Your unsaved deceased loved ones are not eternally lost unless they want to be

[Fish153]

Explore the biblical proof salvation beyond this life is possible through the timeless sacrifice of Christ for the sins of the Cosmos. "God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death" (Ps. 68:20) says scripture.

There is enough scripture proof to make a compelling argument salvation through Jesus Christ extends beyond our earthly existence. God dwells in Eternity (Isa. 57:15) and "the lamb slain from the foundation of the Cosmos" (Rev. 13:8) can save the many who obey His voice whether in the grave or not (John 5:24-29; 1 Pet. 4:5-6; Heb. 9:23-28)

Dozens of scriptures support postmortem evangelism, offering hope and clarity for those who wonder about the fate of their loved ones who have not accepted Christ in their lifetime.

Whether you are a theologian, a believer, or someone seeking answers to life’s ultimate questions, my book will challenge your understanding and expand your perspective on God’s boundless grace and mercy.

Amazon.com

I have challenged everyone in this forum to prove me wrong. Try again.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27)

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead". (Luke 16: 22-31)

 

[Alfred Persson]

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27)

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead". (Luke 16: 22-31)

Heb. 9:27 says a judgment happens after one dies, and evidently some pass this judgment because then:
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 RPTE)

The words "eternal torment" don't appear in the context and both John 5:29 and Rev. 20:13 say the Rich Man will leave Hades to be judged, and if he passes this judgment "rise to the resurrection of life":

28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:28-29 RPTE)

Only those NOT found in the Book of life are cast into the lake of fire:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and hell gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:13-15 RPTE)

Why contradict Scripture to teach something not found in it?

Is Catholic/Protestant eschatology that pleasing you would suffer God's disapproval for contradicting Christ?

 

[Fish153]

Heb. 9:27 says a judgment happens after one dies, and evidently some pass this judgment because then:
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 RPTE)

The words "eternal torment" don't appear in the context and both John 5:29 and Rev. 20:13 say the Rich Man will leave Hades to be judged, and if he passes this judgment "rise to the resurrection of life":

28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:28-29 RPTE)

Only those NOT found in the Book of life are cast into the lake of fire:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and hell gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:13-15 RPTE)

Why contradict Scripture to teach something not found in it?

Is Catholic/Protestant eschatology that pleasing you would suffer God's disapproval for contradicting Christ?

"Heb. 9:27 says a judgment happens after one dies, and evidently some pass this judgment because then:
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 RPTE)"

Those "eagerly waiting for him" are alive on the earth. He will appear a second time and those who are alive he will take alive into Heaven with him, while others raise from the dead first. Paul mentions the Judgment several times as a "warning" to those who are alive to live good lives. If one could be "saved" after they die why "warn" them about how they live in THIS life? There is no repentance after death. The Bible is very clear that we live once and then there is Judgment. We will either appear before Christ because we have received the good message of salvation---or we will stand before the Great White Throne and be judged for having rejected the way of salvation.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

**please note: he that believes not is "condemned already"--one needs to believe and repent in this life to be saved and have eternal life**

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall NOT see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:16)

 

[Alfred Persson]

"Heb. 9:27 says a judgment happens after one dies, and evidently some pass this judgment because then:
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 RPTE)"

Those "eagerly waiting for him" are alive on the earth. He will appear a second time and those who are alive he will take alive into Heaven with him, while others raise from the dead first. Paul mentions the Judgment several times as a "warning" to those who are alive to live good lives. If one could be "saved" after they die why "warn" them about how they live in THIS life? There is no repentance after death. The Bible is very clear that we live once and then there is Judgment. We will either appear before Christ because we have received the good message of salvation---or we will stand before the Great White Throne and be judged for having rejected the way of salvation.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

**please note: he that believes not is "condemned already"--one needs to believe and repent in this life to be saved and have eternal life**

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall NOT see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:16)

"It is appointed for men to be alive on earth and then the judgment?"

That isn't what Paul said. He is speaking about those who died and then are judged. Some among the "judged" after they died, are eagerly waiting for Christ's second coming, for salvation from death.

We Christians are already saved in this life, we don't come under any kind of judment that determines if we live:

24 "Truly, truly, I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (Jn. 5:24 RPTE)

Look at it this way, Christ said ALL IN THE GRAVE will hear His voice.

Is anyone in Hell whose body isn't in the grave? No. So Christ said all in hell will hear His voice AND those who done good will rise to the resurrection of life:

28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:28-29 RPTE)

These are the ones eagerly waiting for their salvation, at Christ's second coming:

15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:15-18 RPTE)

 

[Fish153]

"It is appointed for men to be alive on earth and then the judgment?"

That isn't what Paul said. He is speaking about those who died and then are judged. Some among the "judged" after they died, are eagerly waiting for Christ's second coming, for salvation from death.

We Christians are already saved in this life, we don't come under any kind of judment that determines if we live:

24 "Truly, truly, I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (Jn. 5:24 RPTE)

Look at it this way, Christ said ALL IN THE GRAVE will hear His voice.

Is anyone in Hell whose body isn't in the grave? No. So Christ said all in hell will hear His voice AND those who done good will rise to the resurrection of life:

28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:28-29 RPTE)

These are the ones eagerly waiting for their salvation, at Christ's second coming:

15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:15-18 RPTE)

I'm trying to understand you. Are you saying that there are people who die unsaved and then can be saved after death? I thought this was what you were saying. If not, I apologize. it is not Biblical to believe there is a "second chance" after death. Let me know if that is what you are teaching.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I'm trying to understand you. Are you saying that there are people who die unsaved and then can be saved after death? I thought this was what you were saying. If not, I apologize. it is not Biblical to believe there is a "second chance" after death. Let me know if that is what you are teaching.

Not Biblical? Look at all these verses that say souls can be redeemed from Sheol/Hades (LXX) after death:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]

Mouse click the hastag #Letter to see the verse discussed. Mouse click the Bible reference to read it for yourself.

Don't apologize. It took me years before I realized the Rich Man isn't being eternally tormented. All of us "get indoctrinated" and its hard to overcome that, and let the Bible truth shine.

And it does shine. God goes the extra mile to save everyone who isn't wicked, who haven't committed eternal sins like blaspheming the Holy Spirit or taking the mark of the Beast. People who died deceived by this world, but who aren't wicked, get a chance to repent and believe. That's why Christ appeared once at the end of the ages, so all born since the foundation of the world, could be saved:

23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:23-28 RPTE)

Many dead are judged to be covered by Christ's sacrifice for sin after they die, and these eagerly wait for His Second coming for salvation from Hades.

 

[electedbyHim]

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

This text presents a number of difficulties that have given rise to different interpretations. Let us begin with the first word.

a. “For.” Some interpreters link this word to the immediately preceding sentence (v. 5).16 However, the conjunction for, together with the following words this is the reason, explains not the clause that Christ will judge the living and the dead. Rather, in view of the broader context, the conjunction relates to Christ’s judgment on the adversaries and his justification of the believers.17 To be exact, the word for points forward to the “so that” clause in the last half of verse 6, where Peter mentions judgment and life.

b. “The gospel was preached.” By means of the impersonal verb in the Greek (“it was preached”), Peter specifies that he is not interested in the content of the proclamation or even in the persons who preach the gospel. He is interested only in the fact that preaching occurred. Observe that Peter writes the past tense of the verb to preach to show that he is speaking of an event that happened in the past. The choice of the past tense is significant because of the next phrase.

c. “Even to those who are now dead.” What do these words mean? In the course of time, scholars have provided at least four interpretations for this part of the verse.18

First, the word dead refers to Christ’s descent into hell to preach the gospel to all the dead who either had never heard or had rejected the Good News while they were living. However, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus teaches that an unbridgeable chasm has been fixed between heaven and hell (Luke 16:26; also see Heb. 9:27). Scripture nowhere teaches that Christ makes salvation available to a sinner after death. Biblical teaching, therefore, contradicts this interpretation.

Next, the dead are the believers of the Old Testament era, who, because they did not live during New Testament times, had to wait for Christ to proclaim the gospel to them. Proponents of this view see similarities between 3:19 and 4:6. We demur. The word choice in both verses differs considerably, even more in the Greek than in translation. For example, Christ “made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits” (3:19, NEB), and “the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead” (4:6). Moreover, Scripture indicates that the souls of the Old Testament believers are in heaven (see, e.g., Heb. 11:5, 16, 40; 12:23).

Third, about a.d. 200, Clement of Alexandria suggested that the text refers to the preaching of the gospel to those who are spiritually dead (compare Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13). This interpretation has given Clement many followers, among whom are Augustine in the early church and Martin Luther during the Reformation. The objection to this exposition comes from the preceding context (v. 5). If Clement’s explanation is right, the interpreter would have to prove that Peter uses the word dead in two different senses (i.e., to refer to physical and spiritual states) in verses 5 and 6. Peter, however, gives no indication that he intends a shift in meaning. Also, the tense of the verb preach is in the past (“was preached”), not in the present. For this explanation, in fact, the interpreter needs the present tense to indicate the continual preaching of the gospel to those who are spiritually dead. The wording of the text, however, gives no support to this interpretation.

Last, contemporary interpreters say that the dead are those Christians who heard and believed the gospel during their lifetime, but afterward died. The translators of the New International Version have inserted the temporal adverb now to help the reader to understand the words to those who are now dead. In this interpretation, the expression dead, referring to persons who have died physically, has the same meaning in both verses 5 and 6. Although the objection can be raised that Peter should have used a word like “those who have fallen asleep” (1 Thess. 4:14), we observe that a writer has the freedom to choose his own vocabulary. Of the four interpretations, the last one is the least objectionable and answers most objections. Understandably, numerous commentators have adopted this last and current explanation of the text.19

d. “So that they might be judged.” Peter gives the reader a perfectly balanced sentence of (Semitic) parallelism:

so that ​	but
they might be judged ​	live
according to men ​	according to God
in regard to ​	in regard to
the body ​	the spirit

Let us begin with the words so that. This expression introduces a parallel construction that has led commentators to favor one of two interpretations.

First, the wording so that reveals that the persons who are to be judged had the gospel preached to them when they were living on earth. The believers knew that although they had accepted the gospel of salvation in faith, they had to face death. From the Scriptures they learned that God had pronounced judgment upon all sinners. But as believers they also knew that they were set free from sin and would inherit eternal life. This includes all those who died in faith, and is a theologically sound interpretation.

Second, in light of the context, we do well to consider the unjust suffering Christians had to endure in the middle of the first century. Christians suffered at the hands of their adversaries; they were slandered and persecuted.

Now mark the difference in the tenses of the verbs Peter uses. He says that believers “might be judged,” which is a one-time act, but may “live,” which denotes time that lasts eternally. Moreover, Peter adds a contrast by specifying that those who are dead are judged “according to men.”20 What does he mean? The phrase refers to those Christian martyrs who endured intense suffering at the hand of their adversaries. In the sight of their opponents, the believers received their just judgment by suffering physically.

Peter speaks words of encouragement to the readers of his epistle and tells them that they must view life through God’s eyes. Peter contrasts the phrase according to men with the phrase according to God. The adversaries of Christian martyrs were of the opinion that by punishing the believers, perhaps even to the point of death, they were defeating the Christians. But they did not know that in God’s sight believers continue to live in the spirit. Fellow believers observing the injustice which these martyrs experienced, however, ought not to be discouraged. In the sight of God, believers continue to live in the spirit, because “the spirit returns to God who gave it” (Eccles. 12:7) and therefore is immortal.

The Christian knows that on the basis of his faith in Christ “[he] will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24). In a book dating from the intertestamental period, a striking parallel occurs. It describes the lot of righteous men who suffer at the hands of the ungodly:

For though in the sight of men they were punished,

their hope is full of immortality.

Having been disciplined a little,

they will receive great good,

because God tested them and found them

worthy of himself. [Wis. 3:4–5, RSV]

In conclusion, the second interpretation of verse 6b has merit because it fits the general context of this epistle in which Peter at length discusses suffering for the sake of Christ.

Greek Words, Phrases, and Constructions in 4:6​

ἵνα κριθῶσι—the particle introduces first the aorist passive subjunctive of κρίνω (I judge) and then the present active subjunctive of ζάω (I live). The contrast is particularly vivid because of the use of μέν … δέ. C. F. D. Moule paraphrases the sentence in these words: “That they might be judged in the eyes of men [as men reckon judgment] physically, but might live as God lives spiritually.”21

F. Practical Principles[1]

​

14 Eschatological references occur in 1:7; 2:12; 4:5, 13, 17; 5:4, 10.

15 See also Luke 16:2; Acts 19:40; Rom. 14:12; Heb. 13:17.

16 Consult, e.g., Charles Bigg, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistles of St. Peter and St. Jude., International Critical Commentary series (1901; Edinburgh: Clark, 1961), p. 170.

17 Consult William Joseph Dalton, Christ’s Proclamation to the Spirits: A Study of 1 Peter 3:18–4:6, Analecta Biblica 23 (Rome: Pontifical Biblical Institute, 1964), p. 266.

18 See Dalton, Christ’s Proclamation to the Spirits, pp. 42–54, for details.

NEB New English Bible

19 For instance, R. C. H. Lenski, The Interpretation of the Epistles of St. Peter, St. John, and St. Jude (Columbus: Wartburg, 1945), p. 186; Selwyn, The First Epistle of St. Peter, p. 214; Dalton, Christ’s Proclamation to the Spirits, p. 267; Edmond Hiebert, D. First Peter: An Expositional Commentary. (Chicago: Moody, 1984), pp. 250–51.

20 Selwyn suggests the paraphrase in men’s estimation. The First Epistle of St. Peter, p. 215.

RSV Revised Standard Version

21 Moule, Idiom-Book, p. 59.

[1] Simon J. Kistemaker and William Hendriksen, Exposition of the Epistles of Peter and the Epistle of Jude, vol. 16, New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1953–2001), 162–166.

 

[electedbyHim]

Not Biblical? Look at all these verses that say souls can be redeemed from Sheol/Hades (LXX) after death:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]

Mouse click the hastag #Letter to see the verse discussed. Mouse click the Bible reference to read it for yourself.

Don't apologize. It took me years before I realized the Rich Man isn't being eternally tormented. All of us "get indoctrinated" and its hard to overcome that, and let the Bible truth shine.

And it does shine. God goes the extra mile to save everyone who isn't wicked, who haven't committed eternal sins like blaspheming the Holy Spirit or taking the mark of the Beast. People who died deceived by this world, but who aren't wicked, get a chance to repent and believe. That's why Christ appeared once at the end of the ages, so all born since the foundation of the world, could be saved:

23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:23-28 RPTE)

Many dead are judged to be covered by Christ's sacrifice for sin after they die, and these eagerly wait for His Second coming for salvation from Hades.

God goes the extra mile to save everyone who isn't wicked

All humans are wicked.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

 

[electedbyHim]

Elijah is coming, he will restore all things, bring the hearts of believers back to God, to their family, and OBEDIENCE to the Holy Scripture. Even that is rejected by many today. Incredible:

Jesus answered them, "Elijah indeed comes first, and will restore all things, (Matt. 17:11 RPTE)

In context

Mat 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
Mat 17:11 And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things;
Mat 17:12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

 

[Alfred Persson]

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

c. “Even to those who are now dead.” What do these words mean? In the course of time, scholars have provided at least four interpretations for this part of the verse.18

First, the word dead refers to Christ’s descent into hell to preach the gospel to all the dead who either had never heard or had rejected the Good News while they were living. However, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus teaches that an unbridgeable chasm has been fixed between heaven and hell (Luke 16:26; also see Heb. 9:27). Scripture nowhere teaches that Christ makes salvation available to a sinner after death. Biblical teaching, therefore, contradicts this interpretation.

For now I comment on "c" above, the rest later when I have time:

Sound hermeneutic requires "The dead" in 4:6 refers to the "dead" in verse 5, who God will judge. God judges everyone, the "living and the dead", therefore it cannot be referring to living but "spiritually dead" people. AND it is "for THIS reason (their mocking, they died unsaved) the gospel is preached ALSO to "the dead", so they can reconsider and "live according to God" while disembodied:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)


As for the "unbridgable chasm", its temporary and vanishes on Judgment Day when Hades is emptied of all its dead, including the Rich man:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:13 NKJ)

Christ reveals some of these "in the graves" (=Hades) rise to "the resurrection to life"

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Confirming Hebrews 9:27-28 is applying the sacrifice of Christ to everyone born since the foundation of the world, is Paul's specific rejection of the sacrifices in the law as a means for OT saints to be saved:

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
NKJ Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. (Heb. 9:26-10:5 NKJ)

 

[electedbyHim]

For now I comment on "c" above, the rest later when I have time:

Sound hermeneutic requires "The dead" in 4:6 refers to the "dead" in verse 5, who God will judge. God judges everyone, the "living and the dead", therefore it cannot be referring to living but "spiritually dead" people. AND it is "for THIS reason (their mocking, they died unsaved) the gospel is preached ALSO to "the dead", so they can reconsider and "live according to God" while disembodied:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)


As for the "unbridgable chasm", its temporary and vanishes on Judgment Day when Hades is emptied of all its dead, including the Rich man:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:13 NKJ)

Christ reveals some of these "in the graves" (=Hades) rise to "the resurrection to life"

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Confirming Hebrews 9:27-28 is applying the sacrifice of Christ to everyone born since the foundation of the world, is Paul's specific rejection of the sacrifices in the law as a means for OT saints to be saved:

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
NKJ Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. (Heb. 9:26-10:5 NKJ)

So your right and sound Theologians are wrong.

Only those who do not know their Bible might believe you.

I will stick with sound doctrine and men who God put in place to exegete His word.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So your right and sound Theologians are wrong.

Only those who do not know their Bible might believe you.

I will stick with sound doctrine and men who God put in place to exegete His word.

Grace and peace to you.

The indoctrination we Protestants get at conversion is powerful. For years I believed as you. But eventually scripture defeated it. The "sound theologians" you refer to, are clearly wrong. Jesus said everyone in the grave (=hell) will hear His voice, and some of them come out to the "resurrection of life":

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

The Book of life is opened when the dead are raised from Hades. It would remain shut if no one raised from hades rose to "the resurrection of life":

12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and hell gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:12-13 RPTE)

John says ONLY those not written in the Book of life suffer the "second death", that means some WERE written in it:

If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:15 RPTE)

The Reformers were former Catholic priests. They didn't discard everything that is wrong. Catholic misconceptions about Hades survived the reformation and are taught today by your "sound theologians" because they labor under the same indoctrination I once did.

If you allow Scripture to inform your opinion, you must discard their "proto-Catholic" eschatology.

Some accuse me of "tickling ears". But do you see anyone here who thanks me for tickling ears? No, you do not. Instead I get the same response Christ did when He taught against the prevailing opinion, in favor of Scripture truth.

 

[Alfred Persson]

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

This text presents a number of difficulties that have given rise to different interpretations. Let us begin with the first word.

a. “For.” Some interpreters link this word to the immediately preceding sentence (v. 5).16 However, the conjunction for, together with the following words this is the reason, explains not the clause that Christ will judge the living and the dead. Rather, in view of the broader context, the conjunction relates to Christ’s judgment on the adversaries and his justification of the believers.17 To be exact, the word for points forward to the “so that” clause in the last half of verse 6, where Peter mentions judgment and life.

As I have time I will treat your reply in full, point by point:


"Some interpreters" implies the opposite of reality, MOST scholars link it with v. 5 including:

Henry Alford. The Greek New Testament. Vol. 4. 1857

Charles Biggs. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistles of St. Peter and Jude. The International Critical Commentary. Edinburgh: Clark, 1901.

Ernest Best. 1 Peter. The New Century Bible Commentary. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1971.

J.N.D. Kelly. The Epistles of Peter and Jude. Black’s New Testament Commentary. Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1969.

Simon J. Kistemaker. Exposition of the Epistles of Peter and of the Epistle of Jude. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987.

E.G. Selwyn. The First Epistle of Peter. New York: Macmillan, 1946.

Wayne Grudem. 1 Peter. Tyndale New Testament Commentaries. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1988.


QUESTION—What relationship is indicated by γάρ ‘for’?
It indicates the grounds for the statement about judgment in 4:5 [Alf, ICC, NCBC]. It refers to the judgment mentioned in 4:5 [BNTC, NTC, Sel, TNTC].…

Alf Alford, Henry. The Greek New Testament. Vol. 4. 1857. Reprint with revisions by E. F. Harrison. Chicago: Moody Press, 1968.

ICC Bigg, Charles. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistles of St. Peter and Jude. The International Critical Commentary. Edinburgh: Clark, 1901.

NCBC Best, Ernest. 1 Peter. The New Century Bible Commentary. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1971.

BNTC Kelly, J. N. D. The Epistles of Peter and Jude. Black’s New Testament Commentary. Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1969.

NTC Kistemaker, Simon J. Exposition of the Epistles of Peter and of the Epistle of Jude. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987.

Sel Selwyn, E. G. The First Epistle of Peter. New York: Macmillan, 1946.

TNTC Grudem, Wayne. 1 Peter. Tyndale New Testament Commentaries. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1988.

-Abernathy, D. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of 1 Peter (2nd ed., p. 150). SIL International.

 

[Alfred Persson]

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

This text presents a number of difficulties that have given rise to different interpretations. Let us begin with the first word.
....

b. “The gospel was preached.” By means of the impersonal verb in the Greek (“it was preached”), Peter specifies that he is not interested in the content of the proclamation or even in the persons who preach the gospel. He is interested only in the fact that preaching occurred. Observe that Peter writes the past tense of the verb to preach to show that he is speaking of an event that happened in the past. The choice of the past tense is significant because of the next phrase.

Incorrect on both statements:

Peter identified its the Gospel that was preached which clearly interests Peter because he specified WHAT was preached.

Its past tense because its being preached ALSO to those "who are now dead" (NIV, NLT, CSB, GWN, NET, NIRV etc.), who mocked it when alive. In other words, it was preached twice, once when they were alive, and ALSO when they were dead:

3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles-- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:3-6 NKJ)

The Exegetical Summary of scholarship on this reads as follows. I bolded what agrees with me in whole or in part. #1 contradicts those who believe the gospel while alive do not die (John 5:24):

QUESTION—Who are the dead that are being preached to?
1. The dead are those who heard and believed during their lifetime, and then died [BNTC, IVP, NIBC, NIC, NTC, Sel, TNTC, WBC; NIV].
2. The dead are not only those who heard the gospel of Christ during their lifetime, but also the faithful of the OT period who believed God’s promises during their lifetime, and then died [WBC].
3. They are those who heard the gospel after their death [Alf, EGT, ICC, NCBC, TG, TH; NJB, NRSV, TEV, TNT]. The dead are all the dead in Hades [ICC]. They are all the dead in Sheol to whom Christ preached [TG]. They are all who died before Christ came [TH]. The dead are all who had died [Alf, EGT]; Christ preached in Hades, and the apostles did the same after him [EGT]. The dead are all who never heard the gospel while alive [NCBC].


BNTC Kelly, J. N. D. The Epistles of Peter and Jude. Black’s New Testament Commentary. Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1969.

IVP Marshall, I. Howard. 1 Peter. The IVP New Testament Commentary Series. Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1991.

NIBC Hillyer, Norman. 1 and 2 Peter, Jude. New International Biblical Commentary. Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1992.

NIC Davids, Peter H. The First Epistle of Peter. The New International Commentary on the New Testament. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1990.

NTC Kistemaker, Simon J. Exposition of the Epistles of Peter and of the Epistle of Jude. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987.

Sel Selwyn, E. G. The First Epistle of Peter. New York: Macmillan, 1946.

TNTC Grudem, Wayne. 1 Peter. Tyndale New Testament Commentaries. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1988.

WBC Michaels, J. Ramsey. 1 Peter. Word Biblical Commentary, vol. 49. Waco. Texas: Word, 1988.

NIV The Holy Bible, New International Version. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984.

WBC Michaels, J. Ramsey. 1 Peter. Word Biblical Commentary, vol. 49. Waco. Texas: Word, 1988.

Alf Alford, Henry. The Greek New Testament. Vol. 4. 1857. Reprint with revisions by E. F. Harrison. Chicago: Moody Press, 1968.

EGT Hart, J. H. A. “The First Epistle General of Peter.” In The Expositor’s Greek Testament, n.d. Reprint. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1980.

ICC Bigg, Charles. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistles of St. Peter and Jude. The International Critical Commentary. Edinburgh: Clark, 1901.

NCBC Best, Ernest. 1 Peter. The New Century Bible Commentary. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1971.

TG Bratcher, Robert G. A Translator’s Guide to the Letters from James, Peter, and Jude. New York: United Bible Societies, 1984.

TH Arichea, Daniel C., and Eugene A. Nida. A Translator’s Handbook on the First Letter From Peter. New York: United Bible Societies, 1980.

NJB The New Jerusalem Bible. Garden City, New York: Doubleday, 1985.

NRSV The Holy Bible, New Revised Standard Version. New York: Oxford University Press, 1989.

TEV Good News Bible, Today’s English Version. 2d ed. New York: American Bible Society, 1992.

TNT The Translator’s New Testament. London: British and Foreign Bible Society, 1973.

ICC Bigg, Charles. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistles of St. Peter and Jude. The International Critical Commentary. Edinburgh: Clark, 1901.

TG Bratcher, Robert G. A Translator’s Guide to the Letters from James, Peter, and Jude. New York: United Bible Societies, 1984.

TH Arichea, Daniel C., and Eugene A. Nida. A Translator’s Handbook on the First Letter From Peter. New York: United Bible Societies, 1980.

Alf Alford, Henry. The Greek New Testament. Vol. 4. 1857. Reprint with revisions by E. F. Harrison. Chicago: Moody Press, 1968.

EGT Hart, J. H. A. “The First Epistle General of Peter.” In The Expositor’s Greek Testament, n.d. Reprint. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1980.

EGT Hart, J. H. A. “The First Epistle General of Peter.” In The Expositor’s Greek Testament, n.d. Reprint. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1980.

NCBC Best, Ernest. 1 Peter. The New Century Bible Commentary. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1971.

Abernathy, D. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of 1 Peter (2nd ed., p. 150). SIL International.

A parallel to these mockers who again hear the gospel after they die in disobedience, is found in Romans regarding the Jews who died "enemies of the gospel":

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
(Rom. 11:30-32 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

This text presents a number of difficulties that have given rise to different interpretations. Let us begin with the first word.

...
c. “Even to those who are now dead.” What do these words mean? In the course of time, scholars have provided at least four interpretations for this part of the verse.18

First, the word dead refers to Christ’s descent into hell to preach the gospel to all the dead who either had never heard or had rejected the Good News while they were living. However, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus teaches that an unbridgeable chasm has been fixed between heaven and hell (Luke 16:26; also see Heb. 9:27). Scripture nowhere teaches that Christ makes salvation available to a sinner after death. Biblical teaching, therefore, contradicts this interpretation.

Next, the dead are the believers of the Old Testament era, who, because they did not live during New Testament times, had to wait for Christ to proclaim the gospel to them. Proponents of this view see similarities between 3:19 and 4:6. We demur. The word choice in both verses differs considerably, even more in the Greek than in translation. For example, Christ “made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits” (3:19, NEB), and “the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead” (4:6). Moreover, Scripture indicates that the souls of the Old Testament believers are in heaven (see, e.g., Heb. 11:5, 16, 40; 12:23).

Third, about a.d. 200, Clement of Alexandria suggested that the text refers to the preaching of the gospel to those who are spiritually dead (compare Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13). This interpretation has given Clement many followers, among whom are Augustine in the early church and Martin Luther during the Reformation. The objection to this exposition comes from the preceding context (v. 5). If Clement’s explanation is right, the interpreter would have to prove that Peter uses the word dead in two different senses (i.e., to refer to physical and spiritual states) in verses 5 and 6. Peter, however, gives no indication that he intends a shift in meaning. Also, the tense of the verb preach is in the past (“was preached”), not in the present. For this explanation, in fact, the interpreter needs the present tense to indicate the continual preaching of the gospel to those who are spiritually dead. The wording of the text, however, gives no support to this interpretation.

Last, contemporary interpreters say that the dead are those Christians who heard and believed the gospel during their lifetime, but afterward died. The translators of the New International Version have inserted the temporal adverb now to help the reader to understand the words to those who are now dead. In this interpretation, the expression dead, referring to persons who have died physically, has the same meaning in both verses 5 and 6. Although the objection can be raised that Peter should have used a word like “those who have fallen asleep” (1 Thess. 4:14), we observe that a writer has the freedom to choose his own vocabulary. Of the four interpretations, the last one is the least objectionable and answers most objections. Understandably, numerous commentators have adopted this last and current explanation of the text.19

d. “So that they might be judged.” Peter gives the reader a perfectly balanced sentence of (Semitic) parallelism:

so that​	but
they might be judged​	live
according to men​	according to God
in regard to​	in regard to
the body​	the spirit

Let us begin with the words so that. This expression introduces a parallel construction that has led commentators to favor one of two interpretations.

First, the wording so that reveals that the persons who are to be judged had the gospel preached to them when they were living on earth. The believers knew that although they had accepted the gospel of salvation in faith, they had to face death. From the Scriptures they learned that God had pronounced judgment upon all sinners. But as believers they also knew that they were set free from sin and would inherit eternal life. This includes all those who died in faith, and is a theologically sound interpretation.

Second, in light of the context, we do well to consider the unjust suffering Christians had to endure in the middle of the first century. Christians suffered at the hands of their adversaries; they were slandered and persecuted.

Now mark the difference in the tenses of the verbs Peter uses. He says that believers “might be judged,” which is a one-time act, but may “live,” which denotes time that lasts eternally. Moreover, Peter adds a contrast by specifying that those who are dead are judged “according to men.”20 What does he mean? The phrase refers to those Christian martyrs who endured intense suffering at the hand of their adversaries. In the sight of their opponents, the believers received their just judgment by suffering physically.

Peter speaks words of encouragement to the readers of his epistle and tells them that they must view life through God’s eyes. Peter contrasts the phrase according to men with the phrase according to God. The adversaries of Christian martyrs were of the opinion that by punishing the believers, perhaps even to the point of death, they were defeating the Christians. But they did not know that in God’s sight believers continue to live in the spirit. Fellow believers observing the injustice which these martyrs experienced, however, ought not to be discouraged. In the sight of God, believers continue to live in the spirit, because “the spirit returns to God who gave it” (Eccles. 12:7) and therefore is immortal.

The gospel is preached twice, to the living and ALSO to the dead, all who die once and then are judged, since the foundation of the world. Christian's are exempted from that process, they never die and therefore go into the presence of the Lord immediately after physical death.

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn. 11:26 NKJ)

8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 NKJ)


Unbelievers are spiritually dead, and go to hades upon physical death. The gospel is preached ALSO to them (since the foundation of the world), it is appointed they die once and they are judged if the Timeless sacrifice of Christ covers their sins Heb. 9:26-28).

So they are judged worthy of death according to men in the flesh, but if they pass the judgment (repent and obey the Gospel preached), they live according to God "in the Spirit" (protected from the torments of Hades) just as Christ's human soul was protected in the "sphere of the Spirit" when He preached to the spirits in prison:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (1 Pet. 3:18-19 NKJ)

The "spirits in prison" were they hybrid human-angel children of Genesis 6:2, 4 known as the "men of renown". That's why Christ made a special trip to them, they were segregated from both human and angel dead". Their "prison" is their own section in Hades. Its not the Abyss where demon spirits are imprisoned.

Humans who died unsaved are either in Hades "resting waiting for the resurrection" or in "TORMENTS waiting for the resurrection"; dead angels or demons, spirits are in the Abyss (Rev. 9:1-11). Christ didn't preach to them, they are eternally lost.

All the human day who obey the Gospel preached to them when dead, rise in the First Resurrection with the rapture of the church:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18 NKJ)

Wickedness will not go unpunished. This is why its far better to believe the gospel of Christ now, when we are saved by grace.

 

[Fish153]

Not Biblical? Look at all these verses that say souls can be redeemed from Sheol/Hades (LXX) after death:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]

Mouse click the hastag #Letter to see the verse discussed. Mouse click the Bible reference to read it for yourself.

Don't apologize. It took me years before I realized the Rich Man isn't being eternally tormented. All of us "get indoctrinated" and its hard to overcome that, and let the Bible truth shine.

And it does shine. God goes the extra mile to save everyone who isn't wicked, who haven't committed eternal sins like blaspheming the Holy Spirit or taking the mark of the Beast. People who died deceived by this world, but who aren't wicked, get a chance to repent and believe. That's why Christ appeared once at the end of the ages, so all born since the foundation of the world, could be saved:

23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:23-28 RPTE)

Many dead are judged to be covered by Christ's sacrifice for sin after they die, and these eagerly wait for His Second coming for salvation from Hades.

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thess. 2:10-12)

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day". (2 Thess. 1: 7-10)

Alfred---- These two verses make it quite CLEAR that there are no SECOND CHANCES. It says that those who "received not the love of the truth" are not saved and will be DAMNED. It says when Christ returns he will take vengeance on those who "obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ---and they will be punished with "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.."

The Bible simply does not teach that those who reject the Gospel in this life will have a second chance to repent in the next life. You shared a lot of verses---but NONE of them teach what you are teaching. I have to ask: if one is able to believe and accept that there is a Heaven where people go for all of eternity-----why cannot we believe it is very possible that there is a Hell where people go for all of eternity? Jesus taught there was a hell. In fact, he taught more about hell than anyone else in the Bible.

 

[Alfred Persson]

...

Alfred---- These two verses make it quite CLEAR that there are no SECOND CHANCES. It says that those who "received not the love of the truth" are not saved and will be DAMNED. It says when Christ returns he will take vengeance on those who "obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ---and they will be punished with "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.."

The Bible simply does not teach that those who reject the Gospel in this life will have a second chance to repent in the next life. You shared a lot of verses---but NONE of them teach what you are teaching. I have to ask: if one is able to believe and accept that there is a Heaven where people go for all of eternity-----why cannot we believe it is very possible that there is a Hell where people go for all of eternity? Jesus taught there was a hell. In fact, he taught more about hell than anyone else in the Bible.

The followers of the Antichrist received not the love of Bible Truth so they would believe the demonic influences that God permitted deceive them. That doesn't apply to generations before the end time.

Same with the other text, it applies to the End Time Generation.

The Bible makes clear sacrifice can atone for sin done in ignorance. Christ says those ignorant of deity (VEILED BY HUMAN FLESH) can be forgiven blasphemy in the "age to come" which includes all in Hades/Sheol waiting for His coming, but those who blaspheme God knowingly won't be:

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)

So a second chance "in the age to come" exists for those who ignorantly opposed Christ:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:26-32 NKJ)

You didn't read any of the scripture proofs I gave you, or you would know this already.

Like the evolutionists who says "I see no intelligent creator when I look at nature", blind to the intelligent design in everything, you say the Bible doesn't support souls can be redeemed from sheol! Here's the first two I gave you to check out:




I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. (Deut. 32:39-40 KJV)

Literally interpreted “I kill, I make alive” explicitly states God’s power to grant postmortem life to anyone He has killed.


Nothing in this context about the restoration of Israel. Rather, it explicitly asserts God’s power to kill and make alive if He chooses to forgive those He killed.

[#B]
He bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up

“The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.
(1 Sam. 2:6 NASB)

Postmortem opportunity is explicitly taught, from sheol God keeps the feet of the godly, but the wicked are forever silenced in its darkness (vs. 9). Throughout Hanah’s praise literal action corresponds to the figurative language. No one is like the LORD, punishing and rewarding both living and the dead. Therefore boast no more, nor let arrogance come out of your mouth. The LORD will judge the ends of the earth; all who contend with the LORD will be shattered.


This time, click the #Hastag letter and see my commentary on these verses that PROVE there are second chances for those who ignorantly oppose God and die.

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]

Of course there is no second chance for those who rebel against God in full knowledge. There is no forgiveness for willfull rebellion.


If we were talking about human justice, and it meted out punishment as you claim God does, no room for paying fines, all must be put to death, there would be mass demonstrations protesting how unjust it is.

 

[Fish153]

The followers of the Antichrist received not the love of Bible Truth so they would believe the demonic influences that God permitted deceive them. That doesn't apply to generations before the end time.

Same with the other text, it applies to the End Time Generation.

The Bible makes clear sacrifice can atone for sin done in ignorance. Christ says those ignorant of deity (VEILED BY HUMAN FLESH) can be forgiven blasphemy in the "age to come" which includes all in Hades/Sheol waiting for His coming, but those who blaspheme God knowingly won't be:

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)

So a second chance "in the age to come" exists for those who ignorantly opposed Christ:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:26-32 NKJ)

You didn't read any of the scripture proofs I gave you, or you would know this already.

Like the evolutionists who says "I see no intelligent creator when I look at nature", blind to the intelligent design in everything, you say the Bible doesn't support souls can be redeemed from sheol! Here's the first two I gave you to check out:




I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. (Deut. 32:39-40 KJV)

Literally interpreted “I kill, I make alive” explicitly states God’s power to grant postmortem life to anyone He has killed.


Nothing in this context about the restoration of Israel. Rather, it explicitly asserts God’s power to kill and make alive if He chooses to forgive those He killed.

[#B]
He bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up

“The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.
(1 Sam. 2:6 NASB)

Postmortem opportunity is explicitly taught, from sheol God keeps the feet of the godly, but the wicked are forever silenced in its darkness (vs. 9). Throughout Hanah’s praise literal action corresponds to the figurative language. No one is like the LORD, punishing and rewarding both living and the dead. Therefore boast no more, nor let arrogance come out of your mouth. The LORD will judge the ends of the earth; all who contend with the LORD will be shattered.


This time, click the #Hastag letter and see my commentary on these verses that PROVE there are second chances for those who ignorantly oppose God and die.

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]

Of course there is no second chance for those who rebel against God in full knowledge. There is no forgiveness for willfull rebellion.


If we were talking about human justice, and it meted out punishment as you claim God does, no room for paying fines, all must be put to death, there would be mass demonstrations protesting how unjust it is.

Alfred--- you said, and you quoted:
"31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)"

So a second chance "in the age to come" exists for those who ignorantly opposed Christ.

You are making an error. Because Jesus states that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven "in this age, or in the age to come" that therefore everyone in the "age to come" will have a second chance to be forgiven and saved. Jesus isn't saying that though. jesus states that all sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men (now alive), but that the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven (to those who are alive)--OR in the age to come. It is an ETERNAL SIN. But Jesus is NOT saying that those "in the age to come" can be forgiven THEN for sin. No---they can be forgiven NOW----but those who commit ETERNAL SIN cannot be forgiven NOW or in the FUTURE. They are damned.
Let me give an example of how misinterpreting Scripture can lead to false doctrine:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

Some read this verse and say that if you are not baptized you will be damned. But the verse does not say that--it says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, but those who believe not will be damned. It says nothing about not being baptized leading to damnation.

Be careful how you interpret Scripture.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred--- you said, and you quoted:
"31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)"

So a second chance "in the age to come" exists for those who ignorantly opposed Christ.

You are making an error. Because Jesus states that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven "in this age, or in the age to come" that therefore everyone in the "age to come" will have a second chance to be forgiven and saved. Jesus isn't saying that though. jesus states that all sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men (now alive), but that the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven (to those who are alive)--OR in the age to come. It is an ETERNAL SIN. But Jesus is NOT saying that those "in the age to come" can be forgiven THEN for sin. No---they can be forgiven NOW----but those who commit ETERNAL SIN cannot be forgiven NOW or in the FUTURE. They are damned.
Let me give an example of how misinterpreting Scripture can lead to false doctrine:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

Some read this verse and say that if you are not baptized you will be damned. But the verse does not say that--it says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, but those who believe not will be damned. It says nothing about not being baptized leading to damnation.

Be careful how you interpret Scripture.

I am very careful. You are correct its an "ETERNAL SIN" to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but you missed THAT requires there must be "less than eternal sins" that can be forgiven.

[#R]
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men…in the age to come.”

All who knowingly oppose Christ are opposed to Christ and can't be forgiven: All knowingly against Jesus who is God the Son are also committing ETERNAL SIN, just as those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit. But those who blaspheme the "Son of Man" see only Jesus' human flesh, and therefore can be forgiven:

30 “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:30-32 NKJ)

Sins committed in ignorance can be forgiven (Heb. 5:2; 9:7; 1 Tim. 1:13; Lev. 5:18; Ez. 45:20; Lk. 12:48). That is why blasphemy against the Son of Man whose Incarnate Deity is veiled by Human Flesh can be forgiven. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven as His Deity was fully revealed in the Divine Truth and miracles only God can do.


Ignorance of Christ determines if one belongs to the “many” whose sins are covered by His eternal sacrifice (Heb. 9:26-28). The timing of this forgiveness begins at Christ’s Second Coming when He appears to those eagerly waiting for Him for salvation which is when “the age to come” (ἐν τῷ μέλλοντι Mt. 12:32; Eph. 1:21) begins:

Ὁ αἰὼν μέλλων, the period that succeeds the coming of the Messiah, עוֹלָם הַבָּא, as Jesus understood it: the time that follows the second coming.”-Meyer, H. A. W. (1880). Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Gospel of Matthew (F. Crombie, Ed.; P. Christie, Trans.; Vol. 1, p. 342). T&T Clark.

At Christ’s second coming those “in the grave” who died in ignorance of Christ are forgiven “every sin and blasphemy” and if they obey the gospel of Christ preached “also” to them they will be “judged according to men in the flesh” covered by the sacrifice of Christ for sins and rise in the resurrection to life when Christ appears “a second time…for salvation” (John 5:28-29; 1 Pet. 4:5-6; Heb. 9:27-28; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 2 Thess. 2:1; 1 Cor. 15:23, 51-57).

This excludes all who committed eternal sins like blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mt. 12:32), stumbling one of God’s children (Mk. 9:42-48), accepting the Mark of the Beast or worshipping him (Rev. 14:9-11).

So you missed Christ's point entirely. Its a contrast between sins done in ignorance, and willful sin.


Mark 16:16 isn't pertinent to sin done in ignorance.

I agree baptism isn't required for salvation, baptism was how people proved they truely believed. Baptism was a public confession Jesus is LORD.

When Jews were baptized in Jesus' Name they were cast out of the synagogue and persecuted, sometime to death. So true belief was indicated by baptism. If they weren't baptized they weren't true believers. True believers (sent by Christ to evangelize) also proved their identity by doing miraculous signs:

12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:12-20 NKJ)

Those who claimed to be apostles sent by Christ manifested signs proving they were "true believers". This prophecy was fulfilled by Christ's disciples in the 1st century.

But its not relevant to Eternal sin, or sins done ignorantly.

You weren't careful when interpreting this scripture. You confused them.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Regarding the Eternal Sin of accepting the Mark of the Beast.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:9-12 NKJ)

The reason why the penalty for accepting the mark is so severe, is because no one accepting the mark will be ignorant of what they are doing.

All accepting the Mark will KNOW they are choosing Satan over God, Antichrist over Christ. They will revel in their rebellion against God, and parade their mark like the Nazis did the Swastika.

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