Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[Razeontherock]

Same issue, I've already addressed this

Rance, you're saying no Christian has any business ever being a cop. If we actually HAVE to have Police, I would certainly rather have them all be Spirit filled Christians.

What you're doing here is conflating your calling as a preacher with ... everything else under the sun.

You are single and childless, right?

 

[Jim Parker]

Rance, you're saying no Christian has any business ever being a cop. If we actually HAVE to have Police, I would certainly rather have them all be Spirit filled Christians.

Paul endorsed the government's GOD ORDAINED right to employ deadly force.
Rom 13:1-4 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God,
and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
For he is God’s minister to you for good.
But if you he do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain;
for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

You wouldn't call the police ? That's your business .. Romans 13:1-7 ... And if there's no police and I kill a crook in self defense of any one then we have Law, courts and judges to clean it up, all in order .. And if I attempt to jump on a couple of loud mouth drunk marines while out witnessing who insulted some girls from our church but got pulled off them where I acted in un-disciplined natural impulse . I can't get forgiveness ..

Your comment on Ananias and Saphira vs the OT ? Acts 5:1-11

First you can get forgiveness; however you may have said that sarcastically.
Ananias and Saphira were killed by God, not man.

(Rhetorical, yet you can respond if you wish) What would be your thoughts on the countless scriptures speaking directly about followers of Jesus treating others; specifically those who are evil, those who are our enemies?

 

[brujaq]

First you can get forgiveness; however you may have said that sarcastically.
Ananias and Saphira were killed by God, not man.

(Rhetorical, yet you can respond if you wish) What would be your thoughts on the countless scriptures speaking directly about followers of Jesus treating others; specifically those who are evil, those who are our enemies?

No I was not being sarcastic, I tend to speak pretty straight forward at times ..

 

[Jim Parker]

What would be your thoughts on the countless scriptures speaking directly about followers of Jesus treating others; specifically those who are evil, those who are our enemies?

Jesus said to love them.
He did not say to allow then to kill other people or you or your family or not to defend your family from them if they try to kill your mom, dad, sis, bro, wife, and kids, friends and neighbors.

See my post #202

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Rance, you're saying no Christian has any business ever being a cop. If we actually HAVE to have Police, I would certainly rather have them all be Spirit filled Christians.

What you're doing here is conflating your calling as a preacher with ... everything else under the sun.

You are single and childless, right?

I'm not saying it, Jesus said how His people are to treat others. We are to sacrifice ourselves for anyone. Whatever the situation I should put myself in harms way to protect EVERYONE, even evil people.

Not sure what you mean by conflating my calling as a preacher with everything else. For one I'm not a preacher. I believe I'm simply stating one principle from Jesus and that is to absolutely love everyone and never to repay violence with violence. This is Jesus' principle which for His followers should apply in all situations. If not done then we all can choose what is right and wrong based upon the situation and that is relative moralism; which is not biblical and most definitely dangerous for society and our world.

Whether I'm single or childless is irrelevant and an argument gains nor loses validity either way.

By the way I am NOT single nor am I childless!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Gentlemen,
From his discourse it is easily deduced that Rance is just a half step below his savior and not prepared to learn any more, sad state of affairs but there it is. He has, it appears to this observer that he has, either never read the Old Testament, the Bible Yashua ha'Mashiah, All the disciples and millions of past and present , have taught and are teaching Christian Doctrine from, or he feels that the New Testament superseded the Bible that the New Testament is based upon.

From the structure of his sentences it is easily viewed that he is here to sell us on Religion and that the simple walking with God will not save us and he is willing to enter any slug fest to prove His Jesus is not the Jesus of the Old Testament. I pray I am wrong but he appears to ignore the single most important verse in Scripture, Mal. 3:6a, God/Yashuah never change.

I pray you folks are ready to help the Lost that are in abundance on any Sunday Morning.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Jesus said to love them.
He did not say to allow then to kill other people or you or your family or not to defend your family from them if they try to kill your mom, dad, sis, bro, wife, and kids, friends and neighbors.

See my post #202

You must know what LOVE is. Love can not kill. 1 Corinthians 13
Neither did Jesus say not to allow others to be killed. Neither did Jesus say to take up the sword and defend your family, your brothers in Christ, the helpless.

 

[brujaq]

[QUOTE="RANCE ADAMS, post: 1469465, member: 9980"
(Rhetorical, yet you can respond if you wish) What would be your thoughts on the countless scriptures speaking directly about followers of Jesus treating others; specifically those who are evil, those who are our enemies?[/QUOTE]

I've taken plenty of abuse, rejection and persecution humbly while operating in the name of Jesus fishing for men .. Having said that I've also acted contrary to what I considered at the time as you are preaching and saw some big and complicated miracles unfold and glory to the Lord result from my actions where I thought I was wrong and prayed for forgiveness . The main thing is get out there and be willing to be used ..

 

[Razeontherock]

I'm not saying it, Jesus said how His people are to treat others. We are to sacrifice ourselves for anyone. Whatever the situation I should put myself in harms way to protect EVERYONE, even evil people.

Not sure what you mean by conflating my calling as a preacher with everything else. For one I'm not a preacher. I believe I'm simply stating one principle from Jesus and that is to absolutely love everyone and never to repay violence with violence. This is Jesus' principle which for His followers should apply in all situations. If not done then we all can choose what is right and wrong based upon the situation and that is relative moralism; which is not biblical and most definitely dangerous for society and our world.

Whether I'm single or childless is irrelevant and an argument gains nor loses validity either way.

By the way I am NOT single nor am I childless!

Certainly the Scripture about not caring for your own has come up: 1 Tim 5:8

Of course we all hope to never be in the situation where we need to defend our children from senseless violence, or see our wife raped. That is QUITE different from a martyr's death, which is what your Scripture references refers to.

 

[Jim Parker]

You must know what LOVE is. Love can not kill.

Can love allow others to be killed when you are able to prevent it even though you must employ deadly force to do so?
You never address the other side of the equation.

Neither did Jesus say not to allow others to be killed.Neither did Jesus say to take up the sword and defend your family, your brothers in Christ, the helpless.

And that would be an argument from silence.
So, because Jesus didn't spell it out for you, you'd just let innocent people be slaughtered even though you had the means to stop it.
Is that what you are saying?

And here is a re-post of Romans 13 which states specifically that God appointed the police and army to use deadly force when necessary.
Rom 13:1-4 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God,
and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
Do you want to be unafraid of the authority?
Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
For he is God’s minister to you for good.
But
if you he do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain;
for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
He executes that wrath with his sword.

 

[Razeontherock]

You must know what LOVE is. Love can not kill. 1 Corinthians 13
Neither did Jesus say not to allow others to be killed. Neither did Jesus say to take up the sword and defend your family, your brothers in Christ, the helpless.

Which brings us right back to the topic.

The commandment is thou shalt do no murder. Butchering it as you have done changes it into something thoroughly impractical, that never would have survived for any of us to have heard the Gospel.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

[QUOTE="RANCE ADAMS, post: 1469465, member: 9980"
(Rhetorical, yet you can respond if you wish) What would be your thoughts on the countless scriptures speaking directly about followers of Jesus treating others; specifically those who are evil, those who are our enemies?

I've taken plenty of abuse, rejection and persecution humbly while operating in the name of Jesus fishing for men .. Having said that I've also acted contrary to what I considered at the time as you are preaching and saw some big and complicated miracles unfold and glory to the Lord result from my actions where I thought I was wrong and prayed for forgiveness . The main thing is get out there and be willing to be used ..[/QUOTE]
Well said, I'm encouraged by your conviction.
I hope I'm not using this scripture incorrectly. We can't follow what someone else has to to say (you can't believe me nor I believe you just because). What is most important is to determine within our hearts for our conscience what is God's truth. We're only responsible for ourselves.
Philippians 2:12-13 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

 

[Jim Parker]

What is most important is to determine within our hearts for our conscience what is God's truth. We're only responsible for ourselves.

THAT is right on target.
Amen.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Certainly the Scripture about not caring for your own has come up: 1 Tim 5:8

Of course we all hope to never be in the situation where we need to defend our children from senseless violence, or see our wife raped. That is QUITE different from a martyr's death, which is what your Scripture references refers to.

Obviously from my human nature I see differences in harming others. There's a big difference within my heart harming someone attacking my family. I don't see taking someone's life that is harming my family as contradicting the Timothy scripture. This world is not my nor my families home. I will sacrifice myself for anyone and I would hope I would do what I believe Jesus would want me to do and that is protect anyone including my family without killing an attacker.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Can love allow others to be killed when you are able to prevent it even though you must employ deadly force to do so?
You never address the other side of the equation.

And that would be an argument from silence.
So, because Jesus didn't spell it out for you, you'd just let innocent people be slaughtered even though you had the means to stop it.
Is that what you are saying?

And here is a re-post of Romans 13 which states specifically that God appointed the police and army to use deadly force when necessary.
Rom 13:1-4 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God,
and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
Do you want to be unafraid of the authority?
Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
For he is God’s minister to you for good.
But
if you he do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain;
for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
He executes that wrath with his sword.

Can love allow others to be killed when you are able to prevent it even though you must employ deadly force to do so? You never address the other side of the equation.
I would do everything to sacrifice myself which is love. Killing the other person is not love. The issue is my love, I do not have authority to say this life is worth killing and this life is not. I am not the one that is unloving if someone else kills someone. Evil happens in this world and God is the one who will exact revenge for it, not me.
And that would be an argument from silence.
Correct, my point exactly. I don't make an argument from silence, you do. I make an argument from countless scriptures speaking about nonviolence. The point can not be avoided: As a Christian I am not the judge of who lives and dies. If I kill I am still taking a life regardless of the situation. I do not have authority from Jesus to judge and kill. This is a slippery slope, situational ethics. Who is to say what is right and wrong? I contend Jesus has made that decision for us. God allowed the disciples to be beaten, imprisoned and murdered prematurely. God could have prevented this.
Romans 13 again is speaking to Christians to obey the state, not a statement to do what they do. The state is not what Christians are part of, Jesus spoke to this. His kingdom is not of this world. His kingdom along with His people are part of a spiritual world and our warfare is not with flesh and blood. Again Jesus is simply stating what the facts are regarding the state, not what he expects of His people. He taught extensively against this very issue of the state. He taught just the opposite for Christians to be different and not retaliate.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Which brings us right back to the topic.

The commandment is thou shalt do no murder. Butchering it as you have done changes it into something thoroughly impractical, that never would have survived for any of us to have heard the Gospel.

Not sure how I'm butchering anything. Killing or murdering the point is the same: intentional homicide is against the teachings of what Jesus wants from His followers.
The early Christians were killed by the thousands yet 2000 years later look how broad spread and prolific Christianity is. In fact it is agreed upon that during the first several centuries Christians were nonviolent. If I'm understanding your point, it is completely false because Christianity spread amazingly while Christians did not fight and were in fact killed. Even the first disciples, God did not spare to live a longer life to spread the Gospel even more. All but John were killed prematurely.

 

[brujaq]

John 18:10 .. Do you or anyone here believe Peter was good enough with a sword to with pinpoint precision aim and to target and cut of the mans ear or do you think God saved the mans life by causing him to react and get almost out of the way .. I think Peter meant more business than an ear and God allowed Peter to have something to fall back on when he later denied Jesus, God is that much in control imo .. When Jesus healed Malchus ear do you think he remembered that swoosh of wind from the sword for the rest off his life ? I think Pete was swinging for the fence

 

[Razeontherock]

Obviously from my human nature I see differences in harming others. There's a big difference within my heart harming someone attacking my family. I don't see taking someone's life that is harming my family as contradicting the Timothy scripture. This world is not my nor my families home. I will sacrifice myself for anyone and I would hope I would do what I believe Jesus would want me to do and that is protect anyone including my family without killing an attacker.

It takes an awful lot to actually kill someone. They can be stopped, but if we're overly concerned about NOT killing them, we're almost certain to lose since they're not operating under the same restraint.

 

[Jim Parker]

I would do everything to sacrifice myself which is love.

Yeah. I got that.
But mercy is better than sacrifice and it would not be merciful to allow innocents to be slaughtered as was the practice of ISIS. They have been stopped because they were killed. Nothing short of that was going to stop them.

I make an argument from countless scriptures speaking about nonviolence.

Cite two.
So far you have not supported your opinion with scripture.

Romans 13 again is speaking to Christians to obey the state, not a statement to do what they do.

Romans 13:1-4 is a statement that God appoints people to use deadly force when appropriate. That's what is meant by, "...he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."
That may not fit your theology but it is the theology which God has placed in His scripture.