Those who don't pay their tithes shall end up in hell

[Jim Parker]

Kind of like planting tomato seeds and never going back out to check them again. You reap what you sow, God is not mocked and giving He said that I shall have all supply, abundance, and grace abound toward me that I be equipped for every good work.
I go back and expect my tomatoes.

You have made tomato soup out of snippets from many verses all taken out of context.
That's how you ruin the soup.

 

[Jim Parker]

Ya' know, calling them, old testament/new testament is actually a little misleading...I like to think of the "new" testament as...the modified testament (covenant).

What you "like to think" has absolutely no bearing on what they actually are. They are two very different covenants for two different groups of people (just Jews vs. Everyone) with different outcomes as a result of keeping them ("live long and prosper" in the land vs. eternal life).

Rather than relying on "what you like to think", rely on what the scriptures actually says, which, in this case is:
"Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith." (Gal 3:23-26 RSV) ("...but I did what I did until love came to town." B.B. KIng)

That's reasonable, eh?

iakov the fool

 

[WIP]

Southern Baptists tithe because they are told to tithe.
They say God expects them to tithe.
If any Southern Baptists say I'm wrong, start a new thread and I'll shut you down on this.
Assembly of God says they don't believe in tithing but then they say they encourage the use of Malachi 3 to get money.
How's that for a hypocritical denomination?
Church of God says they require tithing to make sure the pastor gets paid.
That it is a sin not to pay the pastor.
Tithing will ensure that he gets paid.
Don't look at me, it's written in their rules of the denomination on the internet from the Church of God site.

If tithing means giving $ to the denominational church then I agree it is required in order to pay the pastor.....and the light bill, water, sewer, heat, building and grounds maintenance, and so on.

 

[smaller]

Are you saying that Christians have to keep the Law of Moses?
That's what your questions suggest.

The Law of Moses is the covenant between Israel and God. It is called the "Old Covenant (Testament) because it has been replaced by the New Covenant (Testament).
The Old Covenant's stipulations were; if Israel kept God's commands, they would do well and live long in the land. (Deu 5:33)
Tithing is part of the Law of Moses.
The New Covenant stipulates that whoever (Jew or Gentile) believes (believing includes acting like you believe) in Jesus will have eternal life.
There is nothing about tithing in the New Covenant.
There is the warning that, if you rely on keeping part of the Old Covenant then you are under a curse. (Gal 3:10)

So, when some pastor quotes Malachi and tells his congregation that if they don't pay their tithes they are robbing God, (Mal 3:8) that is a false pastor who is trying to impose the Law of Moses on people who are not under the Law of Moses.

iakov the fool

The law (which you refer to as the law of Moses) was the Word of God given to Moses. It is not somethings that Moses pulled out of his own hat.

These are fairly complex subjects, laws and covenants. But to cast aside Gods Words in any manner is not appropriate. Jesus advises thusly: Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4, showing therein that "every Word" of God applies to MAN.

How to "get through" to that point of applying "every Word" will remain Divinely problematic for every person attempting to do so.

 

[JohnDB]

Southern Baptists tithe because they are told to tithe.
They say God expects them to tithe.
If any Southern Baptists say I'm wrong, start a new thread and I'll shut you down on this.
Assembly of God says they don't believe in tithing but then they say they encourage the use of Malachi 3 to get money.
How's that for a hypocritical denomination?
Church of God says they require tithing to make sure the pastor gets paid.
That it is a sin not to pay the pastor.
Tithing will ensure that he gets paid.
Don't look at me, it's written in their rules of the denomination on the internet from the Church of God site.

Enjoying privileges without a sense of responsibility is a massive problem with the world....it shouldn't be a Christian problem.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If tithing means giving $ to the denominational church then I agree it is required in order to pay the pastor.....and the light bill, water, sewer, heat, building and grounds maintenance, and so on.

Yeah, and buy that pastor a big new purple cadillac

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Enjoying privileges without a sense of responsibility is a massive problem with the world....it shouldn't be a Christian problem.

Your statement here is so generalized, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Try taking one thought at a time.

 

[Edward]

What you "like to think" has absolutely no bearing on what they actually are. They are two very different covenants for two different groups of people (just Jews vs. Everyone) with different outcomes as a result of keeping them ("live long and prosper" in the land vs. eternal life).

Rather than relying on "what you like to think", rely on what the scriptures actually says, which, in this case is:
"Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith." (Gal 3:23-26 RSV) ("...but I did what I did until love came to town." B.B. KIng)

That's reasonable, eh?

iakov the fool

We're still all one. One Spirit, one faith, one body. One new man like they say. Like in the scripture you posted... for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

 

[Edward]

Southern Baptists tithe because they are told to tithe.
They say God expects them to tithe.
If any Southern Baptists say I'm wrong, start a new thread and I'll shut you down on this.
Assembly of God says they don't believe in tithing but then they say they encourage the use of Malachi 3 to get money.
How's that for a hypocritical denomination?
Church of God says they require tithing to make sure the pastor gets paid.
That it is a sin not to pay the pastor.
Tithing will ensure that he gets paid.
Don't look at me, it's written in their rules of the denomination on the internet from the Church of God site.

That would be putting their faith in (deception) man rather than God. Unbelief.

I've went to churches that didn't pass the plate, but had lock boxes set up all over the church for a place for the people to give. Never heard one word from the pulpit about giving. This was also the Church that did the most for the community through outreach. That's faith.

I've also been to a church that, before the message, (every Sunday), an elder (?) would go to the pulpit and preach a mini sermon on giving and tithing, then pass the plate, then the sermon. (I didn't stay there long).

 

[WIP]

Yeah, and buy that pastor a big new purple cadillac

Why do we seem to lump all churches and pastors into the same group. It is not the Christian thing to do. Sheesh! There are plenty of those who claim the title Christian but does that mean those that give Christianity a bad name are a true representation of all Christians?

How about we look at the church I attend. Our congregation has 30 adult members but I would guess the regular active members to be closer to about 20. Our pastor of 35 years gets a salary below $30,000.00 including his pension. We also pay for his healthcare insurance. He gets this small salary by his own choosing and he would not accept more. I don't know the year of the car he drives but I know we have been talking about upgrading because it is old and has somewhere around 300,000 miles on it.

We have been offering to give him a sabbatical but there too he is fighting us because he says he is not stressed out and he says he doesn't work enough hours in a week to justify one. In fact, last night we had a council meeting and during that meeting he offered to give up $1,000.00 or $2,000.00 of his salary to support something we were discussing. Along with our pastor's salary we have the church building and grounds to maintain, heat, lights, etc. We also have the pastor's home to maintain. On top of that we support about a dozen missions throughout the world with a budget between $15,000.00 and $25,000.00 depending on the year. I don't think anyone in our congregation including the pastor is lining any pockets.

 

[smaller]

We're still all one. One Spirit, one faith, one body. One new man like they say. Like in the scripture you posted... for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

It would be nice if we could manage to see each others in that Light. And to not have to associate Gods blessings with cold hard cash. There are better rewards to be had.

 

[Edward]

Yep, and if we could learn to live as one while here on earth. I happened to notice that the way that it will be in heaven...is the same way as we are instructed to live here on earth.

It's dang nigh impossible here though...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yeah, and buy that pastor a big new purple cadillac

Ya know, I'm been in a lot of different churches in 31 years and I find people love their pastors, mostly.
They put them high on a pedestal and brag to others how good he is.
I've had people tell me how they would like to buy the pastor a new car.
A new car is a reasonable thing in America.
We think about buying our pastor a new car and it makes us think about buying our selves a new car.
And if I want to buy the pastor a new purple cadillac then I want to buy myself a new cadillac too, I'll just make it a different color.

 

[Corn Pop]

If I was a pastor nothing would be hidden. Everyone would be as family and if we needed to pay a bill I would say we need this amount so people know what's going on and can work as a team. Its amazing the tithe church is so open, but when it comes to money and what is needed and where it goes everything must be kept secret.

 

[smaller]

If I was a pastor nothing would be hidden. Everyone would be as family and if we needed to pay a bill I would say we need this amount so people know what's going on and can work as a team. Its amazing the tithe church is so open, but when it comes to money and what is needed and where it goes everything must be kept secret.

I'd rather not play. If I want to engage in/with the worlds money, which we are all forced into, the world is actually much better at it. There are plenty of non-christian groups to associate with as well, that do take care of the poor without the needs of buildings and expansion funds and advertisements on teevee, or putting money into gold laced ornaments and various jewels on priests heads.

It is somewhat problematic to find low overhead group placements for such funds. Even the Red Cross has been obliterated with scandal claims. What's this world coming to? Can't even trust the Red Cross anymore.

Sometimes a person is just better on their own, in quiet, as led, on the street or with less fortunate neighbors or with others they know who WILL do a good work. Giving can take on a lot of aspects. One of them should not be hell, hand in hand for not hitting the (supposed) legal quota. That whole gig in the churches makes me ill. I can't stand to even observe it or listen to it. When I see some wild eyed pseudo pentacostal stumping that way, I turn quickly in the other direction because I know the potential condemnation is coming along with it. bleech on all that noise. If they had even a fraction of the power they claim to have they'd leave the ministry and go put it to use and stop begging for money.

Do we see Jesus begging or demanding people for hard cash payola in the N.T? No. If anything we are led to rid ourselves of worldly encumbrances.

 

[Corn Pop]

But its like any charity, the middle man always takes there cut and theres costs. Unless its given directly to the cause there are costs involved and what % really gets to the needy?.

 

[JohnDB]

Your statement here is so generalized, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Try taking one thought at a time.

If a person enjoys the privilege of attending a church, has friends there, enjoys Sunday School/small group, sermons and the music program but doesn't financially contribute to the church....my question would be "Why?"

Electricity isn't free to run lights and air conditioning or heat...
Literature is often used to teach small group...it also isn't free.
Music isn't free either... including those songs that the whole congregation sings.
It's a privilege to have a place where you can join with your friends to discuss Bible truths, pray, comfort each other and encourage each other...in comfort of chairs and tables and lights and air conditioning or heat...

When a person is obviously a part of one of these groups and enjoys the privilege of being a part but doesn't seem to have any sense of responsibility for any financial aid to help alleviate the burden of these costs... especially when that burden is so small...kinda makes a person wonder what kind of character they really have.
Of course visitors aren't expected to pay or contribute. They are always welcome to just come and see.
But taking part in every way possible but financially....what's the deal?

 

[Corn Pop]

The problem with giving to people in need is that there down and out and its the time they really have no option but call on God, but someone comes along and gives them something and they stay dependant on man and money again.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If a person enjoys the privilege of attending a church, has friends there, enjoys Sunday School/small group, sermons and the music program but doesn't financially contribute to the church....my question would be "Why?"

Electricity isn't free to run lights and air conditioning or heat...
Literature is often used to teach small group...it also isn't free.
Music isn't free either... including those songs that the whole congregation sings.
It's a privilege to have a place where you can join with your friends to discuss Bible truths, pray, comfort each other and encourage each other...in comfort of chairs and tables and lights and air conditioning or heat...

When a person is obviously a part of one of these groups and enjoys the privilege of being a part but doesn't seem to have any sense of responsibility for any financial aid to help alleviate the burden of these costs... especially when that burden is so small...kinda makes a person wonder what kind of character they really have.
Of course visitors aren't expected to pay or contribute. They are always welcome to just come and see.
But taking part in every way possible but financially....what's the deal?

So what you're saying is pay up or be chastised.
Pay your share or else we will all stare at you and make you feel guilty.
"I'm not gonna let you share my electricity, I pay for it, it's mine. Pay for your own".
Doesn't sound like a very friendly church.
You keep it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The problem with giving to people in need is that there down and out and its the time they really have no option but call on God, but someone comes along and gives them something and they stay dependant on man and money again.

If that's the problem, then what's the solution?