Tithing - The Truth Please

[BeforeThereWas]

I know. I know. ANOTHER thread about tithing. Well, I've run across a new twist to this pesky little subject for which I can't seem to get any straight answers. This can be an interesting discussion from both sides of this issue. Please remain civil, because this subject isn't worth getting all worked up.

First of all, it needs to be understood that I have no problem with a group of people supporting a building, its professional staffing and operating costs secondarily with their giving. There's no injunction in God's word against such an endeavor.

For those of you who believe in tithing, it's a biblical fact that the tithe was the first and primary portion of the farmer's and rancher's giving. All the offerings were secondary to the tithe since the tithe was an established portion of the increase.

QUESTIONS:

1) Where does God's word redefine the tithe as being, for example, money rather than a tenth of the crops and herds?

2) Where does God's word make a change from the Levites, who were the only one's authorized to collect the tithe, to ushers within organized religion?

3) Where does God's word allow for the tithe (or any of the primary portion of believer's giving) to be used for the upkeep and support of organized religion, its buildings and real estate, and operating costs rather than the Old and New Testament examples and commands of 100% of the tithe (or the primary portion of people's giving) being used to meet legitimate needs of people?

4) Where does God's word redefine wages exchanged for labor as a form of increase, such as what is seen from the fields and herds?

5) Where does God's word declare the buildings of organized religion today to be the replacement of the temple and its storehouse?

6) Where does God's word declare that the leadership within organized religion automatically qualifies as being leaders of biblical calibre, therefore qualified to receive of believer's giving for their own sustenance?

I would appreciate intelligent discussion on all this rather than knee-jerk reactionism and ad hominem (personal attacks) such as accusing those who don't tithe of being greedy. Such a rash, blind judgment serves only to distance the accuser from reality.

Thanks

 

[NRoof]

1) Where does God's word redefine the tithe as being, for example, money rather than a tenth of the crops and herds?

I know of nowhere that this gets redefined. If you were a farmer I would see no reason why you couldn't still give crops or live stock. That being said I am not a farmer and all I get from the fruits of my labor is cash. In todays market cash is just easier to deal with in is more flexible in meeting the needs of the people it is intended to help.

Acts 4
32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. 34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35 and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.
36 And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, 37 having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

Here we are shown that believers sold (for money) their possessions and gave the money to the apostles.

2) Where does God's word make a change from the Levities, who were the only one's authorized to collect the tithe, to ushers within organized religion?

The Levities were Jews and to the best of my knowledge were not in the gentile population which is where "ushers" would come from. This may not be the case in most places but the ushers in my chruch are elders of the chruch. So in that respect it is the elders collecting the money.

1 Corinthians 9
14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

This clearly shows that the elders (teachers) should make their living from the money provided by the body of believers they teach. This includes the Pastor (or head elder if you prefer).

3) Where does God's word allow for the tithe (or any of the primary portion of believer's giving) to be used for the upkeep and support of organized religion, its buildings and real estate, and operating costs rather than the Old and New Testament examples and commands of 100% of the tithe (or the primary portion of people's giving) being used to meet legitimate needs of people?

While I can point to no scripture condoning this or not I will ask you 1 question. We are told of temples and synagogues in both the OT and NT. Where did the funds come from to support them? I have read nowhere where God specifically say this shouldn't be done. I can point you to the scripture that tell of the construction and materials of the tabernacle. It is my understanding that the materials used were from the people and didn't magically appear from God.

4) Where does God's word redefine wages exchanged for labor as a form of increase, such as what is seen from the fields and herds?

See my response to question 1

5) Where does God's word declare the buildings of organized religion today to be the replacement of the temple and its storehouse?

I can't because there is none. In the same respect there is no place that I am aware of that says you can't. The building we typically call a church is nothing more than a gathering place for the Church (believers of Jesus Christ). In that respect it is no different than meeting in a field, house, or any other place.

6) Where does God's word declare that the leadership within organized religion automatically qualifies as being leaders of biblical calibre, therefore qualified to receive of believer's giving for their own sustenance?

Please refer back to question 2

 

[MPaul]

Your questions are most relevant. And, you could have added more, such as what churches which preach the tithe share it every third year with widows and orphans according to Scripture?? The tithe is not in the New Testament, but it serves as an example of one way of giving to God.

Here is my view on the matter--

http://www.loveofchrist.info/theology/ntgiving.html

Regards,

Paul

 

[James1979]

In the new testament, nowhere does it says that we should give a tithe of 10% of our income. I believe somewhere in the new testament it talks about give what you can to help but no where does it says give 10 percent of your income.

 

[NRoof]

In the new testament, nowhere does it says that we should give a tithe of 10% of our income. I believe somewhere in the new testament it talks about give what you can to help but no where does it says give 10 percent of your income.

Your right that nowhere does it say 10% in the NT. It does however say to give 100% if required by God.

Matthew 19
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Christians should give according to the NT guidlines:

1) Proportional to income
1 Corinthians 16:2
2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
2 Corinthians 8:12
12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.

2) Consistent
1 Corinthians 16:2

3) Sacrificial
Mark 12:43-44
43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.â€Â
2 Corinthians 8:2-3
2 that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded in the riches of their liberality. 3 For I bear witness that according to their ability, yes, and beyond their ability, they were freely willing,...

4) Cheerful
2 Corinthians 9:7
7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

The TRUTH is, the preaching of the tithe in today's churches represents, at best, a lack of faith on the part of the leadership, and at worst, an outright scam. These organizations and individual preachers conveniently ignore the many OT laws EXCEPT for the one which would tend to insure a greater income for themselves. It doesn't take much "street smarts" to figure this out, and if Christians would evaluate organized religion, objectively, and be as skeptical as they rightfully are when confronted with a secular scam which DOESN'T pose as spiritual in content, they would see it in a second.

Here is a 2 step plan which represents a con-artist's "dream scenario"...

1) Convince religious folks they owe God money

2) Tell them that you are the one who "represents God" and who actually RECEIVES this money (since, after all, they can't very well make out a check to "GOD")

There you have it - like taking candy from a baby :bday:

Wake up people!! :x

 

[kwag_myers]

QUESTIONS:

1) Where does God's word redefine the tithe as being, for example, money rather than a tenth of the crops and herds?

I'm not sure that you will find this in the Bible. Reason being that the Bible was written during a time when Isreal's economy was primarily agricultural. If you look at Jesus' parables, you'll see that most of them use an agricultural theme. However, in Genesis 28:22, we see that Jacob offers God a tenth of all that God has given him. So based on Jacob's example, there is no specific currency, rather the tithe comes from what God has given us.

2) Where does God's word make a change from the Levites, who were the only one's authorized to collect the tithe, to ushers within organized religion?

This one's a little easier. Hebrews 7:6 (NLT) "But Melchizedek, who was not even related to Levi, collected a tenth from Abraham. And Melchizedek placed a blessing upon Abraham, the one who had already received the promises of God." Also, Malachi 3:10 instructs us to bring our tithe into the storehouse so that there in meat in His house. So, is your church the House of God?

3) Where does God's word allow for the tithe (or any of the primary portion of believer's giving) to be used for the upkeep and support of organized religion, its buildings and real estate, and operating costs rather than the Old and New Testament examples and commands of 100% of the tithe (or the primary portion of people's giving) being used to meet legitimate needs of people?

Actually, the Tabernacle was built from the gifts and offerings of God's people. The purpose of the tithe was two-fold, to instill giving and to feed the Levites (who were professional priests with no other means of providing for their families). Again I refer to Malachi 3:10 and offer that one purpose of the tithe is to finacially support the House of God.

4) Where does God's word redefine wages exchanged for labor as a form of increase, such as what is seen from the fields and herds?

Consider Mark 12:41-44.

5) Where does God's word declare the buildings of organized religion today to be the replacement of the temple and its storehouse?

It doesn't. We are temples (1 Corithians 6:19), and we know that the Mosaic Temple is an example of how we are to worship (Hebrews 8:5). In Acts 6:4 we see that the apostles were given to prayer and the study of God's Word. Again, these were professionals supported by the giving of the church members. So, the early church supported its leadership by giving money. Yes?

6) Where does God's word declare that the leadership within organized religion automatically qualifies as being leaders of biblical calibre, therefore qualified to receive of believer's giving for their own sustenance?

Again, it doesn't. Leaders must fulfill the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3. There is no automatic qualification for leaders.

The TRUTH is, the preaching of the tithe in today's churches represents, at best, a lack of faith on the part of the leadership, and at worst, an outright scam. These organizations and individual preachers conveniently ignore the many OT laws EXCEPT for the one which would tend to insure a greater income for themselves. It doesn't take much "street smarts" to figure this out, and if Christians would evaluate organized religion, objectively, and be as skeptical as they rightfully are when confronted with a secular scam which DOESN'T pose as spiritual in content, they would see it in a second.

This is a good example of the spirit of antichrist at work. Anytime someone tries to get you to use your own understanding instead of having faith in God's Word, be skeptical of them. And if it's a scam, then why would God challenge us in Malachi 3:10, "...and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]."

 

[BradtheImpaler]

This is a good example of the spirit of antichrist at work. Anytime someone tries to get you to use your own understanding instead of having faith in God's Word, be skeptical of them. And if it's a scam, then why would God challenge us in Malachi 3:10, "...and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]."

Old friend "S.M.A.G." ("Same Miracles As Gospels") Myers - I see you are still "living the dream"? So if we give God money (accepted and used instead by those who have convinced the naive laity that they represent Him) God will give us a blessing so big we can't receive it? I suppose you've never seen anyone who gave so generously, according to this verse, that they couldn't afford to buy groceries the next month? I have. But then, I live in the "real world", a place you may be unfamiliar with?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

1) Where does God's word redefine the tithe as being, for example, money rather than a tenth of the crops and herds?

It doesn't.

2) Where does God's word make a change from the Levites, who were the only one's authorized to collect the tithe, to ushers within organized religion?

It doesn't, since the early church actually fellowshipped in houses there was no need to maintain a building or administration or to pay for pastor's salaries and cars etc. Also the early church gave their possessions away and pooled their assets.

[/quote]3) Where does God's word allow for the tithe (or any of the primary portion of believer's giving) to be used for the upkeep and support of organized religion, its buildings and real estate, and operating costs rather than the Old and New Testament examples and commands of 100% of the tithe (or the primary portion of people's giving) being used to meet legitimate needs of people?[/quote]

It doesn't

4) Where does God's word redefine wages exchanged for labor as a form of increase, such as what is seen from the fields and herds?

It doesn't

5) Where does God's word declare the buildings of organized religion today to be the replacement of the temple and its storehouse?

It doesn't

[/quote]6) Where does God's word declare that the leadership within organized religion automatically qualifies as being leaders of biblical calibre, therefore qualified to receive of believer's giving for their own sustenance?[/quote]

It doesn't

An interesting article for you to read.... http://www.loveofchrist.info/church/non ... ional.html

Enjoy!

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Here's another one that might be particularly interesting to you

http://www.awildernessvoice.com/law_church.html

 

[kwag_myers]

Old friend "S.M.A.G." ("Same Miracles As Gospels") Myers - I see you are still "living the dream"? So if we give God money (accepted and used instead by those who have convinced the naive laity that they represent Him) God will give us a blessing so big we can't receive it? I suppose you've never seen anyone who gave so generously, according to this verse, that they couldn't afford to buy groceries the next month? I have. But then, I live in the "real world", a place you may be unfamiliar with?

You didn't read my answer to question 6. I know very well that there are many false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing. This is way Paul gave Timothy very clear qualifications for leadership. It's not my fault that you didn't know 1 Timothy 3 and was led astray by one of these that both Paul and Jesus warned us about. When will you realize that it was your lack of knowledge of God's Word that caused you such great pain in your life? And even now you choose not to forgive, but to be angry at God for something you did to yourself.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

You didn't read my answer to question 6. I know very well that there are many false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing. This is way Paul gave Timothy very clear qualifications for leadership. It's not my fault that you didn't know 1 Timothy 3 and was led astray by one of these that both Paul and Jesus warned us about

I was never really deceived in the area of giving. When I was involved in Christian fellowships, I gave mainly to individuals I personally knew who were in need. As far as the tithe goes, I believe that those who preach the tithe, whether individuals or organizations, DO qualify as deceivers.

When will you realize that it was your lack of knowledge of God's Word that caused you such great pain in your life? And even now you choose not to forgive, but to be angry at God for something you did to yourself.

I personally have not suffered "great pain" in, or as, a result of my former evangelical days - I just think I was a bit naive in many respects. I SAW a lot of people taken advantage of, however, and found it distressing.

Also I cannot say I am "angry at God" because I no longer believe that most of what goes on in churches was instituted by God. I believe the modern church is 98% "man-made" and are basically businesses.

 

[cj]

An interesting article for you to read.... http://www.loveofchrist.info/church/non ... ional.html

Enjoy!

MM,

There is a lot more to a local expression of the one universal church than simple being an outward antithesis of the denominations.

To come out of the apostate institutions is just the beginning of being brought into the fullness of Christ in His expression on this earth today.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Abraham gave a tenth of what he, in a few verse later, declared he wanted nothing of.

Jacob made a deal with God, saying, "If you give me this and that, then I will give you a tenth."

God tells Jews to bring their tithe to a specific place of His choosing and then eat it with enjoyment.

God tells Jews that they have robbed Him of tithes, but who can really rob God of what is already His? What can God be "robbed" of?

Only the glory He deserves from His creation.

Under the New Covenant, as believers we belong to God, and thus all that we have in our possession also belongs to Him.

Therefore, we should treat it as such, being careful with it, and using it as we would something that belonged to someone else.


The true new testament way is giving as much as one can give, while being practical in the practical things of life, all while submitted to the Spirit in our spirit.

The true NT way is just Christ expressed,..... so rich that He could tell Pater to go and get a gold coin out of the mouth of a fish, or feed five thousand from five fish and three loaves of bread. Yet so poor as to be describe by God's prophet Isaiah, as being like,

- a tender plant,..... a root out of dry ground.

- He has no attracting form nor majesty that we should look upon Him, Nor beautiful appearance that we should desire Him.

- He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their faces, He was despised; and we did not esteem Him.

- Surely He has borne our sicknesses, And carried our sorrows; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God and afflicted.

- But He was wounded because of our transgressions; He was crushed because of our iniquities; The chastening for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we have been healed.

- We all like sheep have gone astray; Each of us has turned to his own way, And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

- He was oppressed, and it was He who was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter And like a sheep that is dumb before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.

- By oppression and by judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who among them had the thought That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my peopleto whom the stroke was due?

- And they assigned His grave with the wicked, But with a rich man in His death, Although He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

- But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. When He makes Himself an offering for sin, He will see a seed, He will extend His days, And the pleasure of Jehovah will prosper in His hand.

- He will see the fruit of the travail of His soul, And He will be satisfied; By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous, And He will bear their iniquities.

- Therefore I will divide to Him a portion with the Great, And He will divide the spoil with the Strong; Because He poured out His life unto death And was numbered with the transgressors, Yet He alone bore the sin of many And interceded for the transgressors.


Tell me, after reading Isaiah's description of Jesus, who among us would like to be as rich as He was/is, knowing that this richness comes with His poverty as well?


Our learning, like Paul, to remain/be content no matter the situation, is a sweet-smelling scent in God's nostrils.


Don't dwell on tithing as there is no perfection to be gained out of tithing; perfection is only gained in, and out of, Christ.


In love,
cj

 

[Diaconeo]

I'm not going to go into a lenghty discourse on this topic, but wanted to input my $.02 for whatever it's worth.

Tithing is a legal institution, commanded by God under the Law. The example of Melkizdech is before the Law and Abraham's giving a tithe is also pre-Law. The New Testament 'tithe' is not a legal institution, however, but and act of grace. We have been given to freely, thus we are to freely give. God commands us to give in both the Old and New Testaments, but one is out of legal obligation and the other is out of gracefull consideration, or love.

Churches that constanly preach the tithe, in my opinion, do not truly understand the Law of the tithe. The church that I currently attend does not collect a tithe or an offering for the matter, not in the sense of a traditional 'colleciton'. We have a box at the back of the sanctuary for anyone that cares to give.

I'm don't know what it is that some have against 'tithing' or why others insist that it's a sin not to 'tithe'. I don't really care either way. My objection is in the one side telling me that I'm sinning for not giving a legalistic 'tithe' as commanded under the Law, and the side screaming at me about the evil of modern churches in paying a 'professional' staff who labours in ministry full time. Both sides need to get off their soap boxes and start practicing Christian love and follow the commands of giving gracefully to those that labour in the ministry and also for the support of our brothers and sisters in that have need.

In Christ,
Matthew

 

[BeforeThereWas]

1) Where does God's word redefine the tithe as being, for example, money rather than a tenth of the crops and herds?

I am not a farmer and all I get from the fruits of my labor is cash. In todays market cash is just easier to deal with in is more flexible in meeting the needs of the people it is intended to help.

But they had cash back then too. Wage earners back then, just as we do now, exchanged their labor for money, which was not a source from which the Law required the people to tithe. Wages we earn are not a form of increase. Why so many people can't seem to understand this escapes me. So, my first question above remains unanswered because the expediency argument isn't a legitimate answer since currency existed then just as it does now. There's no record of Jesus paying tithes because He had no crops or herds that provided an increase from which He was required to tithe. People must assume that He paid tithes, but for a Man who had nowhere to lay His head at night, one must try and stretch the imagination in order to force that upon the texts of scripture.

Acts 4:32-36

Here we are shown that believers sold (for money) their possessions and gave the money to the apostles.

This is a misrepresentation of what's written in those verses. It was laid at the apostle's feet, not given to them personally for their own gain of earthly wealth. What was done with the money? Well, as with the rest of the NT, it's logical to conclude that it was used for the meeting of genuine, legitimate needs rather than the acquisition of real estate and "church" buildings, programs, lawn care, ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

The Levities were Jews and to the best of my knowledge were not in the gentile population which is where "ushers" would come from. This may not be the case in most places but the ushers in my chruch are elders of the chruch. So in that respect it is the elders collecting the money.

This was primarily directed at those who point at Malachi as their apologetic for the tithe allegedly being a requirement upon us today. Additionally, just because one is elected or hired as a leader within man-made, organized religion doesn't mean they automatically qualify as leaders with the Church.

1 Corinthians 9
14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

This clearly shows that the elders (teachers) should make their living from the money provided by the body of believers they teach. This includes the Pastor (or head elder if you prefer).

I don't recall the scriptures including "pastors" as being qualified to live off the people to whom they preach their aristotilian rhetoic. Again, just because someone is chosen as an elder within organized religion doesn't make him a true, legitimate elder of the calibre we see within scripture.

We are told of temples and synagogues in both the OT and NT. Where did the funds come from to support them?

Synegogues were non-existent at the time the Law was written. As a matter of fact, they were not known at all to the nation of Israel until after the second captivity. Also, there was only one temple in existence at any given time. The support of the temple was received from the people's offerings, which was secondary to the tithe. Offerings were received when there was need for repairs to the structure. The tithe was completely seperate because it was ONLY food, not money. If a farmer or rancher exchanged his tithe for something else, he had to add a penalty of something like 5%.

I can point you to the scripture that tell of the construction and materials of the tabernacle. It is my understanding that the materials used were from the people and didn't magically appear from God.

Very amusing. A closer scrutiny of the scriptures show us that the first temple's materials, wrongfully dubbed as "Solomon's Temple," were purchased from the taxes collected by, and tributes paid to, king David, the man whom God gave several wives. So, the first temple wasn't constructed from, nor was it maintained by, the tithe. There was more Law dedicated to the tithe than any other form of giving because of its provision for the Levites, priests, orphans, widows and strangers in the land.

The building we typically call a church is nothing more than a gathering place for the Church (believers of Jesus Christ). In that respect it is no different than meeting in a field, house, or any other place.

But there's a difference when we can observe the vast majority of the primary portion of believer's giving being consumed into those dead buildings rather than meeting real needs. How many billions have been poured into buildings just in the past 100 years? How many family's go without the basic necessities that we all take for granted because we pour the majority of our giving into those buildings? How many poor children go without adequate shoes and clothing, but they can walk barefoot by our many buildings, some of which are nothing more than architectural monstrosities, and most all the others costly enough to gobble up the majority of believer's primary giving. This is completely antithetical to both OT and NT examples and commands.

You never did answer as to how you figured that leaders within organized religion automatically qualify as leaders in accordance with Biblical guidelines within the Church.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Your questions are most relevant. And, you could have added more, such as what churches which preach the tithe share it every third year with widows and orphans according to Scripture?? The tithe is not in the New Testament, but it serves as an example of one way of giving to God.

Thank you, Paul. :D

It's indeed true that I could've added more, but I didn't want to belabor the point. The other avenues of this topic will more than likely come up in time.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The TRUTH is, the preaching of the tithe in today's churches represents, at best, a lack of faith on the part of the leadership, and at worst, an outright scam. These organizations and individual preachers conveniently ignore the many OT laws EXCEPT for the one which would tend to insure a greater income for themselves. It doesn't take much "street smarts" to figure this out, and if Christians would evaluate organized religion, objectively, and be as skeptical as they rightfully are when confronted with a secular scam which DOESN'T pose as spiritual in content, they would see it in a second.

I agree that there's been much deception and outright false teaching within organized religion concerning giving and other key doctrines that are demonstratably false. However, I've always been one who believes in the freedoms we all have. I have no problem with people banding together and supporting organized religion so long as that support is secondary to the meeting if needs.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Please understand that I'll keep it short and to the point rather than take the time to incorporate all the social niceties. My typing time is very limited today. Thanks.

the Bible was written during a time when Isreal's economy was primarily agricultural.

The fact remains that there was currency then as there is currency now. The Law of God laid no requirement upon the wage earner to tithe from his wages.

in Genesis 28:22, we see that Jacob offers God a tenth of all that God has given him. So based on Jacob's example, there is no specific currency, rather the tithe comes from what God has given us.

We're told at no point that Jacob ever went through with his promise. It's also a given fact that Jacob's offer to God was based upon no requirement, and it's not at all a good example to anyone in relation to giving when we observe all the strings Jacob attached to his offer of giving the Lord a tenth.

Hebrews 7:6 (NLT) "But Melchizedek, who was not even related to Levi, collected a tenth from Abraham.

I disagree. Melchizedek collected nothing. Abraham freely gave him a tenth of other people's property, based upon no requirement. There's no indication that Melchizedek was there to "collect" anything.

Malachi 3:10 instructs us to bring our tithe into the storehouse so that there in meat in His house. So, is your church the House of God?

I don't see anywhere that scripture declares organized religion's buildings to be "house of God," of that such things are a legitimate replacement of the storehouse within the OT temple. I have money in my cloths that says when hard times come, your "church" will be turning people away because of its lack of not being a TRUE storehouse like that within the temple, and also because of its disobedience to the Law it claims as its authority to collect tithes. Yes, organized religion's very big on pointing at the Law upon which Malachi was standing, but when it comes to DOING with the tithe exactly what that same Law demanded, well, they suddenly have no time to discuss that portion of the Law because it renders their practices to be anti-biblical and anti God. That Law strips away the facade that gives the appearance of piety, when in fact it's little more than avarice for organized religion to take from the poor so that it can errect its buildings and allow the givers to lavish their own giving right back upon themselves. Jesus said that what we do to the least of His brethren, we do unto Him. Look at how much organized religion has taken from the Lord, all the while purveying the idea that giving into its coffers is somehow synonymous with giving to God.

As for Malachi, well, he was addressing a people who were still under the obligations of the Law. We're no longer under such obligations, unless you can show me otherwise.

Actually, the Tabernacle was built from the gifts and offerings of God's people. The purpose of the tithe was two-fold, to instill giving and to feed the Levites (who were professional priests with no other means of providing for their families). Again I refer to Malachi 3:10 and offer that one purpose of the tithe is to finacially support the House of God.

We were talking about the tithe, not offerings. There's a big difference.

4) Where does God's word redefine wages exchanged for labor as a form of increase, such as what is seen from the fields and herds?

Consider Mark 12:41-44.

This fails to answer my question. Please elaborate what you see in those verses that offers an answer.

It doesn't. We are temples (1 Corithians 6:19),

Good answer. 8-)

In Acts 6:4 we see that the apostles were given to prayer and the study of God's Word.

As opposed to serving tables, yes. That doesn't mean that they were a special class of men like today's so-called "clergy" class.

Again, these were professionals supported by the giving of the church members. So, the early church supported its leadership by giving money. Yes?

I don't know if I would go so far as to assign the apostles to a class labeled "professionals". Also, one will search in vain to find where the local leadership ceased to be productive citizens of their respective communities, therefore sponging off the people. We do see in scripture itinerant church planters and evangelists receiving their living from the people to whom they ministered.

Leaders must fulfill the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3. There is no automatic qualification for leaders.

Then most don't qualify. Good point.

BTW

 

[NRoof]

Wages we earn are not a form of increase. Why so many people can't seem to understand this escapes me.

So enlighten me then

This is a misrepresentation of what's written in those verses. It was laid at the apostle's feet, not given to them personally for their own gain of earthly wealth.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on this. It was given to the apostles to do Gods work. This would include providing for the poor, widows and such. It's also not unreasonable to believe that some of the money was used to provide food and such for the apostles.
What I find truly interesting about your response to this is you most assuredly knew exactly what I was saying the first time but decided to be extremely legalistic about my words to try and prove your point.

I don't recall the scriptures including "pastors" as being qualified to live off the people to whom they preach their aristotilian rhetoic.

What does a pastor (head elder) do? Does he not spend his time preaching the Gospel.

Again, just because someone is chosen as an elder within organized religion doesn't make him a true, legitimate elder of the calibre we see within scripture.

So again enlighten me.

[quote:ec29c]
I can point you to the scripture that tell of the construction and materials of the tabernacle. It is my understanding that the materials used were from the people and didn't magically appear from God.

Very amusing. A closer scrutiny of the scriptures show us that the first temple's materials, wrongfully dubbed as "Solomon's Temple," were purchased from the taxes collected by, and tributes paid to, king David, the man whom God gave several wives. So, the first temple wasn't constructed from, nor was it maintained by, the tithe. There was more Law dedicated to the tithe than any other form of giving because of its provision for the Levites, priests, orphans, widows and strangers in the land.[/quote:ec29c]
I'm glad I amuse you but perhaps you should try reading before coming to a conclusion. Notice in my post I said tabernacle and not temple. You being so picky on words should have caught this but then again it wouldn't support your theology.
Let me give you a hand on this. Exodus 25

Now out of general curiosity I have a question for you.
Are you Henry?