To Preach or Not To Preach

[SlickPen50]

Deborah13... THe link doesn't work. Can you repost it?

 

[P31Woman]

Guess what. I kept looking I got a big slap in the face (I think from God). This is written by Frank Viola, blogging.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/themostignoredsin/

I was looking for David Norrington. When I clicked on the amazon site I found only one reivew and it was by the person who wrote the introduction to the book. I also saw the thing that says "Customers who purchased this book also purchased".....and the first book listed was by Leonard Sweet. That Frank guys books are also mentioned.

I did not read anything that would make me desire to purchase the book.

One thing I have come to spot quickly is the fact a lot of these so called "evangelical" authors and bloggers spend a great deal of their time bashing or telling flat out lies about the Church. Anytime that occurs I hear Jesus saying, you will know my followers by the way they love one another".

 

[SlickPen50]

So you're love for one another extends to Leonard Sweet does it? And Frank? Don't you think that it is judgmental to castigate two brothers because you don't agree? Where is the respect for the opinion of others?

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13... THe link doesn't work. Can you repost it?

Their server must be down because I just tried pulling up the site directly and there's a server not available. I think Reba may have looked at it.
Try it again later.

 

[Deborah13]

If someone does not like the NAR they may want to check out the republican politicians before they vote. I remember the video of members praying over Sarah Palin, they were involved in Rick Perry's pray rally, and I believe Michelle Buchman has knowledged them as well.

Just tried the link it is working again.

 

[SlickPen50]

Deborah13, Frank Viola and most associated with him could careless about Sarah Palin, Rick Perry and the rest... Our understanding transcends all that political stuff.

 

[P31Woman]

So you're love for one another extends to Leonard Sweet does it? And Frank? Don't you think that it is judgmental to castigate two brothers because you don't agree? Where is the respect for the opinion of others?

I have not typed ONE WORD about either of those men that was in any way negative or judgemental.

If however, they do however spend a great deal of their time BASHING the Church or telling flat out lies about us, I will know they are not one of us because of Jesus told us what to look for.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13, Frank Viola and most associated with him could careless about Sarah Palin, Rick Perry and the rest... Our understanding transcends all that political stuff.

No I didn't say He was, I said the NAR is. Frankly some of the people that were listed on that site as being NAR are people I like at least what I have seen of their ministry. The Brownville Revival from what I saw was not all bad. Nathan Morris was there and Delia Knox is now out of the wheel chair she was in bondage to for 25 yrs. I doubt satan wanted that, God got the glory. Now when I see her sing or on the Christian woman's show she walks not sings from a wheel chair. Praise the Lord and I really don't care what anyone thinks about me or it. The woman, who has been a gospel singer for many years, got HEALED.

 

[reba]

Is Mumford the devil and incapable of saying something that is true? I quote Joseph Stalin and Hegel, does that make me and Atheist Communist?

I have no idea of what you are saying? I can not make sense of your post? Please try again

 

[SlickPen50]

Reba, Did I understand that you're not pleased with Mumford being quoted?

 

[reba]

ever heard the term "embrace the bulldozer?" That was one of Mumford's lessons that hit home for me...

I have not been blessed to met Mumford but I have listened to many hours .... I was honored to meet, very briefly, Brian Baily and Ralph Mahoney. Outstanding men of God . Those 3 were among a bunch of guys ,who blessed those who would hear..in what I would call old fashion Camp meetings and the World Map org.

 

[P31Woman]

Farouk, What does the author show us about the word "preach" translated from the Greek word kerussein? Another translator translates this Greek word as to teach... But the entire book isn't so much about preaching perse. It also deals with the centrality of "the sermon" and "the pastor" to modern religious club today, but the absence of such in the New Testament that shows us God's plan...

God's plan is for a plurality of leaders, which can include a pastor. A (notice the singular article) pastor cannot be found in the New Testament leading a church. In Ephesians we see Paul, Epaphroditus teaching and encouraging (not leading or worse controlling).

In the modern religious club "the pastor" is the leader. And he declares the message of the bible to passive listeners. Yet in the church of Paul's teaching, "the sermon" was more of a homely and brief encouragement or dealing with a subject. The one-anothering and maturing of everyone's gifts was encouraged and augmented. Today, there is no room for anybody to grow in a gifting or calling such as the New Testament teaches.

Ephesians 4:11-16 depicts something I HAVE NEVER OBSERVED IN 38 years of Sunday going to meeting "the sermon" and "the preacher" the religious club...
11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

It talks about some as prophets, some as this, some as that some as still another thing... But this is all inclusive, meaning the actual, practical priesthood of EVERY believer: not just special people who have gone to school... Secondly, it uses the word "ALL" in this flow again showing total inclusion, not just a special class that is matured. It then makes reference to "the head" Christ who guides and brings to unity....

This doesn't sound like any church I have been to in the west. It sound very much like ones I visited in Romania and Japan. Here in the west, a pastor, should just as well be "pope" or dictator. A "church" is "his church" and there is no ministry besides what he declares (or the denomination declares and he carries out their bidding) what will be done, what ministries will be embraced...

What calls itself church is dying off. The small to medium church are going out of existence, the mega church are getting big (and aging) and this organization is less impactful and significant culturally than ever before. George Barna and others have been documenting what calls itself churches fall for years.

And part of it relates to the dependence on dead preaching, to the lowest common denominator in order to support an infrastructure that God never intended in the first place.

Here is a video that helps put all this in a succinct package: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSFYw5rPdyY

According to Frank Viola the average house 2 house church only last 6 to 24 months.

I would have to ask myself, why did these people first leave the organized Church and now why are they leaving the organic/home/simple church?

Do they want to be entertained? are they really saved? is it about pride and an unwillingness to submit to authority, not wanting to be held accountable, mental illness, desiring some mystical experience,?

Why can't these people connect with Chruch?

Why has this movement been forced to looked to the organized Church for help?

 

[SlickPen50]

P31W, I don't know where you get your information form but it is wrong again... Forget any connection between Frank Viola and House2House, they are two unrelated and independent entities that converge SOMETIMES.

I know several house fellowships that have been in function in excess of 10 years, some as long as 25....

And your aver, "Do they want to be entertained? are they really saved? is it about pride and an unwillingness to submit to authority, not wanting to be held accountable, mental illness, desiring some mystical experience," is totally screwed up... It assumes a hole bunch of pejorative presumptions, you can't possibly support in objective facts...

Show me where we are to submit to a covering in the New Testament? Your other details could just as well be addressed to the organized crowd with a lot of supportive facts that can be illustrated over and over...

You've got no idea about simple church or house fellowships other than what organized church leaders have told you to think. That is obvious!

Why can't you accept simple churches as legitimate church? After all that is what the early church was and did.

 

[P31Woman]

http://sojourner.typepad.com/house_church_blog/2006/09/frank_viola_ans.html

"Simple Chruch Journal
aka HouseChruch Blog

A way of life
Simple Chruch
House Chruch
Organic Chruch

Frank Viola Answers Questions

I have not heard Frank Viola before so I was intrigued to attend one of his workshops at the Denver House Church Conference. He has an intense personality (not unlike his books) and certainly brings to the table many, many years of simple church / house church experience.

He used this workshop to answer questions that he has been most frequently asked over the years. My personal note is that I am serving as more of a reporter here and will reserve my own comments for another time.'



'Re-Thinking Leadership

'5. What is the average life span of a house church? Frank says that most churches survive from 6 months to two years. He points back to the seasons just mentioned. Unless churches can navigate through the inevitable conflics and crises, they will self-destruct at a fairly early stage. He again asserts that they might do well to bring in outside help to navigate through the difficulties.'

edit added:

This concerns me

7. What advice can you give us about children? Frank did not have specific advice on this issue. He was concerned about children being cared for. He was also equally concerned about the difficulties of being in community with parents whose commitment to their children supercedes their commitment to the church community. In other words, children need to be neither neglected nor worshipped.

 

[reba]

How about we come to understand different folks need/want different ( Bible believing) churches... God gave us unique personalities, we don't all fit the same box. Some want/need the structure some don't. Seems to me God has provided for our different needs differently.

In the simplest form my sister wants a time to go to a church with structure to dress up all that outside stuff. That she likes to 'dress up' does not lessen her love /commitment to the Lord.. Give me a Bible study where blue jeans are the code of the day. This is superficial I know, although I believe it makes the point...


Not every field ready for harvest looks like the other.... Some furrows are straight some curve around the hills, some need a complete irrigation system some wait for rain.. We can be about the work of 'farming' where God has placed us... Jesus taught in Temple and on the Mount

 

[Deborah13]

by Reba Jesus taught in Temple and on the Mount

Good post, Reba.

Why are we so critical of others? If they are teaching the true gospel of Christ does it really matter where it is taught?

I don't think anyone needs to worry that the organized church will disappear, too many people want and need it.

 

[SlickPen50]

I agree with Reba's post. I am not against institutional church as much as I am about the idea that it is the only legitimate way, when in fact much decries that notion. I don't think folks needing or wanting it as an acceptable form is the way we should consider its practicalness or its ability to do what Christ called us to do. I think each fellowship should be considered by itself as to value or lack thereof...

A concern I have with institutional church arises from my experience from Independent fellowships to Christian Missionary Alliance, Evangelical Free and Harvest churches, those I've had the most experience with... Sure there are many good things about these, but God doesn't care about the "good" men try and do... He cares about obedience and the perpetuation of His will and purposes. And in this context, very little of God's will and purposes have been accomplished in the fellowships I have been a part of or party to... And neither have their supporting organizations. This is why I have left the building... And in research for writing, I find the same things in other places, other than my direct experience, which leads me to think that the problems aren't me, aren't just where I have been; they are both real and pandemic.

This doesn't mean that people are bad for their associations to these places. But the irritating thing to me is that they dismiss my experience because they can't see what I do, or they discount what I see for any of various reasons.

Deborah13, for me its not a thing of being critical just to be critical, I can understand frustration or questioning that. For me, its a thing of seeing something, which I've experienced and know many who have similar experiences regardless the association, which continue to be denied and downplayed.

You all may find this hard to believe, being that it seems I favor House Church, that I've taken some of the most notable proponents of "House Church" to task on a number of things.

Some would dismiss this as a "critical spirit" and "being argumentative," which could be true, but it is just as possible that these generalizations are being used to maintain control and status quo.

Ultimately, we need to be led of God, not theology and not a denominational ideal. Because for FACT, the closer we really get to God, the closer we will have to get to one another. And the things that divide us must be jettisoned for this to happen. This is something the institutional church in all its variations excludes and bitterly prevents (I am not talking Ecumenism here). Everybody wants to maintain their associations, divisions and what it all is supposed to mean. VERY FEW are interested in figuring out what divides that is worthless and pitching it.

 

[P31Woman]

Anytime we talk about God we are discussing theology. Theology and doctrine are extremely important. God tells us if we are to worship Him we are to do it in Spirit and Truth....that requires sound doctrine. Sound Theology and doctrine come from the inerrant Word of God. Doctine divides. That's a good thing.

I unite myself with all other Christians concerning the essential doctrines.


This thread is not simply about preferences.

Pastor John Samson, "Doctrine divides! It divides truth from error. It divides the true teacher from the false teacher; the spirit of truth from the spirit of error; and the true Christ from the Anti-Christ."

Amen Preach on Brother!

 

[P31Woman]

P31W, I don't know where you get your information form but it is wrong again... Forget any connection between Frank Viola and House2House, they are two unrelated and independent entities that converge SOMETIMES.

I know several house fellowships that have been in function in excess of 10 years, some as long as 25....

And your aver, "Do they want to be entertained? are they really saved? is it about pride and an unwillingness to submit to authority, not wanting to be held accountable, mental illness, desiring some mystical experience," is totally screwed up... It assumes a hole bunch of pejorative presumptions, you can't possibly support in objective facts...

Show me where we are to submit to a covering in the New Testament? Your other details could just as well be addressed to the organized crowd with a lot of supportive facts that can be illustrated over and over...

You've got no idea about simple church or house fellowships other than what organized church leaders have told you to think. That is obvious!

Why can't you accept simple churches as legitimate church? After all that is what the early church was and did.

The organized Chruch leaders do not tell me what to think. Again this thead and your post are NOT about mere preference.

 

[farouk]

The whole point of people in pastoral/elder situations is that they should be 'fellow helpers to the truth' (3 John 8), so the person needs to develop his or her own thinking from Scripture, rather than be told what to think.