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Tithing/Giving at Church

Mike

Mike

Member
A couple things here regarding tithing. I'm interested to hear how people view tithing for the Christian. Is it consistent with the New Testament, or is it Old Testament legalism?

I also want to talk about giving in general at church. I've spent time on the admin side of a church and know what it takes to keep our staff and facility running. There are people who feel "all the pastor ever talks about is money", even if he only brings it up a few times a year. How do people expect a church to operate if offerings are not called for? Radio ministries appeal for offerings at the end of every show. Does that bother you? Does this bother you, if you're bothered by pastors bringing it up?

Finally, does the way your church spends the money impact your offerings, or do you take the attitude that "I'm giving to the Lord. How they choose to use it is something they will have to answer for." or do you feel it's on you to be wise and prudent with your offerings and not give as much if you see them spending it unwisely?

I did state my position as clearly as I did in an unrelated thread, so here goes...

2 Cor 9:
" <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28947">6</sup>Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28948">7</sup>Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28949">8</sup>And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work."

There are blessings in the act of giving with a glad heart. For me, it has the effect of loosening the grip money has on me. While I don't fixate on the 10%, ideally I think we should give more, but it has to be with that happy heart. Whether is below, at or above 10%, God knows your heart. If it is given out of obligation, He doesn't want it, but we should strive to be at an inner place that it isn't an obligation, but a joy. The 10% figure seems to me part of the old law, and personally, I don't feel it is consistent with the freedom of Christianity to feel that number is required. 2 Cor 9 tells me that it's not the amount, but the motivation in giving.
 
You've summed up my beliefs about giving pretty well, Mike. I think that placing any kind of percentage on how much someone is to give is indeed legalism. Whatever one wants to give is good, as long as it is given freely and cheerfully. I also think that the "gift" of service, taking turns mowing the lawn, or cleaning the bathrooms or whatever also constitutes as giving as unto the Lord.

Your point about how the pastor's salary gets paid, how the light bill gets paid, etc. is well taken. Some can say that the early church met in homes and had jobs, and so didn't have all the "overhead" and the gifts given went directly to helping those in need. And all that's true enough. So, if one feels that one shouldn't have to give to upkeep a building, a pastor and the light bills, then one should attend a home fellowship church.

However, I've found it to be true (at least in my experience) that churches with buildings, pastors, "overhead" also have much more resources for benevolence and supporting missionaries and evangelists. Therefore, I don't mind supporting the church with money, even though money is often quite tight for us.
 
I think people should give freely to the church. Should they be pushed to? No. Is it good to? Yes. If anything, I would measure in what spirit the money was given and in what spirit it was asked for, if asked for at all. Quite frankly, the church has expenses and needs money to pay them. If someone doesn't like that fact, have a home service, as Handy said. But in turn, the expenses should not be a dominant part of the church requests, messages, conversations to the congregation, etc.

I see a problem if all the church ever asks for is money and they use it...egoistically. For instance, I have a RC church in the area that recently rebuilt the building to make it bigger. There was no need to; the old building wasn't even full. Now there is a huge mansion with stained glass and all the works. That I don't like, as the money could have been spent more wisely. Charities, missionaries, outreach groups, etc.
However, I do understand a church's need for money. My church has expenses to pay, the pastor, its missionaries to fund, and it helps other churches out because they themselves don't have enough money to pay the bills, let alone to other things. Not to mention other organizations like crisis pregnancy centers and the like. Many of the (Protestant especially) churches are slightly renovated homes and are generally small.
 
There is one thing about the tithe that most people either don't realize or just forget. The tithe was never for everyone. It was only for farmers. Tithes were always either crops or of the increase of herds or flocks. I have often wished I was a farmer so I could go to a church where tithing is required and bring some sheep with me.
 
I believe that people should "tithe" of their "first fruits" and should give of their time, talents, and money as they are led by God and are able. For some, giving of money is not a possibility, but they have time or talents they can contribute. For others, they may lack in time, but may be financially able to give. Everyone has something to contribute and should. I do not believe in asking widows, orphans, elderly on fixed incomes, etc. to "tithe". As the church we are called to support these people, not to take from them.

I have been in churches that seem to be begging for money every service. It is quite a turn-off. I am also not a fan of the manner in which some ask for money. I was in a church once where the former pastor came up to pray over the offering, and he starts out by saying, "I see the financial records in the church office and according to what some of you are giving you must all be very poor." I felt that statement was in very poor taste. What an individual gives is between the individual and God. Once there was a church I worked for running their child care center and they asked me to give special discounts, hiring preferences, etc. to "tithing members". I chose not to work there very long after that. :shame I am not a fan of special preferential treatment for "tithing members". In fact, when I have tithed my entire life I put my money in with no envelope. I do not want any "credit" nor tally of what I give. It is between God and I.

Mike, I understand what you are saying when you ask the question about how is a church to operate when offerings are not called for, but let me tell you about two churches I have been in that did not call for offerings. Both of these churches had a box in the church where individual could give as they were led, and never once passed an offering plate nor asked for offerings in the services. The only time a mention of asking for money was made was if a specific fundraising for a specific missions project was being called for. Both of these churches had plenty of money and supported missions. The one church gave so much towards missions that they were among the top in their denomination, even though their congregation was much smaller than most. Mel Tari, in the book Like a Mighty Wind, actually suggests for churches to operate in that manner-- to place a box in the church and just trust God for the money. I have wondered if there have been any studies done on churches who switched to this method and does their contributions increase or decrease? It would be an interesting study if it hasn't been done yet.
 
PR, all very good points. :) I've never been to a church that didn't ask but simply left an open basket for offerings. That would be ideal, especially if they had plain envelopes so no one would know how much others were giving.

It really should be between the Lord and the person. My church has a school associated with it. We have minimal... I mean minimal amounts of offering and church attendance required for the "membership rate". It comes out to about $20 per week. I don't think that's too much to ask for a member rate, but we have problems with it. As far as required attendance, I hear discussions among members who try to figure out how many services they have to attend to hit the minimum requirement. I makes me sad. :shame

Time, talents and treasure. They all add up. In the end, it all comes down to where the heart is. This may seem contradictory, but I'm talking about receiving membership benefits and having a membership rate.
 
Mike, you basically said what I stated in the Elitism thread. :yes

I am part of a Southern Baptist congregation. I too know what it takes to meet the budget needs. The SBC is grass roots, very democratic. All members are allowed and encouraged to come to monthly meetings. I attend them whenever I can.

The congregation as a whole makes almost all of the spending and administrative decisions, based on votes. I just wish more members would show up... and realize that giving is based on not just a cheerful heart, but is also based on the minimum requirements needed to tun a healthy assembly and a healthy ministry.

We all need to trust the Lord in giving us what we need to operate the church but we also need to realize HE uses us to do HIS will. Blessing will be bestowed on any congregation that releases that.

Oh yeah, tithing. It is neither consistent with the NT or is it OT legalism. It's a baseline for giving. if you are led to give more, don't hold back.
 
.

Where I live, one of the megachurch (22,000 members) recently told the congregation that they were going to coillect additional funds for new church building the following Sunday, and the Senior Pastor emphasized NO specific amount and that NO one should feel obligated to give if they do not want to.

Come next Sunday, a long queue started forming as early as 7am for the 9am service. The amount collected that Sunday was about USD30 million, exceeding their own previous collection of about USD25 million last year !

Everyone that I know from that Non-denominational church gave with a cheerful heart, and I heard many testimonies of how God blessed them back.




:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup
 
As a young adult & college student -in the past- I have tithed when I could, but very irregularly and have gone to over three churches (depending on where I was on the weekends) and was a member of none of them, so I never got plugged in permanently to sow to one consitently and had an ever-fluctuating bank account (paying for tuition, books, etc. which would zero it each semester almost). Now I have a career job (just started last month) and have been so blessed that I feel it is only right to tithe out of gratitude & thanks, but at the very moment that I just now am learning what real life and paying bills are like, even though I even budgeted in advance my tithe (or rather should say factored tithes into my existing budget for food, gas, bills, other expenses, spending money, savings, etc.), I at first started to panic since I realize there are so many other things I need to pay for right now that will take months to save for, but then I remembered that God was gracious to me to even provide me with as well-paying a job as I have gotten and that it is a matter of faith and showing my gratitude through tithes to God for his goodness.

My pastor at the Church I am now attending always opens the offerings with this promise, "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows" (Malachi 3:10). It is not for that reason we give, but it is a challenge for us to rise up in faith to meet with expectation.

The stress over what I have to budget for in the next few months has not gone away, but I want to begin to be faithful in my tithing. May God enable me to do it faithfully.

Amen,

~Josh
 
Josh, I have always enjoyed your posts and I have learnt quite a bit from you since I joined CFnet. I wish I can get my faith to a point were it is as strong as yours. (And a couple of other posters)

My budget doesn't allow to tithe. I'm a single mom and the bulk of my salary goes towards my daughter's education and development. She goes to a special school and the fees will make any person's eyes water. Then there is the occupational therapy, speech therapy, swimming lessons to help with her muscle development, and the additional 'reading school' that she attends once a week. Over and above that it is the life insurance I took out to ensure that she won't miss out on any of her therapy if mommy passes away. I have to get to work and back and I need to pay the rent.
There really is no money at the end of the month to save for Christmas or birthday presents. Fortunately I have the option to encash some of my leave every year and I use those funds for birthday parties and Christmas presents.

If I had the ability I would give everything I had to the church, because our church's books are open for anyone who wants to take a look, and I can honestly say that all the money that the church receives goes to good use. I mean, even our minister gets paid less than I do. Far less as a matter of fact. His outlook is just that his wife has her own practice and they don't need him to earn a huge salary.

So in short, I don't have money to give, but I give my time and my shoulders and my prayers to my 'other family'. My real family sponsors the petrol to get there. :)
 
This can be a sore subject. I used to lie awake at night and listen to my mother and father fight non stop over tithing and our church. It drew a lot of misconceptions concerning it, and took me a LONG time to overcome.

I attend a southern baptist fellowship also. They are big into tithing, but I have to say that our pastor does not seem to dwell on it too much. I have been to others that would a whole lot, and it was indeed a turn off when scripture is taken out of context.

I have also known of fellowships that did quite well with the box in the back method. I understand that it takes money to run a building, and to pay for expenses associated with it. A full time pastor does indeed need a salary to live, but what happened to parsonages? Our pastor is not one, but there are some that would consider a residence provided by the fellowship as "inadequate".

The books should always be open for people to look. But to get to the heart of the matter, I see no where in New Testament teaching that the tithe is something to be considered as a "bench mark" or otherwise associated with a persons giving. I hope that it does not cause any grief with those of you that beleive otherwise, but I draw my line when it comes to the inturpretation of Scripture and New Testament writtings. Personal inturpretation is not optional in my book.

If it is something someone would like to debate one on one I would be more than glad. I am quite comfortable in the faith on this matter. With that said...my wife and I give. How much? Who knows. We give until it hurts sometimes. Is it all money? No. But I will be 100% honest here, if God wanted me to drain every penny out of my bank account and give it to our fellowship, or even another, I would do it in a heart beat.

Would it be hard? Yea, it would. But I am underneath His leadership and I must do what He calls me too when I know He is indeed calling me. I think that might be why I have no issues with the tithe. If people want to say they "tithe", so be it. Even if you want to tell me that I should, that is fine. Just do not try and make Scripture tell us that we should.

I think a local fellowship, church, could get along just fine if the pastor taught the Bible as it is written without adding, or taking away anything. I think that the bills that needed to be paid would get paid, and God would have free reign. Most often than not, people do not see how God is working and try to help Him along in their own efforts. I listened to a man tell his congregation last week that, "the New Testament church sold everything they had and had all things in common. Now you choose if you want to be like them, or if the tithe is good enough for you"....huh?

It is natural for man to take things to an extreme. But this is definitely one of my hot buttons that if it were not for the Spirit giving me strength, I could really tear someones head off for taking passages out of context. Bottom line-If God tells you to give, give. How do I know He is telling me to give? Listen.

The tithe has notoriously made men think that they are doing God a favor, or that they are fulfilling their "obligations". Jesus said "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others."

The tithe is stressed many times more than these things that were obviously considered "weightier". In fact, people will go to the extent of trying to take this in context and say that Jesus did say that, but He also said that they were not to have "neglected the others" like tithe.

No. I am sorry. He was saying that the "weightier" matters should be done. Period. And then they should not neglect the other things like the tithe and such. How many tithe preachers are going to ask those people in their congregations to not give if they are not being faithful to God, or showing mercy to others? I have not heard one ever say it.

Some radio preachers/programs do bother me when they ask for money. And in fact, the ones that I will generally grow spiritually by listening, the ones that actually feed me meat and not milk, are ones that do not ask for donations. Is it because they do not ask that I grow? Is it subliminal? No, I do not think. Because it was not till I really thought about it that I realized they do not ask.

The love of money is the root of all sorts of evil. God has provided richly, beyond measure, for me and my household. In fact, I feel like I am overly blessed sometimes. It is humbling. Do I live in a mansion? A really big house? Drive a nice car? Own a lot of things? No. None of these. In fact, if anything I would be considered "lower class" by some.

I am quite content with what I have. I might not give 10% of each paycheck to the local fellowship I go to. But I will say that if there were ever a need that arose and God called me too it, I would do it. See, many people think they are "off the hook" because they give 20-30% of their income. Only if they realized that God wants them, not their money.

Please, give. But do not fall into the trap of the tithe. Purpose in your heart what God is calling you to give, and do not consider the tithe as any "mark". If God is calling you to give it all, give it all. If God is calling you to give none...give none. "How do I know what God is calling me to give?" Ask Him. See, what He really wants is the relationship with you. And when the relationship is intact...where justice, mercy, love, and faithfulness are active in you life....then you will hear what God is calling you to give monetarily and there will be no doubt what it is.
 
It's all fine and well to say what we think here. What's a forum for anyway? We already know not to fall into legalism and works regarding giving and support. We know the principles - that those who provide spiritual sustenance and spiritual fool deserve our support, that a shepherd has a right to the milk and wool of his flock.

It's good to share our agreement with the scripture, "God loves a cheerful giver." Love is about giving. What parent begrudged their baby their Gerber? Same for our ability to help and especially to be able to provide for those who look over us. I personally believe that this (as the Lord increases and provides) can be extended beyond formal church walls and that this too is pleasing to the Lord.

What I don't like is when wolves enter the flock and want to fleece the sheep. Putting guilt and using methods that are nothing less than extortion enrages me. One pastor spoke at length about "generational curses" and concluded that people whose families were stuck in trailer parks, getting food stamps, were victims of what he termed a "generational curse" and should give HIM a 10% cut of their food stamps to break the curse. Of course, he wanted his cut in dollars and cents, not food. And yes, he was sponsoring yet another building project. A multi-million dollar corporation begging and extorting through guilt and twisting the holy word (while calling itself a church of God) is NOT acting in a loving, gentle, Christlike manner.

Okay, rant over.

Let me try another approach, the idea that I'm trying to get across is a heart matter. Remember when you were young, very young and your mom took you over to Grandma's house? She was old, maybe smelly a little - was that mothballs? She grabbed your cheeks, saying, "Oh, my how you have grown," and your response, "But Grandma, you saw me only last week," was smothered by her kiss. Okay, maybe it wasn't exactly like that but you get the idea.

God does not want your duty kiss.

That's what I want to say. If your heart is in fact one of love and you are thankful and have been blessed and from your extra you want to give and share back? Yes.

Okay, let's look at this another way.
Anybody hear of the 2/3rds tithe law? Of course when we think about tithing and fractions the "1/10" rule comes up right away - but that was tithe law, part of the sacrificial offerings - the children of Levi didn't own land, that's why. God took all the firstborn when His children were in Egypt. Not just the firstborn of Egypt - but all of them. He delayed the taking of the firstborn of the children of Israel - and modified it but He took all. For the Children who the Angel of Death passed over - the delay and modification resulted in one tribe being taken into service - being set aside. Those of Levi would not have a portion of the land that was promised, would not be farmers, would not raise crops, nor herds.

But God took them none-the-less. This was the reason for the tithe offering, to give support and the ability to life to those who had been set aside for service to the Lord. I say this by way of reminding, putting us in mind of the first things. But what does this have to do with the 2/3rds rule of tithing?

Listen to what the the Lord has said:
"You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you."

"At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates."

"And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

[Deuteronomy 14:27-29 NKJV]
Click to expand...

Okay - get it now? "At the end of every third year..."
Also notice that God made provision for the stranger, and the fatherless and the widow, not just the Levites who were "in your gate".

We'll have to study more to figure out how we got from there to here and even more to know where we are going, what Good and Loving thing our Father in Heaven has in mind for us to please Him well. It is good to consider Him in all that we do, not just this but in all things.

Try to figure out how to spur each other toward love and kindness and doing those things that are right and pure and good in the sight of God - not just good in the sight of men.

~Sparrow
 
This is my view. The tithe (official tithe) was commanded to support the priests and the temple. Since there is no more temple and Levitical priesthood administering the temple, the tithe is no longer required.

I believe that all christians are commanded to share what they have with others, not dependent on a dollar amount or percentage.

I also believe too many pastors and preachers use the scriptures to basically extort money, labor and property out of church members and that is downright evil.

Jesus commanded the rich young ruler to sell ALL he had and to give the proceeds to the poor. Next time someone wants you to tithe to a particular church, consider whether they are giving your tithe along with other's to the poor, or to whoever has need.
 
I do not belong to a church. Not an earthly church that is. I do not give one-tenth (tithe) of whatever I own or earn. But I do give when I am extremely grateful for the blessing the Lord has given my family and myself. I give what the Holy Spirit is telling my heart.

It may sound like I only give when something good happens for me, and most of the time that is true. But there are times when the situation is bad, and I am reminded that there are others who are still worse off. Then I am even more grateful for even the little that I have.

I will not discuss what, when, or how much. God already knows.

"But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
(Matthew 6:3-4 NASB)
Click to expand...
 
l'Chante said:
Josh, I have always enjoyed your posts and I have learnt quite a bit from you since I joined CFnet. I wish I can get my faith to a point were it is as strong as yours. (And a couple of other posters)

My budget doesn't allow to tithe. I'm a single mom and the bulk of my salary goes towards my daughter's education and development. She goes to a special school and the fees will make any person's eyes water. Then there is the occupational therapy, speech therapy, swimming lessons to help with her muscle development, and the additional 'reading school' that she attends once a week. Over and above that it is the life insurance I took out to ensure that she won't miss out on any of her therapy if mommy passes away. I have to get to work and back and I need to pay the rent.
There really is no money at the end of the month to save for Christmas or birthday presents. Fortunately I have the option to encash some of my leave every year and I use those funds for birthday parties and Christmas presents.

If I had the ability I would give everything I had to the church, because our church's books are open for anyone who wants to take a look, and I can honestly say that all the money that the church receives goes to good use. I mean, even our minister gets paid less than I do. Far less as a matter of fact. His outlook is just that his wife has her own practice and they don't need him to earn a huge salary.

So in short, I don't have money to give, but I give my time and my shoulders and my prayers to my 'other family'. My real family sponsors the petrol to get there. :)
Click to expand...

Oh man, my heart goes out to you dear. I have a good Pastor friend, and his wife, who have a daughter in a similar situation (she is confined to a wheel chair). He also works a second job with my Dad as an engineer to support himself. But God sees our hearts and knows when we can and cannot give. 2 Corinthians 8:12-14 speaks of the matter of giving in proportion to what you have and of it not supposed to be a burden. As for my faith sometimes it is a desperate prayer to God for me to have such faith. When I said "May God enable me to do it faithfully" it was both a cry and a plea for God to carry me with it even when it gets hard. All the stress I think cumulated this morning and I was totally agitated until I went to Church and (mercifully) the chains just broke and fell away, and I realized that a large portion of my anxiety was due to my own worrying and sometimes even my imagination. I truly embraced God's peace this morning and I was so overjoyed at it.

I can't thank God enough for his mercy sometimes when I get myself into a mess I can't see or think my way out of. This seems to have been one of those situations, but I'm going to take it one step at a time and trust God to work in His wonderful, faithful, and mysterious ways all the way through. So this morning I was able to give my tithe truly gratefully and joyfully and I've felt God's blessing on me all day.

It's not my own faith that is strong but rather Christ's faithfulness in me, because He is in me, by which I am enabled to trust in God. I take no credit, only that I am glad to receive it and accept it wholeheartedly and do not want to turn away. Faith takes us through trials sometimes, but I have One who will stand with me all the way through.

May God bless you.

~Josh
 
Just as cyberjosh put it, I am currently going to college and still looking for a job so I rarely have money to give. So I try to make up for it in other ways. I help out in the Church when ever I can, I council for youth groups at that time of the year, and I just try to help out anyone who is in need of help that I am able to render.

This does not mean however that I will stop doing these things once I have graduated and start getting a steady paycheck. I just think you should give what you can, money, labor, advise, a listening ear, what ever you feel may help another person in some way.

But as far as how I would give money, I think it would be more along the lines of I give no matter what. If they spend it unwisely they are the ones who must answer to God for it. But if I feel a Church as a whole is not truly focused on God I will leave(money included) and find a place that does put God first.
 
As far as a church spending money unwisely, I have to say that there have been a couple of incidents over the years, when churches that I've belonged to spent money in a way I didn't see the need for, but I never once thought of not giving because of it. For instance, one church paid for a new sound system, when the roof needed repairs, I didn't get involved with that. I've always thought that decisions like that are up to the church leadership and I leave it at that. They are answerable to God in how they spend the money.

But, I will say, when we decided to leave the ELCA, part of went into our decision was that we couldn't support the ELCA financially when they were going so far against God's word. As with most denominations, part of the offerings went to denominational things. Not long after we left, the church we went to sent over $1000 to the denomination for a company that specialized in "growth ministries". This company was headed up by a lesbian couple, who were both recognized ministers in the ELCA. No. I don't want my money going for that. The answer was not to stop giving...it was to leave the church.
 
I believe that the actual 10% tithe is probably an OT concept that is not necessarily binding on the church. However I do believe, and stress to our church members, that any giving should be done cheerfully. God doesn't NEED your money. If He wants something done He will make it happen. Tithing is just our opportunitty to getting involved in what God is doing.

The 10% I think is just a benchmark that people use because people like to have hard numbers instead of just "give what you feel you should". In the book of Acts the church gave all the excess they had to the Apostles.
 
Tithing is a test for God as well. Mal. 4 (Does He exist) It also includes offerings that are freewill. The problem that arises today for real Christians is do we rob God by supporting the Rev. 17:1-5 ones? Yes, SURELY! Rev. 18:4 finds you PARTAKERS of all the documented evil that goes on there! Josh. 7:14 last part of the verse. That is why we see individul in house churchs jumping up evertwhere.

--Elijah
 
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