Bible Study Tongues in the Old Testament.

[hawkman]

Remember we are not gifted to minister to ourselves, but rather, to the Body.

Through the Gift of the utterance of the Holy Spirit I have ministered to others , I understand .

Paul stressed, in that context, that prophesy was superior to tongues.

Yes .
“To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:”

Paul said that tongues should be interpreted because the sign was still being given at that time. It kept it Biblical and edifying.

Yes . Where do the words that are being interpreted originate from ? Where does the interpretation originate from ?

But the sign was it's primary purpose.

A sign to unbelievers ?

The sign is no longer being given so the secondary uses went with it.

The unbelievers are no longer with us ?

Remember, If it's from God, it's a gift.

Most certainly . What gifts do you have ?

That context is a little bit different today because we no longer have Apostles, and the sign gifts.

Did God say he took the gifts away ? You seek to divide the gifts , they are ALL gifts of the Holy Spirit .

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi hope

I'm guessing that you believe that tongues are evidence of salvation? I know some people believe that. Your statement seems to fit that idea. Paul said "Do all speak in tongues?" The implied answer by Paul was 'no', there are a diversity of gifts to minister to the body, yet one body. If this was a proof of salvation...that would be a big problem, because "all would speak in tongues". Keep in mind that the term tongues is just a sixteenth century word for languages. Most people already know that but I think it's important to remind ourselves of this because I think that some people like the term 'tongues' because it giveth them a magic hocus pocus feeling. It just means languages. These days we don't need the gift of interpretation because our TVs have English closed captions for the hearing impaired.

The tongues referenced by Paul that not all had received, was the kind of tongues of foreign languages, and not the tongues Paul said were "of angels".

The church that I went to explained that the passage that said tongues were for unbelievers meant that people would see the miracle of it and want to come to Jesus.

As there must be an interpreter present for tongues (of angels) to be used at all, it doesn't seem that tongues can convince anyone "on the street" of anything but being crazy.
If one's gift of tongues includes the ability to speak a foreign language though, it will amaze the listeners.

Just the opposite happens. A woman on the show survivor spoke in gibberish and the people were not amazed.

See what happens without an interpreter when the tongues are "of angels" ?
If a French speaker had piped up and said "l can understand what is being said!" God would have received much glory.

The consensus that was spoken literally by one of the contestants was "I thought she was smarter than that." That's what people think when they see charismatics speaking in what they call tongues. All the non Christian religions do the same thing, and make the same claims.

Without the interpreter, the speaker was disobeying God.
Disobedient folks do not have the Spirit of God, or any of His gifts.

How do we know if a man is really a Christian? Jesus said you can tell a tree by it's fruit.

Yep.
Sin is not the fruit of the Godly.
Neither is the lack of gifts from God.

 

[Free]

I disagree.

You do, but it's telling that you provide no verse that supports your position. I, on the other hand, can provide many that speak of salvation, particularly justification, and there is not a single mention of tongues.

1 John 1:1-2 are pretty good at that.
It clearly separates those who walk in darkness-sin from those who walk in the light-God.

It sure does, and those who walk in darkness include professing believers who believe they're sinless, thereby showing they're not believers at all. John's words, not mine.

Speaking in tongues was meant to convince unbelievers that the speakers were indeed converted.

Yes, unbelieving Jews, as a judgement against them. But, as a close reading of 1 Cor. 13 shows, not all believers spoke in tongues, which means it absolutely is not to be used as evidence that a person is either saved or unsaved.

Again, I disagree.
There are tongues that are of foreign lands...like on the day of Pentecost, and there are the "tongues of angels", used in personal prayer, and if an interpreter is present, in a church setting.

How does one know if an interpreter is present if it isn't a known language? If it's in a personal setting, then who interprets?

Not all believers have received the gift of ability to interpret foreign languages.

Unless they study and learn another language.

Which "tongues" is Paul speaking of in 14:5?

1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. (ESV)

If he desires "you all to speak in tongues," then the clear implication is that not all speak in tongues, right?

But all believers should have received the tongues Paul called "of angels".

Again, that was hyperbole on Paul's part.

If they haven't, then God has denied them the benefits of Rom 8:26-27..."Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

Right. So, are you saying tongues, which are utterances, are the same as "groanings which cannot be uttered"?

It is written..."Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." (1 Cor 13:1)
Hyperbole ?

Yes, hyperbole. The next verse is also hyperbole:

1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. (ESV)

If part of a verse gives glory to God for anything He did, how can it be dangerous ?

Again, making a doctrine out of a single verse is bad enough; making one out of a part of a verse is worse. I should add that it's even worse when it is just a figure of speech. That is exactly why Mormons baptize on behalf of the dead--they take a single verse that just happens to mention it and made a doctrine out of it. It is very poor exegesis.

I wonder what those without the gift of tongues feel about Paul's words in 1 Cor 13:1 ?

Why should they feel anything (1 Cor. 12:12-27)? Every believer receives the Holy Spirit and every believer is given different gifts, as the Spirit wills (1 Cor 12:7-11, 28-30).

I wonder if they feel they have been left out ?
They should.
Of course, a real repentance from sin, and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, will fix their exile from God.

This is horribly unbiblical.

 

[electedbyHim]

Is there a heavenly language?​

There is some conjecture as to whether there is such a thing as a “heavenly language.” Is there a language unknown on earth but spoken fluently in heaven? If so, is it possible for someone to learn to speak this esoteric language? Is it possibly a gift of the Holy Spirit?

First, we should point out that the expression “heavenly language” is nowhere found in Scripture. Also, the phrase “tongues of angels” is used only once, in 1 Corinthians 13:1, “If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.”

Some have suggested that Paul’s reference to “tongues of angels” is proof that there is a heavenly language that only angels—and certain Spirit-filled believers—can speak. Let’s take a closer look at the verse and its context.

When Paul speaks of “tongues of men,” he is most likely referring to the gift given on the Day of Pentecost when the apostles were imbued by the Holy Spirit to speak languages virtually unknown to them (Acts 2:4-12). “Tongues of men” is a reference to the various human languages in use at the time. The Corinthian brethren so prized this miraculous gift that it became severely abused and counterfeited. Paul addressed this problem in his epistle. The Corinthians needed to know that God gave the ability to speak a foreign language as a sign, and the gift had some restrictions (1 Corinthians 14:1-33).

When Paul speaks of the “tongues of angels,” he isn’t speaking literally of a “heavenly language,” as some want to believe, but is using a hyperbolic expression. Hyperbole is an exaggeration to make a point. Paul is saying that, no matter how gifted one may be, whether in his own language, in foreign languages, or even in the hypothetical speech of angels, it’s all moot without love. In fact, without love, one’s speech is no better than the useless babble of the pagan religions. The pagan culture of Corinth honored their gods in ritualistic ceremonies accompanied by loud musical instruments such as gongs, cymbals, and trumpets. Their worship was a chaotic cacophony.

Speaking in “tongues of angels” is probably best understood as having the ability to speak with “divine eloquence.” As one well-known Bible scholar put it, “Paul is simply saying that, were he to have the ability to speak with the skill and eloquence of the greatest men, even with angelic eloquence, he would only become a noisy gong . . .”

The fact is that Paul used hyperbolic language elsewhere, including in the very next verse, with his mention of faith “to remove mountains.” His exaggerations serve to emphasize the necessity of love. Showing love is more important than the grandest, most miraculous action imaginable.

To suggest that Paul implies that “tongues of angels” is a kind of “heavenly language” is to go beyond what Scripture actually teaches. It is taking the expression completely out of context in an attempt to teach something other than what Paul actually said.
Gotquestions.net

 

[Hopeful 2]

You do, but it's telling that you provide no verse that supports your position. I, on the other hand, can provide many that speak of salvation, particularly justification, and there is not a single mention of tongues.

Your interpretations are so far from the truth, that I don't need any.

It sure does, and those who walk in darkness include professing believers who believe they're sinless, thereby showing they're not believers at all. John's words, not mine.

As darkness is sin, it cannot be "in" God.
Your version of believers are outside of God.
Those who commit sin are walking in darkness, and cannot say they have fellowship with God.
They also cannot say they know God.

Yes, unbelieving Jews, as a judgement against them.

The scripture says nothing about Jews.
You are adding to what is written.

But, as a close reading of 1 Cor. 13 shows, not all believers spoke in tongues, which means it absolutely is not to be used as evidence that a person is either saved or unsaved.

Not all believers spoke in 1 Cor 12:10s "diverse kinds" of tongues.
That is not the same gift of tongues that all the converted receive from God.

How does one know if an interpreter is present if it isn't a known language? If it's in a personal setting, then who interprets?

As the tongues are from God, He will know when to speak...in the case of the sort of tongues that are diverse languages.
In a church setting, members of the body will know if one of their own has the gift of interpretation before speaking in tongues to visitors.

Unless they study and learn another language.

If that is the case, the gift is not from God.
They learned it on their own.

Which "tongues" is Paul speaking of in 14:5?
1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. (ESV)

Paul is referencing the gift that he calls "angel's tongues".
It is usually between the prayer and God alone. (Rom 8:26-27)
Not foreign language tongues, like on the day of Pentecost.

If he desires "you all to speak in tongues," then the clear implication is that not all speak in tongues, right?

The only implication is that they already do speak in tongues, but he would rather they prophesied.

Again, that was hyperbole on Paul's part.

What else would you suggest one call the conversation between God and the Spirit within a convert ?

Right. So, are you saying tongues, which are utterances, are the same as "groanings which cannot be uttered"?

Yes, when the groanings of the Spirit can't be interpreted, they cannot be understood, or uttered.

Yes, hyperbole. The next verse is also hyperbole:
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. (ESV)

If hyperbole leads to charity, I am all for it.

Again, making a doctrine out of a single verse is bad enough; making one out of a part of a verse is worse. I should add that it's even worse when it is just a figure of speech.

What doctrine do you refer to ?

Why should they feel anything (1 Cor. 12:12-27)?

I would expect them to feel left out.

Every believer receives the Holy Spirit and every believer is given different gifts, as the Spirit wills (1 Cor 12:7-11, 28-30).

Do those you know that don't speak in tongues, or in varied tongues, have another gift from God that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are converted ?

This is horribly unbiblical.

It is what Peter told the first people that asked him "What shall we do ?"
To horrible for you ?
Or is it too horrible for those who mistaught you ?

 

[Dave...]

Tongues are given as a sign to them that believe not , of course that is what the verse tells us .

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Hey Hawk.

I know you didn't want to get into this too deep, so you're not obligated to answer.

But, do you agree that, according to 1 Corinthians 14:21-22, and the fact that it's a quote from Isaiah 28:11-12 (which gives more context), that different languages (translated "tongues" in the 16th century KJV), is a sign that God chose to give Israel of His coming judgment, which also based on that context, lines right up with other examples of God giving this same sign of judgment to Israel throughout the history of the OT all the way up to AD 70 on?

 

[hawkman]

Hey Hawk.

I know you didn't want to get into this too deep, so you're not obligated to answer.

So this means you do not want to answer my questions in my last reply to you ?
In your thread you linked in the OP , you left I noticed some other posters hanging with no reply , you bailed .

D

Post in thread 'A question for those who claim tongues for today.'

Mar 12, 2006

MrVersatile48 and John, I just now seen your posts but have no time to reply today. Catch you tomorrow.

Dave

• Dave...

I understand why you don't want to debate if the gift of tongues is ceased or not . But this new thread is all about tongues ceasing according to your posts .

 

[Dave...]

Your doctrine doesn't have "all" the "circumstances' covered.
How do you prove a man is really a Christian ?

At one time in history, languages could have been considered proof of salvation, but your context is wrong. Please bear with me.

At Pentecost, a lot of things were happening. The whole judgment thing on Israel, of which languages was a sign. Part of that Judgement was that the gentiles (that's us), were being grafted into God's promise to provoke Israel to jealousy (Romans 9). The Jews of that time wouldn't have believed it. They didn't like the gentiles and vise versa. Do you remember Peters reaction after the gentiles received the same NT indwelling with all the same miraculous signs in Acts? He reported back to the other Apostles that, "salvation has come to the gentiles" too. This was proof to the Jews, and Apostles, that salvation did, in fact, come to that gentiles. And also proof to the gentiles that the Apostles were the true spokesmen for God. God was pulling believers together (Jew and gentile) where there was once a major division. This was the foundation of the Church that was being birthed with the first Spiritually baptized into Jesus (in Christ) by Jesus, with the Holy Spirit. Every OT saint who trusted in Jesus before the cross was due the Promise of the Father. Which could not be given before the cross.

So in that context, that being the birth of the Church, which is unrepeatable, when a person spoke in their own foreign language (that's the sign), and other people who never spoke that language understood them, everyone realized the miracle of it. God was undoing what He had done way back in Babylon by confusing the languages.

Also, In that context, the sign, a true miracle (At Pentecost only), with all the accompanying signs, told the Jews that salvation had also come to the gentiles, and vise versa.

Also, in that context, It told everyone that the new Covenant has come, and with it the Promise of the Father was given to all the OT saints it was due.

And also, in that context, it told the Jews that judgment was coming (AD 70), in fact, the gentiles being grafted in was part of that judgment.

The Judgment that was coming didn't happen yet (AD 70). Pentecost was about AD 33. In 1 Corinthians (AD 53-55), Paul, who was dealing with a very worldly Corinthian church that had absorbed all the pagan mystery religion stuff, including what you now call tongues today, was gently correcting them. If you understand this, you will see exactly what Paul was saying in those three chapters. They didn't understand, so he told them. first, Paul quotes Isaiah, to show them what the real gift was, and what is was for. It wasn't ecstatic speech that spoke to or from the gods, it was a foreign language that symbolized that judgment was coming to Israel. Then Paul expressed the importance of everyone understanding in the assembly, of which prophecy did perfectly. But the final judgment didn't come down yet, so Paul also showed that if anyone spoke in a foreign language while in the assembly of believers, which was still a sign of Judgment on unbelieving Israel, that it must be interpreted so that everyone was edified and their was no confusion, because God is not the author of confusion. The fact that anyone could speak in more than one language back the was considered a gift from God. The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the Name of the Lord.

It was a miracle at Pentecost for obvious reasons. It's not a miracle today, in fact, there is not one person, whether a person of any religion, or even an atheist, who cannot emulate what you you call tongues today. So How could it be considered proof of anything?

What todays Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have does is taken Paul's what not to do's, and turned them into commands, and thus recreating the Corinthian church with all its mystery religion stuff before Paul corrected them.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

So this means you do not want to answer my questions in my last reply to you ?
In your thread you linked in the OP , you left I noticed some other posters hanging with no reply , you bailed .

D

Post in thread 'A question for those who claim tongues for today.'

Mar 12, 2006

MrVersatile48 and John, I just now seen your posts but have no time to reply today. Catch you tomorrow.

Dave

• Dave...

I understand why you don't want to debate if the gift of tongues is ceased or not . But this new thread is all about tongues ceasing according to your posts .

In this thread, I'm working my way down. I can't seem to catch up. Sorry if I either missed it or haven't gotten to it yet. I'm still on the first page trying to make sure I answered everything.

I see it now. Page two. I just didn't get that far yet.

 

[Dave...]

Yes . Where do the words that are being interpreted originate from ? Where does the interpretation originate from ?

1) From a foreign speaker. 2) probably someone who speaks two languages. I don't think that the languages after Pentecost had a miraculous element to it. What happened at Pentecost was a miracle. People heard in their own language what foreigners were speaking in their own language. With the languages being confused at Babylon, the only explanation of that miracle is that it's from God. Only He could undo the road block that He Himself set up as judgment.

What happens after that was just someone speaking in a foreign language and someone else who knew two languages to interpret it. I don't see any evidence of the contrary, or anything in the Bible to suggest anything else. Speaking in two languages would have been considered a gift also, considering that God had confused the languages to begin with. Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God. Even if it's a sign of Judgment for someone else, it's from God for His purpose and should be considered good, and a gift. I think that's the way Paul understood it when he wrote to the Corinthians.

A sign to unbelievers ?
The unbelievers are no longer with us ?

1) Unbelieving Israel. 2) God's program had shifted from Israel to include gentiles. After AD 70, the judgment that languages pointed to, Israel, really didn't have a nation to hear foreign languages from that point after words. They heard foreign languages every day while scattered abroad, though. But really, the idea back then was that hearing foreign languages was never a good thing. It meant war, it meant God's judgment. The languages were still confused from Babylon all the way to Pentecost. At Pentecost, with the birth of the Church, the transition took some time and there was some carryover. The destruction in AD 70 pretty much signified the end of that transition.

Most certainly . What gifts do you have ?

Anything good that comes from me for the Church is an undeserved gift from God. As Paul said, for what do you have (that is good) that you didn't receive? I think it's a mistake to see the gifts as various super powers. The super power is God allowing us to be a light and do good from Him.

Did God say he took the gifts away ? You seek to divide the gifts , they are ALL gifts of the Holy Spirit .

The better question is this: Do you see the reason for the sign gifts anymore? We don't have Apostles or new revelation being taught that need to be confirmed with miracles. God's program already includes the gentiles, and is not limited to Israel anymore. All the reasons that the signs were given are no longer needed. Remember, Israel always required a sign, and that was a bad thing. They wanted signs, and God gave them signs. But not to their liking. In that same way, believers who only see God in miracles, always looking to make a miracle out of everything, is the same thing. It's not good. Something doesn't need to be a miracle for God to do it. As James White said. We honor God the most when we see that. Did you know that God mostly answers prayers through providence? But people who only look for Him in miracles will never see that. They just try to make everything a miracle.

I consider myself a cessationist. Though most would think that means I don't believe in the gifts. Just the opposite. The gifts, the true gifts, are anything God gives us. Everything from Him will be good. Even the non miraculous stuff. While it would be cool to see a miracle, His providence what's really amazing. The fact that He watches over me providing for me in every way, not just every day, but every moment. His grace, amazing. The fact that He took a wretch like me, and did anything good with me is amazing. Anything good that comes from me is a gift from God.

Alright, next post.

 

[Dave...]

The tongues referenced by Paul that not all had received, was the kind of tongues of foreign languages, and not the tongues Paul said were "of angels".

As there must be an interpreter present for tongues (of angels) to be used at all, it doesn't seem that tongues can convince anyone "on the street" of anything but being crazy.
If one's gift of tongues includes the ability to speak a foreign language though, it will amaze the listeners.

See what happens without an interpreter when the tongues are "of angels" ?
If a French speaker had piped up and said "l can understand what is being said!" God would have received much glory.

Without the interpreter, the speaker was disobeying God.
Disobedient folks do not have the Spirit of God, or any of His gifts.

Yep.
Sin is not the fruit of the Godly.
Neither is the lack of gifts from God.

I think that I answered a lot of this stuff in a previous post today in answering Hawk .

Hope, Romans 8:26 is not proof of an Angelic language (ecstatic speech), in fact, just the opposite. It says groanings, not languages, and it cannot be uttered. How you got proof of Angelic personal prayer language from that, I'll never know. Its just not there.

Romans 8:26 NKJV. Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

This is the Helper, the Comforter, the Teacher, doing what He does for every believer. Everything points back to His Word, not experience.

1 John 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

11-13 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

At one time in history, languages could have been considered proof of salvation, but your context is wrong. Please bear with me.

I am assuming the 'languages' you are referring to are the tongues-foreign-languages...like on the day of Pentecost.
And when in history, was the speaking of other languages a sign of salvation ?

At Pentecost, a lot of things were happening. The whole judgment thing on Israel, of which languages was a sign.

Please explain what languages had to do with the judgement of Israel ?

Part of that Judgement was that the gentiles (that's us), were being grafted into God's promise to provoke Israel to jealousy (Romans 9).

You are equating jealousy with judgement ?

The Jews of that time wouldn't have believed it. They didn't like the gentiles and vise versa. Do you remember Peters reaction after the gentiles received the same NT indwelling with all the same miraculous signs in Acts?

Yes, he water baptized them, in the name of Jesus Christ.

He reported back to the other Apostles that, "salvation has come to the gentiles" too. This was proof to the Jews, and Apostles, that salvation did, in fact, come to that gentiles.

I agree with that.

And also proof to the gentiles that the Apostles were the true spokesmen for God.

Do you have some evidence that they were not Jesus' spokesmen prior to that ?

God was pulling believers together (Jew and gentile) where there was once a major division.

Agreed.

This was the foundation of the Church that was being birthed with the first Spiritually baptized into Jesus (in Christ) by Jesus, with the Holy Spirit.

What is the "This" you refer to ?
Speaking in tongues ?
Apostleship taking the forefront ?

Jesus was the foundation of the church, so maybe you have another descriptive word to replace 'foundation' ?

Every OT saint who trusted in Jesus before the cross was due the Promise of the Father. Which could not be given before the cross.

OK.
But aren't they still due the same gift after the cross ?
I'ld say, yes.

So in that context, that being the birth of the Church, which is unrepeatable, when a person spoke in their own foreign language (that's the sign), and other people who never spoke that language understood them, everyone realized the miracle of it. God was undoing what He had done way back in Babylon by confusing the languages.

I cannot agree.
If anything, wouldn't the understanding of the foreign language be the sign ? (I'll guess that is what you meant).

Also, In that context, the sign, a true miracle (At Pentecost only), with all the accompanying signs, told the Jews that salvation had also come to the gentiles, and vise versa.

OK, I get your POV.
You are saying that the gift of tongues, (the foreign languages kind), was for a single, early church, purpose, and is no longer pertinent.
I don't agree, as it has the same purpose today, that it had 2000 years ago.
Validating the real converts.

Also, in that context, It told everyone that the new Covenant has come, and with it the Promise of the Father was given to all the OT saints it was due.

Jesus' resurrection told everyone that the NT had come.

And also, in that context, it told the Jews that judgment was coming (AD 70),

I see no prophetic warning in the gift of tongues.
You're reaching.

in fact, the gentiles being grafted in was part of that judgment.

I cannot agree with that either.
How is the addition of hundreds of brethren, a bad judgement ?

The Judgment that was coming didn't happen yet (AD 70). Pentecost was about AD 33.

I don't agree.

In 1 Corinthians (AD 53-55), Paul, who was dealing with a very worldly Corinthian church that had absorbed all the pagan mystery religion stuff, including what you now call tongues today, was gently correcting them.

Proof please.
Name one other pagan mystery thing Paul confronted.
I am surprised that you are willing to call a sign from God "some pagan mystery religion stuff".
It is border-line blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

If you understand this, you will see exactly what Paul was saying in those three chapters. They didn't understand, so he told them. first, Paul quotes Isaiah, to show them what the real gift was, and what is was for. It wasn't ecstatic speech that spoke to or from the gods, it was a foreign language that symbolized that judgment was coming to Israel. Then Paul expressed the importance of everyone understanding in the assembly, of which prophecy did perfectly. But the final judgment didn't come down yet, so Paul also showed that if anyone spoke in a foreign language while in the assembly of believers, which was still a sign of Judgment on unbelieving Israel, that it must be interpreted so that everyone was edified and their was no confusion, because God is not the author of confusion. The fact that anyone could speak in more than one language back the was considered a gift from God. The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the Name of the Lord.

It was a miracle at Pentecost for obvious reasons. It's not a miracle today, in fact, there is not one person, whether a person of any religion, or even an atheist, who cannot emulate what you you call tongues today. So How could it be considered proof of anything?

A false emulation will be recognized quickly in a real church.
Posers hate the real thing, and don't tend to hang around very long.

What todays Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have does is taken Paul's what not to do's, and turned them into commands, and thus recreating the Corinthian church with all its mystery religion stuff before Paul corrected them.
Dave

I don't agree.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I think that I answered a lot of this stuff in a previous post today in answering Hawk .

Hope, Romans 8:26 is not proof of an Angelic language (ecstatic speech), in fact, just the opposite. It says groanings, not languages, and it cannot be uttered. How you got proof of Angelic personal prayer language from that, I'll never know. Its just not there.

Romans 8:26 NKJV. Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

This is the Helper, the Comforter, the Teacher, doing what He does for every believer. Everything points back to His Word, not experience.

1 John 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

11-13 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Only those whose repentance from sin is true will get such a gift from God.
Do you still commit sin ?

 

[hawkman]

So in that context, that being the birth of the Church, which is unrepeatable, when a person spoke in their own foreign language (that's the sign), and other people who never spoke that language understood them, everyone realized the miracle of it.

1) From a foreign speaker. 2) probably someone who speaks two languages. I don't think that the languages after Pentecost had a miraculous element to it. What happened at Pentecost was a miracle. People heard in their own language what foreigners were speaking in their own language

You are turning the gift of tongues into a gift of ears ! It is not a gift of hearing but it is a gift of tongues .
They were speaking in a tongue foreign to them as the Holy Spirit gave the utterance , a tongue they did not speak without the Holy Spirit empowering them . Through the power of the Holy Spirit they were speaking the languages that were native to the people gathered there that day . The people heard the Galileans speaking of God to them in their native dialects . Do you understand what I am saying Dave... ? Just like Acts CH 2 .

Acts 2:8 Context​

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

 

[Dave...]

You are turning the gift of tongues into a gift of ears ! It is not a gift of hearing but it is a gift of tongues .
They were speaking in a tongue foreign to them as the Holy Spirit gave the utterance , a tongue they did not speak without the Holy Spirit empowering them . Through the power of the Holy Spirit they were speaking the languages that were native to the people gathered there that day . The people heard the Galileans speaking of God to them in their native dialects . Do you understand what I am saying Dave... ? Just like Acts CH 2 .

Acts 2:8 Context​

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

This part in Acts is not what was happening in Corinth.

Look again in Acts 2:5-11 and context that you used above. First, vs.5 "because every man heard them speak in his own language." All the people in vs. 9-11 were speaking in their own language. And everyone heard it in their own language [/B] Vs.11 "we do hear them speak in our tongues ((languages)) the wonderful works of God." No matter who was speaking in whatever language (vs. 9-11), each heard it in their own language (vs. 8) "And how hear we every man in our own tongue ((language)), wherein we were born".

It says that the miracle was in the hearing.

 

[hawkman]

This part in Acts is not what was happening in Corinth.

Look again in Acts 2:5-11 and context that you used above. First, vs.5 "because every man heard them speak in his own language." All the people in vs. 9-11 were speaking in their own language. And everyone heard it in their own language [/B] Vs.11 "we do hear them speak in our tongues ((languages)) the wonderful works of God." No matter who was speaking in whatever language (vs. 9-11), each heard it in their own language (vs. 8) "And how hear we every man in our own tongue ((language)), wherein we were born".

It says that the miracle was in the hearing.

The apostles were speaking in other tongues as the spirit gave the utterance . The apostles had the Gift of speaking in tongues . The ones hearing the apostles DID NOT have a gift from the Holy Spirit , a gift of ears ! ? !

I understand completely what is being said about speaking in a language that is not you own by the power of the Holy Spirit because I do just that when the Holy Spirit gives the utterance .

 

[Free]

Your interpretations are so far from the truth, that I don't need any.

You certainly do. You are making the claim that those who don't speak in tongues aren't saved. That is a very serious claim that demands evidence, yet you continue to avoid providing any. But, we both know why, don't we? Because there isn't any. You are judging others as not being saved without any biblical basis for doing so, which is very sinful.

As darkness is sin, it cannot be "in" God.
Your version of believers are outside of God.
Those who commit sin are walking in darkness, and cannot say they have fellowship with God.
They also cannot say they know God.

Well, you're in sin, so according to your own position you're not saved. Of course, according to what John is actually saying about those who claim to be sinless . . .

The scripture says nothing about Jews.
You are adding to what is written.

What is it about context that so many on these forums find so difficult to understand? This is troubling when it is essential to proper understanding.

1Co 14:21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
1Co 14:22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. (ESV)

Verse 21 is a quote from Isa. 28:11, where God clearly states that he will speak to the Jews "by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue." It is about judgement on his people.

Verse 22 connects to this with "Thus," that is, what he is about to say follows from what he just stated in verse 21. It also implies that the tongues being spoken of are those of human languages unknown to the speaker, as in Acts 2.

Not all believers spoke in 1 Cor 12:10s "diverse kinds" of tongues.
That is not the same gift of tongues that all the converted receive from God.

Again, where is your evidence?

Paul is referencing the gift that he calls "angel's tongues".

Except that, again, that is merely hyperbole and in no way whatsoever is Paul saying that he or anyone can speak in the tongues of angels.

It is usually between the prayer and God alone. (Rom 8:26-27)

Where does Paul say this is tongues? Where does Paul say that this is audibly spoken by the person praying?

Not foreign language tongues, like on the day of Pentecost.

Which is the only kind of tongues mentioned in the Bible and is consistent with Paul's use of it throughout 1 Cor. 12-14.

The only implication is that they already do speak in tongues, but he would rather they prophesied.

On the contrary:

1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
1Co 14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.
...
1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
...
1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, (ESV)

First, Paul says that they should "earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially" that of prophecy. This implies that not all have the gift of prophecy. Second, we see in verse 24 what would happen if all in the church prophesied, which we know couldn't be the case since not all have the gift of prophecy. Third, in verse 5, Paul wants all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.

It follows then that Paul is most likely implying that just as all do not have the gift of prophecy, not all have the gift of tongues, which goes right back to chapter 12 where he clearly states that not all have the gift of tongues. Additionally, he mentions that a person shouldn't speak in tongues if there is no one to interpret, which is another gift mentioned in chapter 12.

The whole flow is consistent from chapters 12 to 14. There is only one gift of tongues being spoken of--that of human languages.

What else would you suggest one call the conversation between God and the Spirit within a convert ?

Not hyperbole.

Yes, when the groanings of the Spirit can't be interpreted, they cannot be understood, or uttered.

That isn't what is stated. You're reading into Scripture to suit your doctrine rather than letting it speak.

If hyperbole leads to charity, I am all for it.

What does that have to do with anything? Nowhere does Paul say that any of these hyperbolic things lead to charity.

What doctrine do you refer to ?

Which do you think given the context of this discussion?

I would expect them to feel left out.

Yes, they would, if they were taught your false doctrine, really a heresy, which is why it is so damaging--it can make people think they aren't saved, causing all sorts of needless angst and distress. It could lead someone to leave the faith.

Rightly understood, however, a Christian should know, from the passages I provided, that every believer has different gifts for their particular place in the body of Christ, and none should be jealous of another or feel left out.

Do those you know that don't speak in tongues, or in varied tongues, have another gift from God that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are converted ?

They love others and they love and obey and Jesus. They also get convicted of their sins and continually repent, seeking God's forgiveness. Gifts do not prove that a person is converted. What does Jesus say?

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (ESV)

It is what Peter told the first people that asked him "What shall we do ?"
To horrible for you ?
Or is it too horrible for those who mistaught you ?

You stated:

"I wonder if they feel they have been left out ?
They should.
Of course, a real repentance from sin, and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, will fix their exile from God."

You are now teaching at least two heresies on these forums, as seen in your comments above, which is why I said those comments are horrible. It has nothing to do with what Peter stated, but your twisting of Scripture and sinfully damning to hell those who are truly saved and hold to biblical truth.

 

[hawkman]

It says that the miracle was in the hearing.

No , an out pouring of the Holy Spirit , the Gift of Tongues ! Read below , maybe it will help . Notice what is said here , "speak in perfect English " .

May this writer conclude this booklet with a personal testimony? This writer¹s own mother, in 1962, made a trip to the country of Egypt. While in a church meeting there, a certain Arabic lady was to be baptized. This lady had no education, not even so much as to be able to read and write in her native tongue. After she was baptized, the Holy Ghost fell upon her. She suddenly began to speak in perfect English as the spirit gave her utterance. She had no prior knowledge of the English language, yet she spoke fluently without even so much as an accent! She said, "How beautiful is the sky, my God, how beautiful is the sky." She went on to praise God with may other words in English. Afterward, she gave a message directly to the missionary who understood English. This happened just like the book of Acts. It was the exact same experience.

 

[Dave...]

I am assuming the 'languages' you are referring to are the tongues-foreign-languages...like on the day of Pentecost.
And when in history, was the speaking of other languages a sign of salvation ?

Hi Hope. Not like the day of Pentecost, but actually on the day of Pentecost. That's the only time there was a miracle attached to languages. What was happening at Corinth was a whole other ballgame.

Please explain what languages had to do with the judgement of Israel ?

I'll need to refer you back to the OPs, Hope.

You are equating jealousy with judgement ?

Yes, see Romans 11:11-31. My bad, I've been saying Romans 9, Romans 11:11-31 is what I meant when referring to the grafting in of the gentiles. .

Yes, he water baptized them, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Jesus baptized them with the Holy Spirit. That's the Promise of the Father (Holy Spirit NT indwellin) that was owed to them. That's what Pentecost was, the birth of the Church. The first "placed into" (baptized) into Christ Jesus. That's how a person is saved now and becomes "in Christ". Being "in Christ" before that wouldn't save a person. There was no 'righteousness of God' established. There was no atonement made for sin yet. There was no death and resurrection for us to have the means to be born again with. All these things are given as a result of us being "in Christ" after the death resurrection, and ascension of Jesus.

Do you have some evidence that they were not Jesus' spokesmen prior to that ?

Jesus chose them.

What is the "This" you refer to ?

Pentecost.

Jesus was the foundation of the church, so maybe you have another descriptive word to replace 'foundation' ?

Yes, Jesus is the Foundation. That foundation was available to be built upon starting at Pentecost when the first believers were placed into the Body, hence it is commonly known as the birth of the Church, which is what we call Pentecost.

OK. But aren't they still due the same gift after the cross ? I'ld say, yes.

That's what I said.

Jesus' resurrection told everyone that the NT had come.

It told everyone that He was the true Messiah. Pentecost was an extension of that. The promise of the OT being fulfilled to usher in the NT. It told everyone a lot of things, like that the gentiles were included.

I see no prophetic warning in the gift of tongues.
You're reaching.

I'll need to refer you back to the OPs for an answer. It's all there.

I cannot agree with that either.
How is the addition of hundreds of brethren, a bad judgement ?

Romans 11:11-31 again

Proof please.
Name one other pagan mystery thing Paul confronted.
I am surprised that you are willing to call a sign from God "some pagan mystery religion stuff".
It is border-line blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

This is common knowledge. Here's a random ling that I just googled. I skimmed it.

Tongues and the Mystery Religions of Corinth

Everything that Charismatics and Pentecostal do today regarding tongues exactly emulates the mystery religions of that time.

 

[hawkman]

It says that the miracle was in the hearing.

The apostles and other Christians were speaking in other tongues .

Acts 2:4 Context​

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?