Tithe

[GaryArnold]

The Bible CLEARLY SHOWS that the tithe ENDED at the cross in the Book of Hebrews. In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES. The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7.

In Hebrews 7:5 we are told that Levi (the Levites) took the tithes under the law. In Hebrews 7:12 we are told that when the priesthood changes, the law will change. Hebrews 7:18 is telling us that Numbers 18 was disannulled. Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood, and part of that establishing included tithing. When the Levitical priesthood ended (at Calvary, or at least in the year 70AD when the temple was destroyed), all laws that established that priesthood were canceled. If Numbers 18 wasn't canceled, we would still be under the Levitical priesthood.

 

[GaryArnold]

Abraham's tithe was NOT carried over into the Mosaic law. Abraham gave a tenth of the war spoils. According to Numbers 31, the Mosaic law required far less than a tenth of the war spoils to be given to the Levites. Conclusion: Abraham's tithe had NOTHING to do with the law of tithing.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for your very Born Again concept. Christ documented John 3:3 for just the past/tense Nic also you document!.
--Elijah

YOu seem to be unable to grasp even the simplest of concepts....its no wonder youre misrepresenting the scriptures.
Jesus was a jew born under LAW....as were ALL of his Jewish listeners.
WE are NOT Jews born under LAW...we are gentiles born under GRACE....we are under a DIFFERENT COVENANT!

There....does that help clear the fog ?

 

[Guest]

The Bible CLEARLY SHOWS that the tithe ENDED at the cross in the Book of Hebrews. In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES. The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7.

Which is VERY odd *IF* tithing were still in practice in the church given how much giving is talked about in the NT.

 

[Guest]

Conclusion: Abraham's tithe had NOTHING to do with the law of tithing.

I agree.
And even if it did it still wouldnt mean that tithing is a New covenant precept.
There is no evidence at all in the NT that the church is to practice dead letter percentages.
New covenant giving is about equality and a cheerful heart.

 

[Elijah674]

Thanks for your very Born Again concept. Christ documented John 3:3 for just the past/tense Nic also you document!.
--Elijah

YOu seem to be unable to grasp even the simplest of concepts....its no wonder youre misrepresenting the scriptures.
Jesus was a jew born under LAW....as were ALL of his Jewish listeners.
WE are NOT Jews born under LAW...we are gentiles born under GRACE....we are under a DIFFERENT COVENANT!

There....does that help clear the fog ?

Way to much personal (Heb. 6:6) stuff. Forget the individual & just apply your remarks to what is Eternal Gospel Rev. 14:6 [FACT]! John 3:3 had NO New Church Established as of yet. Being Born Again was Christ's Message for MANKIND of which Nic was part of... JEWISH! Rom. 2:28-29's HEART TRANSPLANT! Adam REQUIRED A NEW HEART AS WELL!

And 'DIFFERENT COVENANT'? And N.T. 'Testimony' 2 Cor. 3:3 has the First Heart Transplant Documented! + (Born Again!) New 'ETERNAL' Covenant of Heb. 8:10 has this ETERNAL MESSAGE OMNIPRESENT at the SENDING BACK OF THE HOLY GHOST + Heb. 10:14-23 which was not so in the O.T.. And it is [ALL STILL CONDITIONAL OF ONES FREE CHOICE!] ibide. 23 + Heb. 11:13 finds these most all still are DEAD Jews dieing [IN THE FAITH]! Eph. 4:4-5.

And Tithing? Whatever
But it is NO WONDER we see the 'TRUE' UNITY of the Two Camps in Matt. 6:24. And ALL OF THESE [LOOSE 'TITHE/LESS' CANNONS] will never again be found in heaven or the rebellion would just start all over again!

And God does change some teach! Mal. 3:6 + N.T. Heb. 13:8 FINDS THE NEVER/CHANGING CHRIST. As it was Jewish THEFT documented in both the Lord's freely given bounties that is the question of who lies, God or satan! 'Will a man rob God? [YET YE HAVE ROBBED ME. But [you say, wherein have WE ROBBED THEE?] In Tithes + [OFFERINGS],' Even that is interesting! They even toss out ETERNAL TRUTH with offerings being only Jewish. And these ones LOVE Christ they say??

--Elijah

 

[Guest]

Way to much personal (Heb. 6:6) stuff. Forget the individual & just apply your remarks to what is Eternal Gospel Rev. 14:6 [FACT]! John 3:3 had NO New Church Established as of yet. Being Born Again was Christ's Message for MANKIND of which Nic was part of... JEWISH! Rom. 2:28-29's HEART TRANSPLANT! Adam REQUIRED A NEW HEART AS WELL!

And 'DIFFERENT COVENANT'? And N.T. 'Testimony' 2 Cor. 3:3 has the First Heart Transplant Documented! + (Born Again!) New 'ETERNAL' Covenant of Heb. 8:10 has this ETERNAL MESSAGE OMNIPRESENT at the SENDING BACK OF THE HOLY GHOST + Heb. 10:14-23 which was not so in the O.T.. And it is [ALL STILL CONDITIONAL OF ONES FREE CHOICE!] ibide. 23 + Heb. 11:13 finds these most all still are DEAD Jews dieing [IN THE FAITH]! Eph. 4:4-5.

And Tithing? Whatever
But it is NO WONDER we see the 'TRUE' UNITY of the Two Camps in Matt. 6:24. And ALL OF THESE [LOOSE 'TITHE/LESS' CANNONS] will never again be found in heaven or the rebellion would just start all over again!

And God does change some teach! Mal. 3:6 + N.T. Heb. 13:8 FINDS THE NEVER/CHANGING CHRIST. As it was Jewish THEFT documented in both the Lord's freely given bounties that is the question of who lies, God or satan! 'Will a man rob God? [YET YE HAVE ROBBED ME. But [you say, wherein have WE ROBBED THEE?] In Tithes + [OFFERINGS],' Even that is interesting! They even toss out ETERNAL TRUTH with offerings being only Jewish. And these ones LOVE Christ they say??

--Elijah

ugh.....yawn.....so much irrelevance.

Once more and you can have it from here.
THE TITHE IS OVER !
This is a NEW COVENANT!
NEW TESTAMENT GIVING is about CHEERFULNESS and EQUALITY !
There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that the tithe was practiced in the NT after CHrists death !
"will a man rob God.....tithes"....DEAD SYSTEM, gent....OLD testament...NOT NEW !


That said, yet again, if you want to pay your tithe, do so....no one here is telling you not to....but dont try push a dead system down our throats...we aint buying it and your wasting your time trying to tell us different

 

[Guest]

READERS, (I'm no longer interested in discussing this with Elijah)
Seems that pretty much every mention of the tithe AFTER Jesus died to ratify the NEW covenant is in Hebrews 7

But observe how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth from the spoils. And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to collect tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brothers, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; but the one not tracing his descent from them has received tithes from Abraham, and he has blessed the one having the promises. Now without any contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. And here on one hand mortal men receive tithes, but there on the other it is witnessed that he lives. Even Levi, the one receiving tithes, has paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
(Heb 7:4-10 EMTV)

We have two tithes here from what I can see.
- One was Abraham giving a tenth of the SPOILS of WAR.....anyone fighting a WAR here ?
- The second was for the LEVITES to be collected ACCORDING TO THE LAW...anyone under the LAW here ?

other than the gospel references to the tithe BEFORE Jesus died to set this new covenant into place, thus making the old obsolete (of no use), there really isnt anything in the NT and certainly NONE of it shows that the NT church is to tithe.

 

[Mysteryman]

What I find interesting about the discussion of this subject. What I find interesting, is as to why anyone would want to go back to the law. The law was not only bondage, but it was not suppose to last forever. The law was righteous, but it was not made for a righteous man. And at one point, it was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

Giving from the heart and equality is not being taught. And the purpose of giving is not being taught. Now that is not to say, that a few groups have taught giving from the heart and equality. But for the most part the majority do not even come close to this truth.

I find this holds true with subjects such as water cleansing, as well. Yet people want tradtions of men, instead of truth.

 

[Elijah674]

It seems that there was a question for the Word of God to answer about His REQUIRED Obedience of His Tithes + OFFERINGS?

LORD, You say that to LOVE YOU is for us to keep... 'Keep My Commandments'. And Eccl. 3:14-15 is very interesting! It says..

[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, (OR SAYS?) it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
[15] That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

But not us robbing you in Both Tithes + [OFFERINGS] huh, lord, because the Jer, 17:5 'arm of flesh' ones say so? And Lord, that sounds just like your Inspired verse 15 below's Repeat of Rev. 22:18-19.. (and you require what? 'that which is past!)

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, [God shall take away his part out of the book of life,] and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
And Lord, we do know that it was the un/inspired men that divided your BOOK up into parts! Even down to the numbers, chapters, coma's + periods! and yes, even the division from the Mal. last verse, & Matt. 1:1's first pened verse of dividing the O.T. & N.T..

Mal. 3
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
[7] Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
[8] Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
[9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
[10] Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

And Paul surely believed in [ALL THE WORD OF GOD]! Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16 + Using it ALL for the Doctrine of both Tithes + OFFERINGS, as we see below in 1 Cor. 8:5-14.

Hey, pay attention. The Robbing of God is the ISSUE, not Paul's faithfulness! It is the issue of God knowing what is in your heart, not what a great provider of His Gospel + workers that you profess to be! You know, the [Rev. 17:1-5] ones have the Eccl 12:13-14 RECORDS ACCURATELY RECORDED!

[5] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[6] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. [Doth God take care for oxen?]
[10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
(at least at the start with few starting up the New Church work))
[13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter?

[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

But Lord, us'ins of Matt. 7's BROADWAY know best, huh! Obadiah 1:16 (for just a short time longer!)

--Elijah

 

[Guest]

again..READERS,
Seems that pretty much every mention of the tithe AFTER Jesus died to ratify the NEW covenant is in Hebrews 7

But observe how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth from the spoils. And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to collect tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brothers, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; but the one not tracing his descent from them has received tithes from Abraham, and he has blessed the one having the promises. Now without any contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. And here on one hand mortal men receive tithes, but there on the other it is witnessed that he lives. Even Levi, the one receiving tithes, has paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
(Heb 7:4-10 EMTV)

We have two tithes here from what I can see.
- One was Abraham giving a tenth of the SPOILS of WAR.....anyone fighting a WAR here ?
- The second was for the LEVITES to be collected ACCORDING TO THE LAW...anyone under the LAW here ?

other than the gospel references to the tithe BEFORE Jesus died to set this new covenant into place, thus making the old obsolete (of no use), there really isnt anything in the NT and certainly NONE of it shows that the NT church is to tithe.

 

[LaCrum]

there really isnt anything in the NT and certainly NONE of it shows that the NT church is to tithe.

And exactly how effectively would a church run with no capital?

 

[Guest]

there really isnt anything in the NT and certainly NONE of it shows that the NT church is to tithe.

And exactly how effectively would a church run with no capital?

Well, you might want to actually READ more of waht Ive posted ;)

The NT isnt about compulsory tithe, but instead about giving with a cheerful heart.
The woman someone pointed out who gave ALL that she had....was it forced ? Didnt she go BEYOND 10% of her own free will ?
THAT is NT giving!


When its compulsory like the OT tithe it doest the giver little good at all. hes just doing what he is TOLD to do. There is no NT precept that Ive seen in my 25 years of study that makes me believe that that is how it is to be done now.

What we DO see are passages that tell us that Elders are worthy of double honor..

Let the elders having ruled well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox threshing grain," and, "The worker is worthy of his wages."
(1Ti 5:17-18 EMTV)
If the man is working in Gods fields he DESERVES to be compensated and provided for by those whom he works for....


But getting back to the facts, the tithe is simply OT. That much we cannot get around.
Its a very good guideline to use, for certain, but as someone else said, some dont have it and some have FAR more.
NT giving is about equality that we all have what we need. It isnt about having funds in a church bank account to purchase a long list of frivolous junk (again, I work with some churches and I know the types of things they spend Gods money on...VERY frivolous at times...money better spent on a hungry child).

Anyway....its unlikely that we'll agree on every detail, so its not that important.
I dont pay a tithe and never will.
I do give with a cheerful heart, however.

 

[LaCrum]

Anyway....its unlikely that we'll agree on every detail, so its not that important.
I dont pay a tithe and never will.
I do give with a cheerful heart, however

I understand what you're saying, but how you're saying it makes it seem like if someone gives 10% of their income to the Church (the traditional tithe amount), they are somehow breaking NT scripture.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a person sticking a percentage on it and honoring it, that's what I do. That's the only way I can stay consistent on it. My first instinct isn't always giving a portion of my income to the church, sometimes I'd rather go by stuff for my house with it, but that's what I've committed to and God has blessed me as a result. I don't think God takes offense to my giving.

 

[Elijah674]

Anyway....its unlikely that we'll agree on every detail, so its not that important.
I dont pay a tithe and never will.
I do give with a cheerful heart, however

I understand what you're saying, but how you're saying it makes it seem like if someone gives 10% of their income to the Church (the traditional tithe amount), they are somehow breaking NT scripture.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a person sticking a percentage on it and honoring it, that's what I do. That's the only way I can stay consistent on it. My first instinct isn't always giving a portion of my income to the church, sometimes I'd rather go by stuff for my house with it, but that's what I've committed to and God has blessed me as a result. I don't think God takes offense to my giving.

Hi, nothing personal meant, (So 'i' can agree, with you, huh? ;) ) And when God [TELLS] us that He will not go it alone with both [His Tithe + Offering/wise], you can be assured that His SAINTS will oblige and freely & Lovingly Obey and not be a theif!! And all offerings were ever 'free/will', huh! But not the tithe! And surely God can be & is ROBBED by the one supporting known false doctrine! Rev. 18:4.
And that reminds me of just the offering part, and some of the ones who like free/rain! Gen. 4:7 as an example? (loose/cannons!)

I pastored a group in which I most always took very little if any heed to, [as far as the treasury records were kept.] But my wife was the treasurer at times, & she told me that 'i' would really be supprised who gave what to certain offerings & who did not. We are talking of [Offerings]. She said the ones who you would think do give a lot, do not & the ones who you might think don't, do.

And most likely it is the same everwhere?? A lot of talk & looking for ways out. Kind of like Acts 5 perhaps?
And that was the Outpouring Of THe Holy Ghost Time!
--Elijah

 

[Guest]

Anyway....its unlikely that we'll agree on every detail, so its not that important.
I dont pay a tithe and never will.
I do give with a cheerful heart, however

I understand what you're saying, but how you're saying it makes it seem like if someone gives 10% of their income to the Church (the traditional tithe amount), they are somehow breaking NT scripture.

Nope...not at all.
Sorry, I dont mean for it to sound that way....tithe all one wants.
Where it become a problem is when we teach the tithe as still being a compulsory thing.

For the rich it gets them off easy...for the poor who dont even have anything to give they end up discouraged (Ive seen it a lot in my life since I deal with a number of low income and single parent families).
The church can make the poor feel like they are worthless when they just dont have a tenth to give.
Ive gone a a long list of churches who tell single mothers to give their rent money and God will bless them.
God blesses obedience...He doesnt bless stupidity. If HE directly tells a poor mother HIMSELF to give her rent money, then He WILL bless her for doing so.
But far too many preachers pretend like THEY are God mouthpiece and so they tell her to give it and then shes evicted for non payment of rent. And where are these preachers then ? Do they pay for her another house ?
I cant even begin to tell you the insanity Ive seen in both small and large churches over the years over things like tithing.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a person sticking a percentage on it and honoring it, that's what I do. That's the only way I can stay consistent on it. My first instinct isn't always giving a portion of my income to the church, sometimes I'd rather go by stuff for my house with it, but that's what I've committed to and God has blessed me as a result. I don't think God takes offense to my giving.

Absolutely agree. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.
I just dont think we should preach something as compulsory that is no longer so.
A tenth is a good guideline, but to be honest...isnt it ALL Gods ? Would we give a tenth and actually believe we have fulfilled our obligation ?

Id share some things I used to do to show you what Im talking about but regrettably I feel like 3 or 4 persons on this forum would find a way to distort and pervert it into something it isnt....

 

[Guest]

I pastored ...
--Elijah

Well, that explains it...nuff said...

YOuve 'pastored' so apparently youre used to YOUR word being law (it isnt).
And many to most pastors will teach the OLD testament tithe as still be compulsory (it isnt) to get the bills paid.

But my wife was the treasurer at times, & she told me that 'i' would really be supprised who gave what to certain offerings & who did not. We are talking of [Offerings]. She said the ones who you would think do give a lot, do not & the ones who you might think don't, do.

The discussion in and of itself is disgusting enough. What, are you 2 keeping tabs on people now ?
yeah...THAT is scriptural....

 

[Danus]

I bit off topic, but I give both time and money, both as I feel moved to do so, and not just to the church I attend.

I think sometimes we can feel if we give a set % then "we're all paid up" so to speak, and while some pastors in some churches are very talented at walking the line of Christian obligation to giving, I firmly draw the line in the faith teaching of giving - I'E...The, "give and you'll get more back", message. Often worded as "You can't out give God!"

While that may be, it's often twisted to the churches advantage for the upcoming new parking lot or latest building expansion.

If someone wants to give to that ....fine, but I've seen scripture slanted to fill such direction and inject guilt while the pastor drives off in his new BMW sports roadster. Again, if someone wants to support a church in that way, fine. I just don't want my money supporting the effort to do just that alone. I'd hand $5 to a bum and pray for him before I'd give the same amount to some churches.

 

[Elijah674]

So it seems that the bottom line is that because the church's are Prophesied as THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH by the Godhead, (Rev. 17:1-5) thenyou are free to be the same disobedient trash/heep? ?

If that is the case, then you best find the Eternal Gospel of Rev. 14:6 which is not so, (Eph. 4:5) and if that cannot be done by you??? (Rom. 8:14) Then you best start up a church that lives what is taught in the Word of God, including you. ALL OF IT! Matt. 4:4 + Matt. 23:3 that starts with the WORD OF ALL!

--Elijah

 

[GaryArnold]

Using ten percent as a guideline could be flat out wrong for the following reasons:

1 - God gave us The Holy Spirit. Using an OT law for a guideline is following the guidance of the law instead of following The Holy Spirit.

2 - Prayer is not involved when using a set percentage. There is no heart involved. It is done out of habit.

3 - Using a set percentage might actually restrict how much you give.

4 - If times are tough, sticking to a set percentage might result in bills not getting paid. That goes against Biblical teachings.

Now, IF The Holy Spirit directs you to give a tenth of your income, then you should do it.

God does NOT bless Christians for keeping Old Testament laws. God does bless Christians for giving. God knows the heart. Many give from the heart but make the mistake of calling it tithing.