Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[jasonc]

i have a hard time understanding this just Lot i believe the Bible at some point and time he had to change

We live in America,culturslly we are pretty close to a Sodom .we celebrate greed ,we worship sodomy, aND give lip service to the poor.it's not that hard to see how lot could have been happy there .

We do church then off to our self contained lives.I could easily disconnect from my church abd few would notice if it all.only one would actually contact me about not being there.that is the only time I have seem one do that in some time.

I'm not for an overbearing church ,but there's has to be some concern. Sorry to derail on my work imposed isolation at times.can't always make it and or do I want others to know?

There's much to post of brokenness thar I could tell.even in the vets group they don know .

 

[MarkT]

That's not what it says. Words mean things. There is a time for a 'surface reading,' just getting the Word in us where the Holy Spirit can use it. That doesn't tell us so much about what any of it means, nor is that the objective for that time.

Then there's also a time for study, which is where resources come into play. Different Bible versions, concordance, lexicon ...

There's no way you can pay attention to any of this and fail to make the distinction that RSV is weak on this point. And EVERY version of the Bible has weaknesses, as well as strengths. It's just not possible to translate in print, from languages and cultures so far removed, without some pretty major omissions. It takes discussion, preaching, revelation, etc. It's a growth process

The word is translated kill or murder. It has to be one or the other.

The RSV says
Matthew 5:21
“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ RSV

Is the murderer liable to judgment? Yes. But how about those who justify killing? Is there a separate judgment for them? No. There is one day of judgment and one judge, the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's why I believe the word is rightly translated 'kill' because 'kill' includes all who kill.

 

[Jim Parker]

The word is translated kill or murder. It has to be one or the other.

The RSV says
Matthew 5:21
“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ RSV
Is the murderer liable to judgment? Yes.
But how about those who justify killing? Is there a separate judgment for them? No.
There is one day of judgment and one judge, the Lord Jesus Christ.
That's why I believe the word is rightly translated 'kill' because 'kill' includes all who kill.

The Law of Moses makes a very clear statement that a murder is to be put to death.
Num 35:16-21
But if he strikes him with an iron implement, so that he dies, he is a murderer;
the murderer shall surely be put to death.

And if he strikes him with a stone in the hand, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer;
the murderer shall surely be put to death.

Or if he strikes him with a wooden hand weapon, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death.

The avenger of blood himself shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him,
he shall put him to death.

If he pushes him out of hatred or, while lying in wait, hurls something at him so that he dies,
or in enmity he strikes him with his hand so that he dies, the one who struck him shall surely be put to death. He is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.

So it is God who has established that the death penalty is appropriate for a murderer.
God hasn't changed. Mal 3:6

The word translated "kill" in the RSV at Mat 5:21 is φονεύσεις (phoneuseis) which is a verbal form of the noun φονεύς (phoneus) which has the meanings of a murderer or a homicide.

 

[WIP]

The word is translated kill or murder. It has to be one or the other.

The RSV says
Matthew 5:21
“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ RSV

Is the murderer liable to judgment? Yes. But how about those who justify killing? Is there a separate judgment for them? No. There is one day of judgment and one judge, the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's why I believe the word is rightly translated 'kill' because 'kill' includes all who kill.

I'm curious how this can be reconciled with these...

Deuteronomy 4:41-43 NKJV
41 Then Moses set apart three cities on this side of the Jordan, toward the rising of the sun, 42 that the manslayer might flee there, who kills his neighbor unintentionally, without having hated him in time past, and that by fleeing to one of these cities he might live: 43 Bezer in the wilderness on the plateau for the Reubenites, Ramoth in Gilead for the Gadites, and Golan in Bashan for the Manassites.


Deuteronomy 19:1-13 NKJV
1 “When the Lord your God has cut off the nations whose land the Lord your God is giving you, and you dispossess them and dwell in their cities and in their houses, 2 you shall separate three cities for yourself in the midst of your land which the Lord your God is giving you to possess. 3 You shall prepare roads for yourself, and divide into three parts the territory of your land which the Lord your God is giving you to inherit, that any manslayer may flee there.

4 “And this is the case of the manslayer who flees there, that he may live: Whoever kills his neighbor unintentionally, not having hated him in time past— 5 as when a man goes to the woods with his neighbor to cut timber, and his hand swings a stroke with the ax to cut down the tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies—he shall flee to one of these cities and live; 6 lest the avenger of blood, while his anger is hot, pursue the manslayer and overtake him, because the way is long, and kill him, though he was not deserving of death, since he had not hated the victim in time past. 7 Therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall separate three cities for yourself.’

8 “Now if the Lord your God enlarges your territory, as He swore to your fathers, and gives you the land which He promised to give to your fathers, 9 and if you keep all these commandments and do them, which I command you today, to love the Lord your God and to walk always in His ways, then you shall add three more cities for yourself besides these three, 10 lest innocent blood be shed in the midst of your land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, and thus guilt of bloodshed be upon you.

11 “But if anyone hates his neighbor, lies in wait for him, rises against him and strikes him mortally, so that he dies, and he flees to one of these cities, 12 then the elders of his city shall send and bring him from there, and deliver him over to the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. 13 Your eye shall not pity him, but you shall put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with you.

Joshua 20:1-6 NKJV
1 The Lord also spoke to Joshua, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Appoint for yourselves cities of refuge, of which I spoke to you through Moses, 3 that the slayer who kills a person accidentally or unintentionally may flee there; and they shall be your refuge from the avenger of blood. 4 And when he flees to one of those cities, and stands at the entrance of the gate of the city, and declares his case in the hearing of the elders of that city, they shall take him into the city as one of them, and give him a place, that he may dwell among them. 5 Then if the avenger of blood pursues him, they shall not deliver the slayer into his hand, because he struck his neighbor unintentionally, but did not hate him beforehand. 6 And he shall dwell in that city until he stands before the congregation for judgment, and until the death of the one who is high priest in those days. Then the slayer may return and come to his own city and his own house, to the city from which he fled.’ ”

Numbers 35:9-34 NKJV
9 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you cross the Jordan into the land of Canaan, 11 then you shall appoint cities to be cities of refuge for you, that the manslayer who kills any person accidentally may flee there. 12 They shall be cities of refuge for you from the avenger, that the manslayer may not die until he stands before the congregation in judgment. 13 And of the cities which you give, you shall have six cities of refuge. 14 You shall appoint three cities on this side of the Jordan, and three cities you shall appoint in the land of Canaan, which will be cities of refuge. 15 These six cities shall be for refuge for the children of Israel, for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them, that anyone who kills a person accidentally may flee there.

16 ‘But if he strikes him with an iron implement, so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. 17 And if he strikes him with a stone in the hand, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. 18 Or if he strikes him with a wooden hand weapon, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. 19 The avenger of blood himself shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. 20 If he pushes him out of hatred or, while lying in wait, hurls something at him so that he dies, 21 or in enmity he strikes him with his hand so that he dies, the one who struck him shall surely be put to death. He is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.

22 ‘However, if he pushes him suddenly without enmity, or throws anything at him without lying in wait, 23 or uses a stone, by which a man could die, throwing it at him without seeing him, so that he dies, while he was not his enemy or seeking his harm, 24 then the congregation shall judge between the manslayer and the avenger of blood according to these judgments. 25 So the congregation shall deliver the manslayer from the hand of the avenger of blood, and the congregation shall return him to the city of refuge where he had fled, and he shall remain there until the death of the high priest who was anointed with the holy oil. 26 But if the manslayer at any time goes outside the limits of the city of refuge where he fled, 27 and the avenger of blood finds him outside the limits of his city of refuge, and the avenger of blood kills the manslayer, he shall not be guilty of blood, 28 because he should have remained in his city of refuge until the death of the high priest. But after the death of the high priest the manslayer may return to the land of his possession.

29 ‘And these things shall be a statute of judgment to you throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 30 Whoever kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the testimony of witnesses; but one witness is not sufficient testimony against a person for the death penalty. 31 Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death. 32 And you shall take no ransom for him who has fled to his city of refuge, that he may return to dwell in the land before the death of the priest. 33 So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it. 34 Therefore do not defile the land which you inhabit, in the midst of which I dwell; for I the Lord dwell among the children of Israel.’ ”

 

[WIP]

I see you beat me to it, Jim.

 

[MarkT]

Lot was following a custom. The story is a type of literature known as "moral dilemma;" there is NO right answer. Lot couldn't have done anything good, the situation was just that bad. This forces the reader to think, and God is very big on that.

The sins of Sodom and Gomorrah are not limited to homosexuality which this story highlights, but also include violating hospitality as this story demonstrates.

We can also see a parallel to Cain and Abel:

Abraham offered a sacrifice per God's command, and was spared. God never actually wanted Abraham to kill Isaac. Abraham proved he was WILLING to, but his faith was that even if he went through with it, God would raise Isaac from the dead. Abraham KNEW God so well that it was preposterous for him to think he would actually offer his Son on the altar and that would be the end of it. So Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness. He also saw the ram caught in the thicket as God's provision.

Abel likewise offered unto God per God's command.

Lot acted according to his interpretation of custom, not according to God's command. Lot proved he was WILLING to sacrifice his daughters, but they were spared, just as Isaac was spared. Lot's act of faith was not accounted to him for righteousness, just like Cain's sacrifice wasn't accepted.

Lot is described as "just," not as righteous. Rev 22:11 gives us some insight into these distinctions; there is a distinction between Abraham and Lot. We can see that in many places

The angels said they would stay in the street. But Lot urged them strongly to spend the night in his house, suggesting it was dangerous to be out at night in Sodom. There was no 'following a custom' in Lot's urging. And calling it a story and literature only diminishes the significance of the events as they happened. And there was no moral dilemma; Lot did the right thing.

Genesis 18:20 says their sin was very grave. This was not about showing hospitallity.

Then the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomor′rah is great and their sin is very grave,

Every man, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded Lot's house. What it means is every man in Sodom was lying with men, including young men and possibly children were lying with older men.

Jude tells us why they were destroyed; they acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust. It was for this reason they were destroyed.
Jude 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

 

[MarkT]

The Law of Moses makes a very clear statement that a murder is to be put to death.
Num 35:16-21
But if he strikes him with an iron implement, so that he dies, he is a murderer;
the murderer shall surely be put to death.

And if he strikes him with a stone in the hand, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer;
the murderer shall surely be put to death.

Or if he strikes him with a wooden hand weapon, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death.

The avenger of blood himself shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him,
he shall put him to death.

If he pushes him out of hatred or, while lying in wait, hurls something at him so that he dies,
or in enmity he strikes him with his hand so that he dies, the one who struck him shall surely be put to death. He is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.

So it is God who has established that the death penalty is appropriate for a murderer.
God hasn't changed. Mal 3:6

The word translated "kill" in the RSV at Mat 5:21 is φονεύσεις (phoneuseis) which is a verbal form of the noun φονεύς (phoneus) which has the meanings of a murderer or a homicide.

Yes. That's according to the law. But we have been discharged from the law.

Romans 7:6
But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

And we are not under the law but under grace. Romans 6:15

But I was referring to Jesus' teaching. Mt. 5:21 RSV The issue is whether the word is rightly translated kill and whoever kills or murder and whoever murders.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes. That's according to the law. But we have been discharged from the law.

Except for the sacrificial parts of the law, which Jesus fulfilled by His self-sacrifice, "till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." (Mat 5:18) Since the Kingdom has not come in its fullness, there is more to be accomplished.
No one will be saved by works of the law but the law is still the word of God. and we fulfill that law through love.
Rom 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Rom 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
There is nothing in the NT which says that a murderer should not be put to death. In fact, Romans 13 tells us that the ruling authorities bear the sword (an instrument designed to kill) as God's ministers.

Romans 7:6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.
Romans 6:15 And we are not under the law but under grace.

Those verses have to do with salvation, not whether the death penalty is the just punishment for murder.
What changed from Old Testament to New was that Gentiles who believe are welcome to become members of the household of God without having to be circumcised and keep the sacrificial ordinances which include defilement laws and dietary laws which Jesus fulfilled.

But I was referring to Jesus' teaching. Mt. 5:21 RSV The issue is whether the word is rightly translated kill and whoever kills or murder and whoever murders.

I believe the most accurate translation is "murder."
There is a significant difference between executing someone as punishment for his having committed murder (which is in accord with God's commands) and the murder that the person committed. Murder is a sin; the execution of a murderer is a just and righteous act according to scripture.
In any case, attempting to make a case based on the English translation in which the English words " to murder" and "to kill" are conflated without consideration of context in which the commandments that murder should be punishable by death but manslaughter should not be. English and American jurisprudence make that distinction based on the teaching of scripture.

[edited]

 

[Northman]

The RSV says
Matthew 5:21
“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ RSV

A more literal word for word type translation might be something for you to consider, maybe something like the ESV.

 

[Northman]

There is nothing in the NT which says that a murderer should not be put to death. In fact, Romans 13 tells us that the ruling authorities bear the sword (an instrument designed to kill) as God's ministers.

I understand who you are talking to and the nature of your discussion but what about forgiveness?

 

[MarkT]

The Law of Moses makes a very clear statement that a murder is to be put to death.
Num 35:16-21
But if he strikes him with an iron implement, so that he dies, he is a murderer;
the murderer shall surely be put to death.

And if he strikes him with a stone in the hand, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer;
the murderer shall surely be put to death.

Or if he strikes him with a wooden hand weapon, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death.

The avenger of blood himself shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him,
he shall put him to death.

If he pushes him out of hatred or, while lying in wait, hurls something at him so that he dies,
or in enmity he strikes him with his hand so that he dies, the one who struck him shall surely be put to death. He is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.

So it is God who has established that the death penalty is appropriate for a murderer.
God hasn't changed. Mal 3:6

The word translated "kill" in the RSV at Mat 5:21 is φονεύσεις (phoneuseis) which is a verbal form of the noun φονεύς (phoneus) which has the meanings of a murderer or a homicide.

Re. Mt. 5:21. Jesus referred to the law. What does the law say? The law says if you kill someone with a weapon, you're a murderer. If you strike someone with a stone and he dies, you're a murderer. If you strike someone with your hand and that person dies, you're a murderer. All killing is murder.

There doesn't seem to be any exception to the rule. There is no provision in the law for killing in self defence or for killing to protect someone else. If you kill someone, you're a murderer.

The exception is if someone kills a person without intending to kill him, that person is a manslayer.

Matthew 5:21
“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’

So I think the word in Mt. 5:21 is rightly translated 'kill'. RSV

 

[Razeontherock]

The exception is if someone kills a person without intending to kill him, that person is a manslayer.

Ah, so there IS an exception! Thus, not all killing is murder. Even waaay back in Moses' day. Our laws today reflect that; "manslaughter." It's not a capital offense.

 

[WIP]

Re. Mt. 5:21. Jesus referred to the law. What does the law say? The law says if you kill someone with a weapon, you're a murderer. If you strike someone with a stone and he dies, you're a murderer. If you strike someone with your hand and that person dies, you're a murderer. All killing is murder.

There doesn't seem to be any exception to the rule. There is no provision in the law for killing in self defence or for killing to protect someone else. If you kill someone, you're a murderer.

The exception is if someone kills a person without intending to kill him, that person is a manslayer.

Matthew 5:21
“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’

So I think the word in Mt. 5:21 is rightly translated 'kill'. RSV

Deuteronomy 19:4-7 seems to disagree with you. In fact, it might even indicate that if one kills another in defense of themselves or another, it would not be murder because he didn't hate the other in time past. This is what I was trying to point out in my post #364. If you read through the references I provided, you'll find other examples of when a death does not result in one being a murderer.

 

[Northman]

There doesn't seem to be any exception to the rule. There is no provision in the law for killing in self defence or for killing to protect someone else. If you kill someone, you're a murderer.

Are you familiar with the office of avenger of blood at all?

 

[MarkT]

Ah, so there IS an exception! Thus, not all killing is murder. Even waaay back in Moses' day. Our laws today reflect that; "manslaughter." It's not a capital offense.

There's a provision in the law if anyone kills a man unintentionally. Otherwise all killing is murder So Jesus said, “You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’

 

[Jim Parker]

I understand who you are talking to and the nature of your discussion but what about forgiveness?

Forgiveness and punishment for crime are two different things.
I can forgive a murderer but that does not remove the necessity that justice be carried out.
For example, sinners were forgiven by God even in the Old Testament (Psa 32:1) but Jesus still had to die to take away the sin of the world.

iakov the fool

 

[Northman]

Forgiveness and punishment for crime are two different things.
I can forgive a murderer but that does not remove the necessity that justice be carried out.
For example, sinners were forgiven by God even in the Old Testament (Psa 32:1) but Jesus still had to die to take away the sin of the world.

iakov the fool

So for murderers like David and Paul, why did they not have to face death?

 

[Jim Parker]

Re. Mt. 5:21. Jesus referred to the law. What does the law say? The law says if you kill someone with a weapon, you're a murderer. If you strike someone with a stone and he dies, you're a murderer. If you strike someone with your hand and that person dies, you're a murderer. All killing is murder.

You are mistaken. The law does not say "all killing is murder."
Num 35:22-25 However, if he pushes him suddenly without enmity, or throws anything at him without lying in wait, or uses a stone, by which a man could die, throwing it at him without seeing him, so that he dies, while he was not his enemy or seeking his harm, then the congregation shall judge between the manslayer and the avenger of blood according to these judgments. So the congregation shall deliver the manslayer from the hand of the avenger of blood, and the congregation shall return him to the city of refuge where he had fled, and he shall remain there until the death of the high priest who was anointed with the holy oil.
So the Law makes a clear distinction between murder and manslaughter. The murderer is put to death but the manslayer is not.
A further distinction is made by God when He sends Israel out to make war on their enemies.
Deu 7:2 and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them.
Deu 20:16-17 But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the LORD your God has commanded you,

Matthew 5:21
“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’

And the rest of Jesus' statement is: "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire."

There is no provision in the law for killing in self defense or for killing to protect someone else.

It is the main point of the book of Esther.
All the Jews defended themselves from the attempt to exterminate them.
In the book of Judges, when Israel was attacked by their enemies, their Judges called for repentance and then they went out and slaughtered their enemies.
David, the "man after God's own heart" slaughtered the enemies of Israel.
Judith slew Holofernes to protect the Jews.
Jael slew Sisera the commander of the enemies of Israel.
None of these were considered guilty of murder.

So there is very definitely a difference between killing and murder.

 

[Jim Parker]

So for murderers like David and Paul, why did they not have to face death?

David slew Israel's enemies. That was what he was selected and anointed to do as King of Israel.
Paul did face death. He was imprisoned and beheaded.

 

[MarkT]

Deuteronomy 19:4-7 seems to disagree with you. In fact, it might even indicate that if one kills another in defense of themselves or another, it would not be murder because he didn't hate the other in time past. This is what I was trying to point out in my post #364. If you read through the references I provided, you'll find other examples of when a death does not result in one being a murderer.

If anyone kills his neighbor unintentionally, by accident. ie.
Deuteronomy 19:5
as when a man goes into the forest with his neighbor to cut wood, and his hand swings the axe to cut down a tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies—he may flee to one of these cities and save his life;

There is a provision in the law for the man slayer.

But there is no provision in the law for killing with intent to harm. The law says if you kill someone with a weapon in hand by which a man may die, and he dies, you're a murderer. If you strike someone with a stone by which a man may die, and he dies, you're a murderer. If you strike someone with your hand in enmity, and that person dies, you're a murderer.

So it seems all killing, unless it is unintentional, is murder.

So I think the RSV is rightly translated “You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ Mt. 5:21 RSV