Bible Study To Touch A Holy Thing.

[Kenny_ms]

And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzza:

That's worded in an odd way and I assumed it meant "because God killed Uzza" but I wonder why it just didn't say God killed Uzza?

Or does it mean something else?

 

[Malachi]

Was it the touch that zapped them or the disobedience? the lack of trust? Thinking God needed their help ( i have never been there :neutral )

In order to understand this incident as it should be understood in the light of Scripture, we need to go all the way back to Joshua 3:3 and then read 1 Chronicles chapters 13,14, and 15 as a whole.

The only only people who were authorized to carry the Ark of the Covenant were the Levites, and that too only after they had sanctified themselves. David should have been fully aware of this (having studied the Torah) but treated the matter lightly. He allowed the Ark to be placed in an ox-cart, hoping that because it was "new" it would make up for the absence of the Levites. Neither Uzza nor Ahio had any business being near the Ark, therefore there were extremely serious consequences. Then David compounded the disobedience by failing to bring the Ark to the city of David (1 Chron 13:14).

Instead of being angry and displeased, David should have made amends immediately. Now, when you read 1 Chron 15:14,15 you see that David does precisely what he should have done in the first place (as do the priests and Levites), and God blessed that effort. Therefore we read in v. 26 ",,,God helped the Levites that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD...".

The lesson here is that no detail of Scripture must be glossed over (no matter how insignificant), and no teaching should be treated as though it does not apply (unless God specifically tells us so). God tells us that the New Covenant has superseded the Old (the epistle to the Hebrews), but at the same time we are told that (1) the Ten Commandments are still binding because they are incorporated into the Law of Christ (Romans 13) and (2) that there are four other commandments from the Law of Moses which are still binding on Christians (Acts 15). We ignore those at our peril.

The second lesson is that God blesses and helps those who follow His Word strictly, and don't quibble or dismiss teachings because they are not "logical" or "rational". We can't explain the Mystery of God and the Godhead, but that does not mean we cannot believe it and teach it.

 

[Kenny_ms]

I just had the thought that maybe David was upset because he felt it was his fault. He would have been the one that ordered it to be moved with the cart and that in itself was disobedience.

That's possible, but still hard to say exactly what went on. Either way, It just seemed so unfair to me and it brings up the point, when man thinks God might have been unfair, it really puts us in a horrible position or maybe God understands, I'm just not quite sure how to deal with that. I always lean towards, "his ways are higher and he knows what he's doing" or the "Lean not unto your own understanding" verse. but, is that just a pacifier I give myself?

Guess in the end, I either go with that or ask God and be ready to maybe never know for sure.

Then there was the guy wanted to attend a relatives funeral/bury them and Jesus said no, lets go, let the dead bury the dead. Anyone else think that was rude/unfeeling? Am I out of line in questioning things like this? Could be that was a poor translation and it didn't come off just that way?

Anyway, there may be more, but out of the whole Bible, those two things are all I can think of that seemed a little unfair and they could be a misunderstanding or something lost in translation.

I assume God cannot be unfair....right? And I mean all of this with all due respect.

 

[Kenny_ms]

In order to understand this incident as it should be understood in the light of Scripture, we need to go all the way back to Joshua 3:3 and then read 1 Chronicles chapters 13,14, and 15 as a whole.

The only only people who were authorized to carry the Ark of the Covenant were the Levites, and that too only after they had sanctified themselves. David should have been fully aware of this (having studied the Torah) but treated the matter lightly. He allowed the Ark to be placed in an ox-cart, hoping that because it was "new" it would make up for the absence of the Levites. Neither Uzza nor Ahio had any business being near the Ark, therefore there were extremely serious consequences. Then David compounded the disobedience by failing to bring the Ark to the city of David (1 Chron 13:14).

Instead of being angry and displeased, David should have made amends immediately. Now, when you read 1 Chron 15:14,15 you see that David does precisely what he should have done in the first place (as do the priests and Levites), and God blessed that effort. Therefore we read in v. 26 ",,,God helped the Levites that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD...".

The lesson here is that no detail of Scripture must be glossed over (no matter how insignificant), and no teaching should be treated as though it does not apply (unless God specifically tells us so). God tells us that the New Covenant has superseded the Old (the epistle to the Hebrews), but at the same time we are told that (1) the Ten Commandments are still binding because they are incorporated into the Law of Christ (Romans 13) and (2) that there are four other commandments from the Law of Moses which are still binding on Christians (Acts 15). We ignore those at our peril.

The second lesson is that God blesses and helps those who follow His Word strictly, and don't quibble or dismiss teachings because they are not "logical" or "rational". We can't explain the Mystery of God and the Godhead, but that does not mean we cannot believe it and teach it.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Malachi, and I do get all that. All I'm thinking here is pretty simple and I addressed it in my last post.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Then there was the guy wanted to attend a relatives funeral/bury them and Jesus said no, lets go, let the dead bury the dead. Anyone else think that was rude/unfeeling? Am I out of line in questioning things like this? Could be that was a poor translation and it didn't come off just that way?

No, Jesus was teaching a very essential lesson here. Couple this with Matt. 10:37 and it makes sense and clearly demonstrates the commitment required to be a Christian. That doesn't mean the day you get saved you arrive at that point but it is a good demonstration of the penacle the Christian will reach if he or she will take fifteen minutes of every day to read through the Word of God.

 

[Deborah13]

(1) the Ten Commandments are still binding because they are incorporated into the Law of Christ (Romans 13) and (2) that there are four other commandments from the Law of Moses which are still binding on Christians (Acts 15). We ignore those at our peril.

Where does Paul teach, in Romans 13, that the Ten Commandments are still binding? He only addresses, love thy neighbor, examples. There are many more of these examples in the commandments of the Law of Moses, not just in the Ten. He says nothing about keeping the Sabbath Day holy.
imo...
When Christians teach that the Ten are binding on Christians, it creates a stumbling block for those who believe that Christians must observe the Sat. Sabbath and I would believe the same thing if I thought the 10 were binding for Christians.

 

[Kenny_ms]

No, Jesus was teaching a very essential lesson here. Couple this with Matt. 10:37 and it makes sense and clearly demonstrates the commitment required to be a Christian. That doesn't mean the day you get saved you arrive at that point but it is a good demonstration of the penacle the Christian will reach if he or she will take fifteen minutes of every day to read through the Word of God.

Oh, absolutely, and I understand the lesson part, just as God was teaching a lesson with the Ark incident.

It still seemed a little rude to me, that is if it came off exactly as it is written, with nothing lost in translation. Just as Uzza dying for maybe accidentally touching the Ark, seemed unfair.

I'm into a different area than the lesson part, again, I get that. And it's still possible, David felt the same way but I guess there are no real answers for my thoughts. It's something I would have to ask God.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Deb, I always though the commandments were still binding.

"If you love me you will keep my commandments"

But I'm open on that...

 

[Deborah13]

Deb, I always though the commandments were still binding.

"If you love me you will keep my commandments"

But I'm open on that...

Jesus said those words. He gave two that fulfill all those of the Law of Moses. Jesus said that, too.
James calls them the Royal Law and Paul, the Law of Christ. I'm sure you know what they are.

The old covenant was a legal contract between God and the Israelites. Moses was the mediator (rather like a lawyer and judge) who wrote down the laws of the contract, explained them, and judged whether they were being obeyed, and spoke to God for the people.
Our own US Constitution emulates the same legal structure as the old covenant. Basic laws or principles, descriptions of them, and amendments/additions to them.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Jesus said those words. He gave two that fulfill all those of the Law of Moses. Jesus said that, too.
James calls them the Royal Law and Paul, the Law of Christ. I'm sure you know what they are.

The old covenant was a legal contract between God and the Israelites. Moses was the mediator (rather like a lawyer and judge) who wrote down the laws of the contract, explained them, and judged whether they were being obeyed, and spoke to God for the people.
Our own US Constitution emulates the same legal structure as the old covenant. Basic laws or principles, descriptions of them, and amendments/additions to them.

Fair enough, but if the two cover all 10, wouldn't all 10 cover the 2? Point being, if we want to be more precise in the way we act/our walk, it might help to look to the 10 as a deeper explanation of the 2?

And then there are the additions in Revelation that sound pretty much like commands to me, or they may as well be:

Revelation 21:8King James Version (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Malachi]

Where does Paul teach, in Romans 13, that the Ten Commandments are still binding?

This should prove that the Ten Commandments are still binding, whether you sum them up as the Law of Christ, the Law of Love, or the Law of Liberty. To sum up something is the same as to maintain its validity:
8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:
for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;
and if there be any other commandment,
it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:
therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Now we know that these are the last six commandments, because that is the context. The first four commandments are summed up in the greatest commandment, which is to love God with our whole being (heart, mind, soul, spirit, strength). Maintaining the sabbath principle fulfils a part of this commandment.

So how does the sabbath fit in? (a) Christ is the Lord of the sabbath, (b) Christ gave Christians the Lord's Day (resurrection day) for worship and for rest and (c) the apostolic churches made it a practice to meet for worship on the first day of the week. Thus the PRINCIPLE of the sabbath (sanctified unto the Lord) is maintained by the Lord's Day (Rev 1:10). We are to be "in the Spirit" on the Lord's Day.

 

[Malachi]

And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzza:
That's worded in an odd way and I assumed it meant "because God killed Uzza" but I wonder why it just didn't say God killed Uzza?
Or does it mean something else?

That Hebrew word perets translated as "breach" means (among other things) a sudden and destructive attack. And that is precisely what it was (a breaking forth as a Divine judgment). Nothing odd about it. If the Holy Spirit does not use the word "killed" there is a good reason, which we may or may not understand. Thus the place where it occurred was called Perez-uzza, and maybe that is why the word "breach" is used.

 

[Kenny_ms]

That Hebrew word perets translated as "breach" means (among other things) a sudden and destructive attack. And that is precisely what it was (a breaking forth as a Divine judgment). Nothing odd about it. If the Holy Spirit does not use the word "killed" there is a good reason, which we may or may not understand. Thus the place where it occurred was called Perez-uzza, and maybe that is why the word "breach" is used.

I did finally look the word up and as well as the definition you found, there are others that fit. But even before we look it up, the meaning I always understood as to break into, break open or even to put a hole in (ouch!) can work there.

But, again, why that term? like you say, we may never know and I no longer see it as so important since it doesn't appear to change anything..

Thanks.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Where does Paul teach, in Romans 13, that the Ten Commandments are still binding? He only addresses, love thy neighbor, examples. There are many more of these examples in the commandments of the Law of Moses, not just in the Ten. He says nothing about keeping the Sabbath Day holy.
imo...
When Christians teach that the Ten are binding on Christians, it creates a stumbling block for those who believe that Christians must observe the Sat. Sabbath and I would believe the same thing if I thought the 10 were binding for Christians.

Agreed and will add only that we follow the God of both testaments, Jesus, and the importance of the Ten Commandments to the God following Christian is that these Ten, written by thee finger of God in stone is that they are the perfect word illustration of Jesus, the example we are to strive to become like. We are not bound to them in the sence the Jews were and many still are.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Fair enough, but if the two cover all 10, wouldn't all 10 cover the 2? Point being, if we want to be more precise in the way we act/our walk, it might help to look to the 10 as a deeper explanation of the 2?

And then there are the additions in Revelation that sound pretty much like commands to me, or they may as well be:

Revelation 21:8King James Version (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

2 or 10 and maybe 613, it does not matter, we are not bound but rather if the Holy Spirit indwells us we strive to attain that perfection because it is the illustration of our Master.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This should prove that the Ten Commandments are still binding, whether you sum them up as the Law of Christ, the Law of Love, or the Law of Liberty. To sum up something is the same as to maintain its validity:
8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:
for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;
and if there be any other commandment,
it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:
therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Now we know that these are the last six commandments, because that is the context. The first four commandments are summed up in the greatest commandment, which is to love God with our whole being (heart, mind, soul, spirit, strength). Maintaining the sabbath principle fulfils a part of this commandment.

So how does the sabbath fit in? (a) Christ is the Lord of the sabbath, (b) Christ gave Christians the Lord's Day (resurrection day) for worship and for rest and (c) the apostolic churches made it a practice to meet for worship on the first day of the week. Thus the PRINCIPLE of the sabbath (sanctified unto the Lord) is maintained by the Lord's Day (Rev 1:10). We are to be "in the Spirit" on the Lord's Day.

If we are bound where is faith? Where stands grace? If we were bound the Five Point Calvinist is correct and god has an evil spot in His heart and I tell you, that is never to be true. God has not created some for Heaven and some for Hell. All have a free will. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20, [URL='http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/isaiah/48/#v23048018']Isaiah 48:18, [URL='http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/ecclesiastes/9/#v21009010']Ecclesiastes 9:10, [URL='http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/proverbs/21/#v20021005']Proverbs 21:5, Matthew 22:37[/URL][/URL][/URL])

 

[Kenny_ms]

For now, at least until someone proves otherwise, I'm going to try to keep the commandments.

I don't expect to make it to heaven because I keep them perfectly, or because I'm good enough but I would expect to lose my salvation if I was bad enough and broke them willingly and as a lifestyle.

This really shouldn't be so complicated. Either we are supposed to keep the commandments best we can, or not.

 

[th1b.taylor]

For now, at least until someone proves otherwise, I'm going to try to keep the commandments.

I don't expect to make it to heaven because I keep them perfectly, or because I'm good enough but I would expect to lose my salvation if I was bad enough and broke them willingly and as a lifestyle.

This really shouldn't be so complicated. Either we are supposed to keep the commandments best we can, or not.

And if you love God, as many of us do, you will not cease trying and we all fail and start or begin anew.

 

[Kenny_ms]

And if you love God, as many of us do, you will not cease trying and we all fail and start or begin anew.

Agree.

 

[WIP]

I think keeping the 10 Commandments is an admirable goal but didn't Jesus take them to a new level? It seems the 10 Commandments are but an outline to show us what it means to be followers of Christ. Love God with all our hearts, minds, soul, and strength and love our neighbors as ourselves encompasses far more than just the 10 Commandments, does it not?

Matthew 5: NKJV
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’
32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’
34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

And He also said this....

Luke 17 NKJV
6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.
7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’?
8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’?
9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.
10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”