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Your unsaved deceased loved ones are not eternally lost unless they want to be

I am very careful. You are correct its an "ETERNAL SIN" to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but you missed THAT requires there must be "less than eternal sins" that can be forgiven.

[#R]
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men…in the age to come.”

All who knowingly oppose Christ are opposed to Christ and can't be forgiven: All knowingly against Jesus who is God the Son are also committing ETERNAL SIN, just as those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit. But those who blaspheme the "Son of Man" see only Jesus' human flesh, and therefore can be forgiven:



Sins committed in ignorance can be forgiven (Heb. 5:2; 9:7; 1 Tim. 1:13; Lev. 5:18; Ez. 45:20; Lk. 12:48). That is why blasphemy against the Son of Man whose Incarnate Deity is veiled by Human Flesh can be forgiven. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven as His Deity was fully revealed in the Divine Truth and miracles only God can do.


Ignorance of Christ determines if one belongs to the “many” whose sins are covered by His eternal sacrifice (Heb. 9:26-28). The timing of this forgiveness begins at Christ’s Second Coming when He appears to those eagerly waiting for Him for salvation which is when “the age to come” (ἐν τῷ μέλλοντι Mt. 12:32; Eph. 1:21) begins:


At Christ’s second coming those “in the grave” who died in ignorance of Christ are forgiven “every sin and blasphemy” and if they obey the gospel of Christ preached “also” to them they will be “judged according to men in the flesh” covered by the sacrifice of Christ for sins and rise in the resurrection to life when Christ appears “a second time…for salvation” (John 5:28-29; 1 Pet. 4:5-6; Heb. 9:27-28; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 2 Thess. 2:1; 1 Cor. 15:23, 51-57).

This excludes all who committed eternal sins like blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mt. 12:32), stumbling one of God’s children (Mk. 9:42-48), accepting the Mark of the Beast or worshipping him (Rev. 14:9-11).

So you missed Christ's point entirely. Its a contrast between sins done in ignorance, and willful sin.


Mark 16:16 isn't pertinent to sin done in ignorance
.

I agree baptism isn't required for salvation, baptism was how people proved they truely believed. Baptism was a public confession Jesus is LORD.

When Jews were baptized in Jesus' Name they were cast out of the synagogue and persecuted, sometime to death. So true belief was indicated by baptism. If they weren't baptized they weren't true believers. True believers (sent by Christ to evangelize) also proved their identity by doing miraculous signs:

12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:12-20 NKJ)

Those who claimed to be apostles sent by Christ manifested signs proving they were "true believers". This prophecy was fulfilled by Christ's disciples in the 1st century.

But its not relevant to Eternal sin, or sins done ignorantly.

You weren't careful when interpreting this scripture. You confused them.
You said: “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men…in the age to come.”

Alfred----- you are literally adding something at the end that it DOES NOT SAY. Read the verses again carefully:


31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)"

It says NOTHING about sins being forgiven in the AGE TO COME. It is speaking of the present time when it speaks of "all sins" that may be forgiven men. He then states that the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven NOW, or even in the age to come. He is stating it is UNFORGIVABLE----both NOW and FOREVER.

You are once again twisting scripture to back your doctrine-----rather than submitting to True doctrine from the Bible. Don't you understand? Many have tried to state that there is forgiveness after death----the Catholic Church has "purgatory" where one can "work off" their sins to gain entrance into Heaven. But the Bible clearly teaches that we either receive the truth in THIS LIFE, or reject it and receive damnation as is stated in Mark 16:16.
 
You said: “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men…in the age to come.”

Alfred----- you are literally adding something at the end that it DOES NOT SAY. Read the verses again carefully:


31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)"

It says NOTHING about sins being forgiven in the AGE TO COME. It is speaking of the present time when it speaks of "all sins" that may be forgiven men. He then states that the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven NOW, or even in the age to come. He is stating it is UNFORGIVABLE----both NOW and FOREVER.

You are once again twisting scripture to back your doctrine-----rather than submitting to True doctrine from the Bible. Don't you understand? Many have tried to state that there is forgiveness after death----the Catholic Church has "purgatory" where one can "work off" their sins to gain entrance into Heaven. But the Bible clearly teaches that we either receive the truth in THIS LIFE, or reject it and receive damnation as is stated in Mark 16:16.
I don't agree. I think its common sense reading of the text. If I said "Everything costs money, and if you don't pay you are stealing. That is true either in this Administration, or the Administration to come."

Theft exists in both administrations.

So Christ's statement. Every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven (if people repent), either in this age or the age to come which includes the after life.

Only sins done in ignorance of God and His requirements will recieve such mercy. Sins willfully done must be paid for, God will not permit the wicked go unpunished.

Ignorance springs from self-delusion and slavery to sin. It does not follow those who vaguely know the gospel really have thought about it, and in full knowledge rejected it. For example, most Americans are raised to believe in Evolution, that its "fact" and religion "fantasy". So many good people have died believing the lies of this world.

Should God condemn them? Would a human judge condemn the ignorant to such a horrible fate due to the indoctrination they received orchastrated by Satan?

No.

God is Just and Merciful. He goes the extra mile to save sinners who die unsaved. He purges whatever imprisons them, fully informs them of the truth, and then with a restored free will they can choose life.

Everyone righteous will do that. Only the wicked reject it, being unable to live in God's light and Holiness, in truth and love.

Something is clearly wrong when the above is considered "unorthodox", while the conclusion God will eternally torment those who died unsaved (those He personally didn't elect to be saved), is "orthodox."
 
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I don't agree. I think its common sense reading of the text. If I said "Everything costs money, and if you don't pay you are stealing. That is true either in this Administration, or the Administration to come."

Theft exists in both administrations.

So Christ's statement. Every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven (if people repent), either in this age or the age to come which includes the after life.

Only sins done in ignorance of God and His requirements will recieve such mercy. Sins willfully done must be paid for, God will not permit the wicked go unpunished.

Ignorance springs from self-delusion and slavery to sin. It does not follow those who vaguely know the gospel really have thought about it, and in full knowledge rejected it. For example, most Americans are raised to believe in Evolution, that its "fact" and religion "fantasy". So many good people have died believing the lies of this world.

Should God condemn them? Would a human judge condemn the ignorant to such a horrible fate due to the indoctrination they received orchastrated by Satan?

No.

God is Just and Merciful. He goes the extra mile to save sinners who die unsaved. He purges whatever imprisons them, fully informs them of the truth, and then with a restored free will they can choose life.

Everyone righteous will do that. Only the wicked reject it, being unable to live in God's light and Holiness, in truth and love.

Something is clearly wrong when the above is considered "unorthodox", while the conclusion God will eternally torment those who died unsaved (those He personally didn't elect to be saved), is "orthodox."
Alfred---- I guess we have to agree to disagree. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". (John 3:18)

This verse states that he that believes is not condemned. But he that doesn't believe is "condemned already" because he has not believed on the Son of God. I also have to ask you Alfred----when you read the Epistles and see the urgency of Paul to preach to people----do you ever hear him saying---"well, if you don't accept my message now, you better when you get that second chance after death"? No---there is an urgency---"TODAY is the day of salvation". The message is to believe and repent NOW. If people believe they have a second chance they'll say "well, I'll take my chances. If I'm going to get a second chance I'll receive the Gospel then". I just can't agree with your message and really do not see it as Biblical.
 
Alfred---- I guess we have to agree to disagree. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". (John 3:18)

This verse states that he that believes is not condemned. But he that doesn't believe is "condemned already" because he has not believed on the Son of God. I also have to ask you Alfred----when you read the Epistles and see the urgency of Paul to preach to people----do you ever hear him saying---"well, if you don't accept my message now, you better when you get that second chance after death"? No---there is an urgency---"TODAY is the day of salvation". The message is to believe and repent NOW. If people believe they have a second chance they'll say "well, I'll take my chances. If I'm going to get a second chance I'll receive the Gospel then". I just can't agree with your message and really do not see it as Biblical.
Scripture is always 100% true. The conclusions of those who don't think logically are not.

To "believe not" requires one "knows what to disbelieve".

Therefore, the Gosepl of Christ must be preached to those who died in ignorance of Christ, so God can judge them:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Why do Christians disbelieve Peter? Its elementary logic the Gospel is preached to the dead, so God can judge them for believing or not believing.

No one is condemned until they choose to not believe. That is the truth of this verse you ignore:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". (John 3:18)

Those who don't know what the name of the only begotten Son of God is, aren't saved or condemned.

That was true for you and me, and the dead.

Belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), therefore it logically follows those who died ignorant of Christ must be informed after they die once, so there can be a "Judgment":

24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.

(Heb. 9:24-10:1 RPTE)
 
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Scripture is always 100% true. The conclusions of those who don't think logically are not.

To "believe not" requires one "knows what to disbelieve".

Therefore, the Gosepl of Christ must be preached to those who died in ignorance of Christ, so God can judge them:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Why do Christians disbelieve Peter? Its elementary logic the Gospel is preached to the dead, so God can judge them for believing or not believing.

No one is condemned until they choose to not believe. That is the truth of this verse you ignore:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". (John 3:18)

Those who don't know what the name of the only begotten Son of God is, aren't saved or condemned.

That was true for you and me, and the dead.

Belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), therefore it logically follows those who died ignorant of Christ must be informed after they die once, so there can be a "Judgment":

24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.

(Heb. 9:24-10:1 RPTE)
Alfred----- Apparently then I am not understanding your position. I thought you were teaching that those who "have heard the Gospel" and rejected it had a SECOND CHANCE after death to repent. If you are teaching that those who "have not heard" have a chance after death then I now understand where you are coming from. I have to disagree with you though---that there are no second chances after death. We do not know how Jesus will judge those in distant tribes throughout the world who may have never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel. They will not be judged as those who did have the opportunity and rejected it are judged. Please clarify your position. If you do truly believe that someone can HEAR AND REJECT the Gospel in this life, and then be offered a "second chance" in the next life I have to totally disagree.
 
Alfred----- Apparently then I am not understanding your position. I thought you were teaching that those who "have heard the Gospel" and rejected it had a SECOND CHANCE after death to repent. If you are teaching that those who "have not heard" have a chance after death then I now understand where you are coming from. I have to disagree with you though---that there are no second chances after death. We do not know how Jesus will judge those in distant tribes throughout the world who may have never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel. They will not be judged as those who did have the opportunity and rejected it are judged. Please clarify your position. If you do truly believe that someone can HEAR AND REJECT the Gospel in this life, and then be offered a "second chance" in the next life I have to totally disagree.
Not hearing includes those who ignorantly reject the gospel they heard. In other words, someone convinced evolution is true is deceived by satan. When they reject the gospel its because they were ignorant. God can extend mercy to the ignorant and repeat the gospel to them in Hades, just as He did to these mockers who didn't realize they would meet God after death and "give an account" for their mocking. That's why the gospel is ALSO preached to dead:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:4-6 NKJ)
Same with the "spirits in prison" who formerly were disobedient to Noah's preaching, but responded to Christ's preaching with the "answer of a good conscience to God":

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(1 Pet. 3:18-21 NKJ)

If Christ preached doom to the damned (why do that?), then why did their response remind Peter of how we responded to Christ's preaching, and were saved, as symbolized by baptism?


But there is no second chance for those who in full knowledge and free will reject Christ. No second chance for those guilty of eternal sin. Satan, demons, Beast, False prophet, all who receive the mark of the beast are tormented in fire forever.
 
Not hearing includes those who ignorantly reject the gospel they heard. In other words, someone convinced evolution is true is deceived by satan. When they reject the gospel its because they were ignorant. God can extend mercy to the ignorant and repeat the gospel to them in Hades, just as He did to these mockers who didn't realize they would meet God after death and "give an account" for their mocking. That's why the gospel is ALSO preached to dead:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:4-6 NKJ)
Same with the "spirits in prison" who formerly were disobedient to Noah's preaching, but responded to Christ's preaching with the "answer of a good conscience to God":

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(1 Pet. 3:18-21 NKJ)

If Christ preached doom to the damned (why do that?), then why did their response remind Peter of how we responded to Christ's preaching, and were saved, as symbolized by baptism?


But there is no second chance for those who in full knowledge and free will reject Christ. No second chance for those guilty of eternal sin. Satan, demons, Beast, False prophet, all who receive the mark of the beast are tormented in fire forever.
Thank you for clarifying your teaching. I still don't agree with you totally. The Bible says that the whole world is blinded by Satan. So being "ignorant" and believing in evolution really is not an excuse. Romans says there is "none righteous, no not one". Read Romans 1-3 if you get the chance. It speaks of those who are "without excuse"---which is basically ALL of us. But thanks for taking the time to clarify----that helps a lot.
 
Thank you for clarifying your teaching. I still don't agree with you totally. The Bible says that the whole world is blinded by Satan. So being "ignorant" and believing in evolution really is not an excuse. Romans says there is "none righteous, no not one". Read Romans 1-3 if you get the chance. It speaks of those who are "without excuse"---which is basically ALL of us. But thanks for taking the time to clarify----that helps a lot.
I agree none of us are righteous, but disagree about sins committed in ignorance, they can be forgiven (Heb. 5:2; 9:7; 1 Tim. 1:13; Lev. 5:18; Ez. 45:20; Lk. 12:48).

One thing to consider as you evaluate what I said. Its better (Scriptural) than alternative theories many propose, like the view there are other ways apart from Jesus to be saved, like other religion. The pope recently suggested that and the Vatican went into overdrive to contradict him. But evangelicals also advance ways to save "good people" apart from Jesus.

But the Bible is clear, Salvation is Exclusive to Christ: “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (Jn. 14:6 NKJ). “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12 NKJ).

That requires the gospel is preached to everyone born "since the foundation of the world", otherwise we must believe in limited atonement and that God Sovereignly rejects billions of people, because He chose to.

That doesn't fit the God of the Bible.

So my proposal not only fits scripture, it was believed by the Jews in the Days of Christ. I didn't invent it. I discovered the view as I researched early church doctrine.

I'll repeat what Clement of Alexandria (150–215), a Christian teacher who spent his twilight years with his friend Alexander when he became bishop of Jerusalem, had this to say about souls in Hades:

So I think it is demonstrated that God (being good) and the Lord (being powerful) both save with a righteousness and equality that extends to all who turn to God, whether here or elsewhere. For it is not here alone that the active power of God is present. Rather, it is everywhere and is always at work.… For it is not right that those persons [who died before Christ] should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after His coming should have the advantage of the divine righteousness. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, EE Eastern), 2.491. Dead, Intermediate State of The. (1998). In D. W. Bercot (Ed.), A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. 192). Hendrickson Publishers.

A plausible argument can be made "purgatory" appeared in the Catholic Church (its a bit different in the Orthodox church), as a corruption of the early church view of Hades as a place where God can redeem everyone righteous, and still condemn the wicked. I believe "not one soul will end up lost, that didn't deserve it and choose it".
 
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The Pharisees also accused Jesus of colluding with - or being - you-know-who.

And you only gave one example.
What the Rabbi's believed is "context", not scripture. I gave multiple scriptures throughout this thread. They should inform your opinion, nothing else.
 
The Pharisees also accused Jesus of colluding with - or being - you-know-who.

And you only gave one example.
PS: Jesus valued Rabbinic teaching, He condemned their failure to practice it themselves. Its easy to get the idea the Pharisees were enemies of Christ. In fact, they were among those who followed Him and made up a sizable portion of the early church.

If Christ didn't value Rabbinic Teaching He could never describe Rabbinic teaching as "treasure":

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

If Christ thought everything the scribes and Pharissees (=School of Hillel, Gamaliel, Paul the apostle) was crap, He never would have commanded His followers pay them heed:

2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. (Matt. 23:2-3 NKJ)



The possiblity ideas from the School of Hillel which trained Paul, found its way in Paul's writings is 100%:

3 "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today. (Acts 22:3 NKJ)

The Pharisees even defended Paul against the Sadducees. They wouldn't have done that if they thought Paul rejected all their beliefs:

9 Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, "We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God." (Acts 23:9 NKJ)

Pharisees were a sizable part of the early church:

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.
4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.
5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts 15:3-5 NKJ)

Because they are everywhere, the Gospels and NT mention them a lot. But don't get the wrong idea, just because they often did things that were rebuked by Christ and the apostles, lots of them were faithful Christians in the early church. Paul never says "everything I learned as a Pharisee was crap". If it was he would have said so.


I'd love to discuss scripture with you on these things, not Rabbinic Teaching. I cited dozens of scriptures in this thread in support of the OP.

Why not read what I claim the scripture says, and if you disagree...show how I got it wrong. That could be interesting.
 
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If Christ didn't value Rabbinic Teaching He could never describe Rabbinic teaching as "treasure":

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)
Pretty sure this covers Biblical Teaching of all stripes. Not just Rabinic.
 
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