[_ Old Earth _] Time does not exist, and this impacts evolution

[rthom7]

Greetings Barbarian,


As you learned, "24 hour hours of time", is not found in the Creation Account. That is man's addition to Genesis to make it more acceptable to man

As far as I know the earth's rotation has not changed much since Creation, thus a yom is a 24 hour period of time, for forward progression of events.

The reason I quoted 24 hours it to make sure the yom is a literal day, not a relativity day...

Shalom

 

[rthom7]

Greetings Barbarian
Yom" can mean "day", "period of daylight", "lifetime", "eons", and "forever", among others. You've been misinformed
Sorry you feel that way, the yom being a literal day has been fixed in scholarly writings since the early 15 century long before evolution or science existed.
You would have to take on Professor Gerald Schroeder, and his critiques who al say the Hebrew yom is most strongly a day....

Show me a verse that makes yom longer than a day in the Genesis account?

Ex 13:10 Thou shalt therefore keep <shamar> this ordinance <chuqqah> in his season <mow`ed> from year <yowm> to year <yowm>.
Sure KJV translates yom here as year.... I would read it as day to day....

Ge 4:3 ¶ And in process <qets> of time <yowm> it came to pass,
Why not translate it as in the process of days it came to pass ?

4:3
and it came to pass at the conclusion of days,

A literal translation of Genesis by Jeff Benner.... Ancient Hebrew Research Center
Perhaps the problem is with the translators ??


Shalom

 

[rthom7]

Douglas Summers,

Time is created for man only. Time does not exist with God, or rather, time does not effect God. For there was no time till God created it for His purpose in man. Eternity is timeless, in which God exists. The events in time on the earth will test and decide what will be timeless or eternal for man

Well said and posted brother.... for readers like you, I created this thread....we need to put to rest the idea that God needs time to do things....God can do things immediately if He wants to....He doesn't. oppose disorder with millions of years of slowly increasing order....no..... evolution is a religious materialism concept that opposes God and His very clever Creative ways...

Shalom

 

[GodsGrace]

rthom7

Do I remember correctly?
Time is relative.
Even on different parts of the planet, time moves differently. I seem to remember that around the
equator it moves more slowly.

And didn't Einstein's theory of relativity state that if we could move fast enough, or travel fast enough, time
WOULD actually go backwards?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

BTW,
I do agree with Douglas Summers that time does not exist with God.
I like to say that God is OUTSIDE time.
He's on the outside of His creation looking in.
He's not a PART of His creation and does not move with it.

W

 

[rthom7]

Greetings wondering,

And didn't Einstein's theory of relativity state that if we could move fast enough, or travel fast enough, time WOULD actually go backwards?

Your words are good Wondering.... if one travels up to the speed of light, time slows down heaps but it does not go backwards....if such a concept existed this thread would be shot to pieces....

If time is really the forward progression of events, then time does not exist, meaning Doctor who time, going backwards into time and forwards into time...

Since time does not exist with God, why would God use a millions years of disorder to oppose chaos with order in His presence... He would simply banish chaos as quickly as He said Let there be light

SHalom

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings wondering,

And didn't Einstein's theory of relativity state that if we could move fast enough, or travel fast enough, time WOULD actually go backwards?

Your words are good Wondering.... if one travels up to the speed of light, time slows down heaps but it does not go backwards....if such a concept existed this thread would be shot to pieces....

If time is really the forward progression of events, then time does not exist, meaning Doctor who time, going backwards into time and forwards into time...

Since time does not exist with God, why would God use a millions years of disorder to oppose chaos with order in His presence... He would simply banish chaos as quickly as He said Let there be light

SHalom

Believe me rthom7, I'm really NOT interested in going back in time!

However, it's always been fascinating to me since I like science fiction.
I've always thought going back in time is impossible because a thing or person cannot exist in two different dimensions at the same time.

But didn't the discovery of the Higgs Boson open up the idea that it actually may be possible?
I do remember reading about this.

Wondering

 

[Barbarian]

Do I remember correctly?
Time is relative.
Even on different parts of the planet, time moves differently. I seem to remember that around the
equator it moves more slowly.

Rotational velocity is different on different parts of a globe. This is why nations launch spacecraft as close to the equator as possible, to gain the additional velocity. For all practical purposes, time is the same everywhere on the same meridian, although there are unmeasurable relativistic effects so that time would slow down by very very tiny rate at the equator. It wouldn't make any difference in a human lifetime, but it is true that the Apollo astronauts experienced a few seconds of slowdown due to the prolonged high speed during their trips to the Moon.

And didn't Einstein's theory of relativity state that if we could move fast enough, or travel fast enough, time
WOULD actually go backwards?

If you could accelerate something to the speed of light, time would effectively stop, as viewed by a stationary observer (it would of course continue in the frame of reference of the accelerated object). If you could exceed the speed of light, time would indeed reverse from the view of a stationary observer. However, since an object also increases mass as it approaches the speed of light, it would become infinitely massive near the speed of light, which would require an infinite amount of force to accelerate it further.

So not very likely, at least as far as we know now.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Yom" can mean "day", "period of daylight", "lifetime", "eons", and "forever", among others. You've been misinformed

Sorry you feel that way, the yom being a literal day has been fixed in scholarly writings since the early 15 century long before evolution or science existed.

No, that's wrong. Even ancient Christians knew that "Yom" didn't mean 24-hour days in the creation story. Later writers, perhaps as early as the 15th century re-interpreted it to be so.

For example, these use "Yom" to mean "always" or "forever":
Deu 14:23
And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

Jeremiah 31:36
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jeremiah 32:39
And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

Jeremiah 33:18
Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

Jeremiah 35:19
Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

1 Samuel 2:32
And thou shalt see an enemy in my habitation, in all the wealth which God shall give Israel: and there shall not be an old man in thine house for ever.

1 Samuel 2:35
And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

The idea that it always means "24 hour day" is a modern revision.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Actually, ancient Christians always believed the Yom to be 24 hours.
It was ancient Christian writers who "speculated" that it may have meant something else.
Again, you are trying to intertwined your so-called scientific fact with faith in the Bible.

 

[Douglas Summers]

As you learned, "24 hour hours of time", is not found in the Creation Account. That is man's addition to Genesis to make it more acceptable to man

Hi, What would you call evening to evening? Christ says there are 24 hours in a day. Since He is also creator, should He not Know? (John 11:9). There are a circle of churches that believe in Genesis, a day is a long period of time to allow for evolution, going by today's sciences. It is not so. There is no vertical evolution (monkey to man). There is horizontal evolution (man and animal adapting to environmental locations to survive) most of science is based on theory and speculation and faith in their theories. A day in Genesis is sun up till sun down (24 hours). Seasons and time are created by God towards man because it is not an eternal state, as eternity is. Time brings decay and death. It takes something new and makes it old. It takes something unawares and makes it wise through time and experience with the choice of how it wants it to be completed. (working towards a solution or goal of the mind whether good or bad). There is a time for everything and everything has it's time. Out side of the earth, time is irrelevant. Man has to take time with him. If man lived on Mars, time and seasons are irrelevant. Man has to bring earth time with him. Time reveals an intelligent being an order of things that support each other and self sufficiency. Decay is a product of time. Eternity is forever.

 

[Hyla C]

The electromagnetic force and the nuclear weak force. There are a few experiments out there where they've altered decay rates using extreme conditions such as ultrahigh pressures or extreme ionizing conditions but those are really just tinkering with the electromagnetic force by proxy.

The Edenic world would have had a very different ionic field, affecting the electromagnetic forces, and thus nuclear processes and reactions,,,, thus affecting Science who use assumptions that todays decay rate is the same as long ago... its a poor assumption....

You'd best hope not. In the experiment that I was referring to they stripped all 75 electrons off of a Rhenium atom to change the decay rate. You aren't going to get life under those conditions. You won't even get solid matter. Last time I checked the first chapter of Genesis was pretty specific about both of those being around.

You quite simply can't change the nuclear decay rates without killing everything on Earth and, in most cases, turning their remains into either super-heated plasma or some fascinating condensed phase.

 

[Hyla C]

Correction: I misspoke earlier. Nuclear decay rates are governed by the electromagnetic and nuclear strong forces. The nuclear weak force occasionally gets a word in edgewise but isn't terribly important in most nuclear decay mechanisms.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Three things that point to a thing called time.

Memory. If we did not remember the past, then it might be plassible that time doesn't exist. Or if we remembered the past and the future just as well, then we could count that time doesn't exist, just our perception of traveling through our memories.

Time is affected by the speed that it is traveling. If I remember it right it slows down the faster one travels, and has been tested by placing two identical clocks set at the same time. One clock traveled in a plane while the other stayed in one place. After the plane landed the clocks were compaired and a noticeable difference was noted.

Time is also affected apparently by the closeness it is to a gravitational source. Moving slower the farther away it is from a source of gravity. From that theory though there is a practical application. Calibrating the clocks in satilites in orbit to comps ate for the difference and match our clocks down on the ground.

These three things in my opinion show in a testable and observable way that time does indeed exist. Or if that isn't tine that is existing, then perhaps give a defination of time for us to consider, so that we can understand what you mean when you say "time as defined in science, doesn't exist."

 

[rthom7]

Greetings Barbarian

Try translating the Hebrew correctly


Deu 14:23
...that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
De 14:23 (YLT) ....that thou dost learn to fear Jehovah thy God all the days.

Jeremiah 31:36....from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:36 (YLT) ..... From being a nation before Me all the days.


Jeremiah 32:39... that they may fear me for ever,
Jer 32:39 (YLT) .......to fear Me all the days,


Jeremiah 33:18.... and to do sacrifice continually.
Jer 33:18 (YLT) .... and making sacrifice--all the days.'


Jeremiah 35:19.... to stand before me for ever.
Jer 35:19 (YLT.... standing before me is not cut off all the days.'

1 Samuel 2:32.... and there shall not be an old man in thine house for ever.
1Sa 2:32 (YLT) ....and there is not an old man in thy house all the days.

1 Samuel 2:35.... and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
1Sa 2:35 (YLT) ..., and he hath walked up and down before Mine anointed all the days;

Try reading Young's Literal Translation, rather than reading a dynamic translation where one makes a Hebrew word experience polysemy ....

Ramban (Nachmanides; Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman) (1194-1270 C.E.)
wrote "yom" as a single day, a scholar, and long before Science even existed, let alone evolution

Shalom

 

[Barbarian]

If you think "Yom" means "all the days" instead of "one 24 hour day", how exactly is that different than "forever?" The text doesn't say "all the yom." It says "yom", which you've told us means "all the days." That means each "yom" in Genesis could mean "all the days."

There's really no way out of this, but to admit what it is.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings Barbarian

Try translating the Hebrew correctly


Deu 14:23
...that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
De 14:23 (YLT) ....that thou dost learn to fear Jehovah thy God all the days.

Jeremiah 31:36....from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:36 (YLT) ..... From being a nation before Me all the days.


Jeremiah 32:39... that they may fear me for ever,
Jer 32:39 (YLT) .......to fear Me all the days,


Jeremiah 33:18.... and to do sacrifice continually.
Jer 33:18 (YLT) .... and making sacrifice--all the days.'


Jeremiah 35:19.... to stand before me for ever.
Jer 35:19 (YLT.... standing before me is not cut off all the days.'

1 Samuel 2:32.... and there shall not be an old man in thine house for ever.
1Sa 2:32 (YLT) ....and there is not an old man in thy house all the days.

1 Samuel 2:35.... and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
1Sa 2:35 (YLT) ..., and he hath walked up and down before Mine anointed all the days;

Try reading Young's Literal Translation, rather than reading a dynamic translation where one makes a Hebrew word experience polysemy ....

Ramban (Nachmanides; Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman) (1194-1270 C.E.)
wrote "yom" as a single day, a scholar, and long before Science even existed, let alone evolution

Shalom

I don't see the problem Barb seems to be experiencing.
Yom: a 24 hour day.
"all the days" = all the 24 hour days

It can mean all the days, or forever, but broken up into 24 hour periods or days.

Would this be correct rthom7 ?

I use YLT a lot.

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If you think "Yom" means "all the days" instead of "one 24 hour day", how exactly is that different than "forever?" The text doesn't say "all the yom." It says "yom", which you've told us means "all the days." That means each "yom" in Genesis could mean "all the days."

There's really no way out of this, but to admit what it is.

You seem to be looking to argue your way to a victory.
Do you really have anything to say?

 

[Barbarian]

You seem to be looking to argue your way to a victory.

The truth matters. It should matter to you, too. As you see, "Yom" does not mean what he wants it to mean. No way to dodge that.

Other than crabbing at me for bringing up facts you don't like, do you really have anything to say?

 

[Barbarian]

I don't see the problem Barb seems to be experiencing.
Yom: a 24 hour day.
"all the days" = all the 24 hour days

He's translating "Yom" as "all the days", and then suggesting that we should ignore part of that. It doesn't say "all the (Yom)"; it says "Yom."

And it means, in those verses, "forever."