points line by line and many times with scripture, is it? You just reject all testimony about the Son who was and the fullness of Deity, found in Him.

 

[Randy]

These versions say ages for Hebrews 11:3. It doesn't follow since Hebrews 1:2 isn't about the literal physical universe being made in the last days (beginning ~2,000 years ago) that Hebrews 11:3 would be about the literal universe. Translation teams can have errors and biases, especially if they are motivated by agenda.

As opposed to your bias, Jesus is a glorified man and therefore each and every testimony that states God created through Him has to be explained away. Hebrews 11:3 which you state literal universe has the very same Greek word as Hebrews 1:2 which also means literal universe, but your personal beliefs keep you from agreeing to that.

Literal Standard Version
By faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen having not come out of things appearing.

New Heart English Bible
By faith, we understand that the ages were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which are visible.

Young's Literal Translation
by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;

Any biblical scholar worth their salt would state a literal word for word translation between koine Greek and English is not the same thing as a meaning-to-meaning translation. We simply don't use ages in English to express, all things in all time periods to convey created the universe or created all things. There was no hidden agenda in this, but careful consideration was given by those trained to do so to give the proper meaning in our language. (English)

 

[Randy]

Do you know who the Deity is? The Deity is the Father. The Father is God.

Yes, and have stated over and over the Fathers nature or the Fathers Deity. The eternal life found in the Son is the Father.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven.

I'm discussing who God is. God isn't a nature.

As I have answered this. I state the Fathers nature in Christ to show its His nature, not Jesus's, and as an expression. of all as fullness of the Fathers Deity found in Christ. The Word has that nature. Is God and was God is a honest reading to me and cohesive with my beliefs in regard to the Son who came down from the Fathers presence.

The one God is the Father. The Lord of the church is Jesus. There is a specific context here and a divine hierarcny.

Every name under the earth, in heaven, and on the earth with the exception of the one who gave Him that authority, will bow down and declare Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. He's more than just Lord of the body of Christ. He is Lord of all creation.

It refers to God Himself. It doesn't say what you're saying it does.


You're reading into the text (eisegesis) because this is quoted from Psalm 45. Psalm 45 is about Solomon, it isn't a prophecy about Jesus. It was reappropriated and then applied to the Son. The context isn't about Solomon being Lord God Almighty, but rather a king. So you can't use Hebrews 1:8 to say Jesus is God. That isn't how the Bible works. It's a bad translation to capitalize "God" in this context. It needs to be "god."

We disagree. My understand was acquired by reading about the Son in Hebrews 1.

The fact he is "filled with the fullness of the Deity" proves he isn't God. God is the Deity, Jesus is filled with the Deity.

If born again is a new creation than filled with the Fathers Deity qualifies as a creation of God the Father don't you think? In that gifting, as that preexisting Deity was not created a formed but gifted to be a part of Jesus's being forever then He is the imprint of Gods very being as all the fullness of Gods being or Deity lives in Him. He is all that the Father is and in that context I state is God. And He and the Father are One.

And also in the believers. What yours point?

The one in me is not a born again man. So I asked you.

I'm going the extra mile with you.

Again, I already have a teacher in this and its not any man. I decline to join you in your belief in a glorified man.

The point is he isn't God. Mankind is made in the image of God.

Jesus called God is a trigger point for you, We all know.

Great then why do you keep saying Jesus is God when he isn't the Father?

already answered.

Agreed.


In this context he isn't God. You just said the Father is the only true God now you seem to be back pedalling.

already answered.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, but I already have a teacher in this.

Jesus didn't teach you he is God unless you're claiming some kind of extrabiblical revelation.

Jesus is God's firstborn, (His spirit-before all things),

Verse?

and has always been the Son.

Not according to scripture.

All the fullness of the Fathers Deity was pleased to dwell in Him.

Amen and the fullness of God's deity dwells in all believers.

Ephesians 3
19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

From the will of another. Col 1:19 God the Father brought all things into existence by, through and for His Son, that is by the Deity in Him, (the Father) Jesus was a craftsman in regard to the creation.

Jesus in reference to the church. Colossians 1:15 proves Jesus isn't God therefore he isn't eternal.

As is the case in all the Fathers works performed at by His hand it testifies that the Father is in Him, and they are one.

Amen and believers are one with God too. John 17:21

At the proper time a body was prepared for Him and, the Son who was, His spirit was in that body. The one from above who comes down from the Fathers presence and testifies to what He has seen and heard as the only such eyewitness of the Father.

Jesus didn't have a literal pre-existence except for the in foreknowledge of God, i.e., he wasn't literally slain before the creation of the world per Revelation 13:8

The context "the image of the invisible God" is written around the Supremacy given to the Son. One who has all the fullness of the living God in Him and therefore is the imprint of Gods very being. All that the Father is.

Jesus is not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient. Jesus has the nature of God, but is not himself God. I believe this distinction is critical hence why there are no explicitly clear or indisputable declarations either by Jesus, his disciples, or God Himself that Jesus is God. To the contrary, there is so much that says otherwise.

Why do you keep ignoring the context given to you in that statement? He is all that the Father is because it did please all the fullness to dwell in Him. So, in that context He is God and is a Son called mighty God.

I am not ignoring it. I have showed you that the fullness of God dwelling in someone doesn't make them God.

Yes, He is all that the is.
No, He has always been the Son.

No.

No I am not, Jesus stated the Father is the only true God and that is truth to me. Jesus is my Lord.

That's what I believe too.

Mary conceived by the Spirit of God not by any man. The virgin gave birth. So the one born is the Son of God.

Amen.

It's not that anyone doesn't refute your points line by line and many times with scripture, is it? You just reject all testimony about the Son who was and the fullness of Deity, found in Him.

I don't reject any testimony about the Son of God.

 

[Randy]

Jesus didn't teach you he is God unless you're claiming some kind of extrabiblical revelation.


Verse?


Not according to scripture.


Amen and the fullness of God's deity dwells in all believers.

Ephesians 3
19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.


Jesus in reference to the church. Colossians 1:15 proves Jesus isn't God therefore he isn't eternal.


Amen and believers are one with God too. John 17:21

Jesus didn't have a literal pre-existence except for the in foreknowledge of God, i.e., he wasn't literally slain before the creation of the world per Revelation 13:8

Jesus is not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient. Jesus has the nature of God, but is not himself God. I believe this distinction is critical hence why there are no explicitly clear or indisputable declarations either by Jesus, his disciples, or God Himself that Jesus is God. To the contrary, there is so much that says otherwise.


I am not ignoring it. I have showed you that the fullness of God dwelling in someone doesn't make them God.


No.


That's what I believe too.



Amen.


I don't reject any testimony about the Son of God.

Well I can go through each of your claims but I have wasted enough of my time on this.

 

[Runningman]

As opposed to your bias,

You're rejecting the textbook definition of the word in favor of an interpretation that fits better with your narrative that Jesus created the physical universe. It isn't so. On this particular point, the proof is solidly in my favor.

Jesus is a glorified man and therefore each and every testimony that states God created through Him has to be explained away.

The literal universe wasn't created by or through Jesus. It doesn't follow from what the Bible says that Jesus was somehow literally there for that.

Genesis 2:4 says YHWH created the heavens and earth.

4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them.​

​

In Psalm 110:1, Jesus is not YHWH.

Psalm 110​

1The LORD said to my Lord:​

“Sit at My right hand​

until I make Your enemies​

a footstool for Your feet.”​

​

In Acts 4:23-24, John and Peter prayed to the Sovereign Lord, Creator of the Heavens and Earth. In Acts 4:30 they called Jesus God's servant. This is all sola scriptura that Jesus cannot be God.

Acts 4
23On their release, Peter and John returned to their own people and reported everything that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
30as You stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.”

Hebrews 11:3 which you state literal universe has the very same Greek word as Hebrews 1:2 which also means literal universe, but your personal beliefs keep you from agreeing to that.

The word for the literal universe is kosmos and it exists in neither Hebrews 1:2 or Hebrews 11:3. It refers to the ages.

Any biblical scholar worth their salt would state a literal word for word translation between koine Greek and English is not the same thing as a meaning-to-meaning translation. We simply don't use ages in English to express, all things in all time periods to convey created the universe or created all things. There was no hidden agenda in this, but careful consideration was given by those trained to do so to give the proper meaning in our language. (English)

Many modern Bibles are translated by Trinitarians who would clearly have a vested interested in creating translations that fit with their theological biases.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, and have stated over and over the Fathers nature or the Fathers Deity. The eternal life found in the Son is the Father.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven.

Yes, because the Father has the words of eternal life. He gave Jesus the commands and teachings to give to others.

As I have answered this. I state the Fathers nature in Christ to show its His nature, not Jesus's, and as an expression. of all as fullness of the Fathers Deity found in Christ. The Word has that nature. Is God and was God is a honest reading to me and cohesive with my beliefs in regard to the Son who came down from the Fathers presence.

According to John 6, did the manna come down from the Father's presence too? Did the manna from heaven exist eternally? Then why do you make an exception for Jesus?

Every name under the earth, in heaven, and on the earth with the exception of the one who gave Him that authority, will bow down and declare Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. He's more than just Lord of the body of Christ. He is Lord of all creation.

Key phrase here... "To the Glory of God the Father" meaning all of the glory goes to the Father, not Jesus.

We disagree. My understand was acquired by reading about the Son in Hebrews 1.

Me too.

If born again is a new creation than filled with the Fathers Deity qualifies as a creation of God the Father don't you think? In that gifting, as that preexisting Deity was not created a formed but gifted to be a part of Jesus's being forever then He is the imprint of Gods very being as all the fullness of Gods being or Deity lives in Him. He is all that the Father is and in that context I state is God. And He and the Father are One.

Being born from above or born again from above are new creations then it seems we agree Jesus was created.

The one in me is not a born again man. So I asked you.

Again, I already have a teacher in this and its not any man. I decline to join you in your belief in a glorified man.

Ok sure.

Jesus called God is a trigger point for you, We all know.

Actually, I would happily believe that if only Jesus quickly said "I am God." Which he did not. There is no trigger, just Biblical honesty.

 

[Randy]

Yes, because the Father has the words of eternal life. He gave Jesus the commands and teachings to give to others.


According to John 6, did the manna come down from the Father's presence too? Did the manna from heaven exist eternally? Then why do you make an exception for Jesus?


Key phrase here... "To the Glory of God the Father" meaning all of the glory goes to the Father, not Jesus.


Me too.


Being born from above or born again from above are new creations then it seems we agree Jesus was created.


Ok sure.

Actually, I would happily believe that if only Jesus quickly said "I am God." Which he did not. There is no trigger, just Biblical honesty.

Again not taking anymore of my time to respond. We will agree to disagree

 

[Runningman]

Again not taking anymore of my time to respond. We will agree to disagree

Okay, well, thank you for your input anyway. I am fine agreeing to disagree.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Thomas words "My lord and my God" are often misunderstood by some to be a declaration on Thomas' part about his belief Jesus is God. However, Jesus directly contradicted Thomas' words, saying that Thomas' God is the Father. Since the Father is the only true God (John 17:3) that means Jesus isn't God and no one in the Bible believed Jesus is God.

Jesus referred to Thomas and the rest of his disciples as his brother.

Matthew 12​

49Pointing to His disciples, he said, “Here are My mother and My brothers​

Jesus told Mary to deliver a message to Thomas and his other brothers about who their God is:

John 20​

17“Do not cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell my brothers, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”​

Jesus said his God is the Father and that the God of his brothers is also the Father. That means Thomas didn't believe Jesus is God.

Incorrect, God the Son revealed Himself as He taught them:

"It is written in the prophets, `And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (Jn. 6:45 NKJ)

 

[Runningman]

Incorrect, God the Son revealed Himself as He taught them:

God taught Jesus. What Jesus repeated to others weren't his own teachings.

"It is written in the prophets, `And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (Jn. 6:45 NKJ)

John 8
28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.