quoting coop,
Quote:
OK, let's discuss this "wrath of Satan. When, or where maybe, in your mind, would we find this time in Revelation? Well, we don't even get introduced to the beast and false prophet until chapter 13. We find this fits, for in chapter 12, we read that Satan is cast down from heaven, and is very angry, for he knows his time is short. We know from Daniel that the abomintion event will take place at the midpoint. Therefore, we see that this time of greatest tribulation will start at the midpoint of the 70th week, and go for 3 1/2 years. Hmm. Chapter 13 tells us that the beast is given authority for 42 months, so this fits.
What I was referring to as the 'wrath of Satan' is described in Dan.7
Daniel 7:22 (KJV)
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Daniel 7:23 (KJV)
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Daniel 7:24 (KJV)
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Daniel 7:25 (KJV)
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 7:26 (KJV)
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Daniel 7:27 (KJV)
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Also in Rev.13
Revelation 13:3 (KJV)
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Revelation 13:4 (KJV)
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:5 (KJV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Revelation 13:6 (KJV)
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Revelation 13:7 (KJV)
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This 3.5 year tribulation is in the 5th Seal (Rev.6:9-11). The signs of Christ's Return are in the 6th Seal (Rev.6:12-14). And the Wrath of God is the 7th Seal (Rev.6:15-8:1). The saints who are seen in Rev.7 are in God's presence before God's wrath is poured out.
You did very well here, right up to the last paragraph, where you attempted to tell us where all these verses fit. You will of course, notice that the quotes from Revelation are from chapter 13; exactly my point in what you quoted from me. In truth, there is not one word or even hint of the antichrist beast before chapter 12 in the book. Anyone that tries to find the antichrist before this, i.e. is chapters 1-11, will simply be in error.
You said, "The signs of Christ's Return are in the 6th Seal (Rev.6:12-14). " In this also you err, for these are not the signs of His return, but the signs from Joel that the day of the Lord are about to start. Jesus said that the signs before his return would be "immediately after the tribulation of those days..." Sorry, but you cannot get to the "tribulation of those days," until after Satan is cast down, and enters into the beast, and the abomination event occurs.
YOu said, "The saints who are seen in Rev.7 are in God's presence before God's wrath is poured out." In this one point you are in agreement with John! Great!
Quote:
Therefore, we see that there are five hints to the midpoint, all found in chapters 11,12, and 13. It should be clear then, that the second 1260 days will be from that point in Revelation on to about chapter 16. This is the time of the last seven plagues, brought on the earth by God, with the vials of His wrath. Wow! So you see that this time of the wrath of Satan, is the same time as the wrath of God! Both Satan's wrath and God's wrath is running concurently. Therefore, if we are to be saved from God's wrath, then we are also saved from Satan's wrath. And indeed, that is just what John shows us: the 70th week and the day of the Lord start right after the 6th seal, and the cosmic signs, with the 7th seal. The trumpets are in the first 1260 days, and the vials are in the last 1260 days. God's wrath covers the entire week, but Satan's wrath is only after he is cast down at the midpoint.
Many of the chapters of Revelation are parenthetical, meaning they give more information at different times for the different Seals. The chapters are not necessarily in chronological order.
This is your opinion, and I don't share it. Why would God attempt to confuse us with flashbacks, backpeddling, etc, rather than just marching straight through time, exactly as a history book would tell it? In fact, the book of Revelation fits perfectly with the rest of scripture exactly as it is written, and there is no need to change the order at all. Many people go to minor scriptures first, and attempt to establish doctrine there, and then when they get to the major scripture, they have to re-arrange it to fit their doctrine. A case in point is where Jesus mentions the cosmic signs just before his return. Any student of Revelation knows that His return is in Chapter 19, not in chapter 6 or 7. Therefore, proper exegesis would be to obtain doctrine FIRST from the major scripture and then fill in pieces from minor scriptures. Of course, the major scripture here is the book of Revelation.
John was so chronological in His book, (and the visions that he saw to write) that he had to break from his realtime timeline, to go tell about things that must take place before the next realtime event could take place. For example, John could not tell about the 7th seal, before he shows us the sealing of the 144,000. The day of the Lord will start with the 7th seal, and the sealing of the 144,000 MUST be accomplished before that 7th seal can be broken. So John breaks from his realtime after the sixth seal, and goes to an "intermission" to tell us what must happen before that 7th seal can be broken.
Therefore, I have created an "axiom," for this:
"Any doctrine that has to change the chronological order of the book of Revelation is immediately suspect, and probably wrong."
If you think Revelation order must be changed, then please show us why.
Many start with the premise that there is 7 years to fit into Revelation. That premise is based on a wrong understanding of Daniel Nine, IMO. You say that the 70th Week starts the same time as the Day of the Lord. What happened to your so-called peace in the first half of the 70th Week.
It is just common sense, and putting scriptures together. Daniel said that the abomination event would take place in the midst of the week. This divides the week into two halves. Just by common sense, then one would expect to find two each 3 1/2 year periods of time. It has been written many times that bible prophecy uses a 360 day year, so again, just by common sense, one could expect to find this 3 1/2 year period written as 42 months or as 1260 days. Indeed, Daniel mentions this half week time as "time, times and half of time." In fact, John uses ""time, times and half of time" once also. However, just to make sure we get it, John also uses the 1260 days, and the 42 months. Since we know that these timeframes are only one half of the week, then we know that there must be two of them, one 1260 day period before the abomination event, and one 1260 day period after the abomination event.
John mentions this 3 1/2 year time frame five different times! The question is, why, or what was he showing us? One day when I was reading Daniel, I got to the verse where he mentioned the abomintion. I was just minding my own business, reading, when suddenly, at that verse, the Holy Spirit spoke inside me, and said, "You could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in Revelation."
I listened in as my spirit man answered Him: "how would I find that?"
He answered again, "When I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint of the week, and go to the end, I included the time frame of 3 1/2 years. If you find these mentions of this timeframe, the exact midpoint will be very close." (this was three years ago, so I may not have the exact words.) He went on to say, "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked' in Revelation."
You can believe that I immediately started a search in Revelation! Indeed, God included five different times that the 3 1/2 years are mentioned. I am sure this was just so that we would not miss it! Each time, it involves something that starts at the midpoint, and goes to the end of the week. The first will be the Gentiles in the temple court yard. The second will be the two witnesses, who will show up just before the midpoint, and witness to the end of the week. The third and fourth will be the remnant that will flee into the wilderness for the last 3 1/2 years. The fifth will be the beast given authority over the saints for the last 42 months.
Now, doesn't it make good sense, if there is the last 3 1/2 years, that there must be a first 3 1/2 years? It just won't work if you split the week by two thousand years! Else the abomination event would not be in the "midst." In fact, this is just what the book of Revelation teaches us. The exact midpoint is the 7th trumpet. What comes after, the 7 vials, are in the last half of the week, and what comes before, i.e., the first 6 trumpets, are in the first half of the week. Keep in mind that the trumpets are what is taking place in heaven, but affecting earth. What else is happening on earth? Where is this peace you mentioned? The peace is undoubted ONLY between the Muslims and Israel. The beast may well be fighting elsewhere, building his reputation. (See Daniel 11, last few verses). Therefore, I stand by what I said: the day of the Lord, and the 70th week both start with the 7th seal. When that seal is being broken in heaven, the beast is signing a peace treaty in Jerusalem, IMO.
The Great Tribulation (of the saints during the 'mark of the beast' period) is already over before the start of the 7th Seal Judgment (Rev.7:13-17).
Wouldn't you think God would have showed something as important as this, if it were true? In fact, God does show us, but in chapter 12 and 13, which are midpoint chapters. Jesus said he was coming back "immediately after" but yet John shows us that many things (indeed 7 years of things) happen between the 7th seal and chapter 19, when Jesus truely comes back. Perhaps you could show us some verses that helped you come to your conclusion?
Quote:
Sorry, but John sees the church in heaven, in Rev 7, before the 7th seal is even broken, and before the 70th week has started. The rapture of the church will take place before the day of the Lord starts. That way, we are saved from His wrath.
Where we disagree is with the timing of the 70th week. The first half of the 70th week was from Christ's baptism to His resurrection day. The second half is the future 3.5 year Tribulation period out of which the saints in Rev.7:13,14 are saved.
If what you say it truth, then Daniel was wrong when he said that the abomination event would split the week into two halves. And John proves this by showing two halves of the week in his book, still future. Sorry, but the abomination did not happen during Jesus' life on earth. In fact, it has not happened, but is still in our future.
Quote:
nol --The 'end time' is always expressed as equivalent to 3.5 years not seven years. The time of the 'two witnesses' is concurent with the time of the beasts 3.5 year reign. The 'two witnesses' and the beast are in opposition to one another.
Please show us some scripture for this? INdeed, the last 3 1/2 years are shown as 1260 days, and 42 months, but this is after the abomination event that splits the week.
[Revelation 11:3 - 13 removed from quote]
In fact, I agree with your above statement, not about the 3.5 years, but about the timing of the witnesses. I believe that the witnesses will be on earth during the last 3 1/2 years, and during the time of the beast's 42 months of authority over the saints. I must admit, I did not read this clearly enough the first time. What you said is correct. However, this 42 months is clearly after the abomination event according to Daniel.
Quote:
There will be a full seven years; John and Daniel make this plain. Time will tell if you are right about the spring'fall thing. However, when is the festival of ingathering? It seems that that will be when the rapture takes place, and when the week will start.
The Feast of Ingathering is also called the Feast of Tabernacles. It starts on the 15th of the 7th month (Lev.23:33-44). The Feast of Trumpets is on the 1st day of the 7th month. The Day of Atonement is on the 10th day of the 7th month.
It is likely that the 70th week of Daniel Nine will conclude in association with the Day of Atonement and its conjunction with the Jubilee (Lev.25:1-10).
Daniel Nine verse 24 is very much the language of Jubilee and the Day of Atonement. Jubilee means trumpet blast. The "Last Trump" (1Cor.15:52; 1Thes.4:16-18) could very well be the ultimate Jubilee and the conclusion of the 70th week.
nol
(compare Joel 2:10-11 & Amos 1:2) These verses too, hardly seem to imply any 'secret' rapture!