torment sin vs willful sin

[thesaintman]

can you say me it

 

[Hopeful]

can you say me it

All sin is willful.

 

[for_his_glory]

All sin is willful.

No such teaching in scripture. Sinless perfection is a false teaching that leads others away from Christ as they feel they would never be good enough. We have told you many times to quit teaching this false doctrine.

Willful sin means intentional or deliberate acts, having or showing a stubborn and or effects, determined intention to do as one wants regardless of the consequences. Other words they who willfully sin are those who disregard Christ.

None of us are perfect, but are being made holy continually being conformed to the image of Christ as sanctification is a process, not something that happens all at once when we were Spiritually born again.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Hopeful]

No such teaching in scripture. Sinless perfection is a false teaching that leads others away from Christ as they feel they would never be good enough. We have told you many times to quit teaching this false doctrine.

Living the doctrine which is according to Godliness, (1 Tim 6:3), was not my intention in answering "thesaintman".
Just that all sin in driven by lust, enticement, temptation, and conception.
There is nothing unwillful involved.

Willful sin means intentional or deliberate acts, having or showing a stubborn and or effects, determined intention to do as one wants regardless of the consequences. Other words they who willfully sin are those who disregard Christ

Agreed.
Running over a kid who darts out between parked cars is not a sin.

None of us are perfect, but are being made holy continually being conformed to the image of Christ as sanctification is a process, not something that happens all at once when we were Spiritually born again.

That is your doctrine.
But I don't keep interjecting that it is false doctrine like you keep doing to me..

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Done and did, a completed event, thanks be to God.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I can't wait for the day when I am not a little older or feebler.
But I have already reached the day when I am no longer wicked or evil.

James makes it clear what is required for something to be a sin, in James 1:14-5..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
How can you get a mistaken/unwillful sin out of that?
No lust, no sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Living the doctrine which is according to Godliness, (1 Tim 6:3), was not my intention in answering "thesaintman".
Just that all sin in driven by lust, enticement, temptation, and conception.
There is nothing unwillful involved.

Agreed.
Running over a kid who darts out between parked cars is not a sin.

That is your doctrine.
But I don't keep interjecting that it is false doctrine like you keep doing to me..

Done and did, a completed event, thanks be to God.

I can't wait for the day when I am not a little older or feebler.
But I have already reached the day when I am no longer wicked or evil.

James makes it clear what is required for something to be a sin, in James 1:14-5..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
How can you get a mistaken/unwillful sin out of that?
No lust, no sin.

I don't know a Christian that is wicked or evil.
Is this what you mean by not sinning?

One does not have to be evil or wicked to sin.
Maybe you don't Really understand what sin is and how Sensitive God is to sin?

Maybe your standard is too low?

 

[JLB]

Living the doctrine which is according to Godliness, (1 Tim 6:3), was not my intention in answering "thesaintman".
Just that all sin in driven by lust, enticement, temptation, and conception.
There is nothing unwillful involved.

Agreed.
Running over a kid who darts out between parked cars is not a sin.

That is your doctrine.
But I don't keep interjecting that it is false doctrine like you keep doing to me..

Done and did, a completed event, thanks be to God.

I can't wait for the day when I am not a little older or feebler.
But I have already reached the day when I am no longer wicked or evil.

James makes it clear what is required for something to be a sin, in James 1:14-5..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
How can you get a mistaken/unwillful sin out of that?
No lust, no sin.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

• if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This scripture is irrefutable concerning our (Christian) sin verses the whole world (non Christian).



“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


Jesus teaches about one brother in Christ who sins against another brother in Christ.


Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4




Hopeful

Consider this a warning to you.


If I see you post or insinuate that a Christian who sins was never really saved to begin with.

Or

At water baptism we literally die physically and are literally resurrected from the dead and are given a sinless physical body… I will remove you from that thread.


If you do it again, then you will be removed for 30 days.

If you do it a third time, you will permanently lose your privileges here.



I and other members of staff have tried to work with you in this matter, but you refuse to cooperate. I believe some of the things you post are great, however we will no longer tolerate you posting those two areas of your “sinless perfection” doctrine.


We love you and desire that you stay here.


Please consider abiding by this request.





JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Living the doctrine which is according to Godliness, (1 Tim 6:3), was not my intention in answering "thesaintman".
Just that all sin in driven by lust, enticement, temptation, and conception.
There is nothing unwillful involved.

Agreed.
Running over a kid who darts out between parked cars is not a sin.

That is your doctrine.
But I don't keep interjecting that it is false doctrine like you keep doing to me..

Done and did, a completed event, thanks be to God.

I can't wait for the day when I am not a little older or feebler.
But I have already reached the day when I am no longer wicked or evil.

James makes it clear what is required for something to be a sin, in James 1:14-5..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
How can you get a mistaken/unwillful sin out of that?
No lust, no sin.

Scripture does say we are to be holy as He is holy and sin no more as this is how we should live our lives, but what you do not seem to understand that this fleshly body is not Spiritual, nor can it ever be, but when Christ returns then we will be made incorruptible and immortal, 1Corinthians 15:50-55.

What John Wesley, Charles Wesley, John Fletcher of the 18th century in whom founded the "Holiness movement" that you follow in their doctrines on sinless perfection do not teach that sanctification is a process and does not happen all at once.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

He that has begun a good work continues to work in us as sanctification is a process unto holiness that we will not willingly sin, but yet not made perfect until Christ returns'

 

[for_his_glory]

Living the doctrine which is according to Godliness, (1 Tim 6:3), was not my intention in answering "thesaintman".
Just that all sin in driven by lust, enticement, temptation, and conception.
There is nothing unwillful involved.

Agreed.
Running over a kid who darts out between parked cars is not a sin.

That is your doctrine.
But I don't keep interjecting that it is false doctrine like you keep doing to me..

Done and did, a completed event, thanks be to God.

I can't wait for the day when I am not a little older or feebler.
But I have already reached the day when I am no longer wicked or evil.

James makes it clear what is required for something to be a sin, in James 1:14-5..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
How can you get a mistaken/unwillful sin out of that?
No lust, no sin.

There are no wicked and evil Christians that are Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

Living the doctrine which is according to Godliness, (1 Tim 6:3), was not my intention in answering "thesaintman".
Just that all sin in driven by lust, enticement, temptation, and conception.
There is nothing unwillful involved.

You only post 1Timothy 6:3 to try and prove your point, but you need the full context of what is being taught in these verses as they are about false teachers and true contentment. When you rail on others saying they are not really Spiritually born again if they sin, this is a sin found within you according to the highlighted scriptures below.

1Tim 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
1Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Tim 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strife of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Tim 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Tim 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

 

[Hopeful]

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

• if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This scripture is irrefutable concerning our (Christian) sin verses the whole world (non Christian).



“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


Jesus teaches about one brother in Christ who sins against another brother in Christ.


Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4




Hopeful

Consider this a warning to you.


If I see you post or insinuate that a Christian who sins was never really saved to begin with.

Or

At water baptism we literally die physically and are literally resurrected from the dead and are given a sinless physical body… I will remove you from that thread.

If you do it again, then you will be removed for 30 days.
If you do it a third time, you will permanently lose your privileges here.
I have and other members of staff have tried to work with you in this matter, but you refuse to cooperate. I believe some of the things you post are great, however we will no longer tolerate you posting those two areas. of your “sinless perfection” doctrine.

We love you and desire that you stay here.
Please consider abiding by this request.

No problem, as the seed has been planted that one need not succumb to temptation ever again.
Jesus conquered sin while in the flesh, as we can be in Him, we can partake in that victory.
I will abide by your guidelines.

 

[Hopeful]

Scripture does say we are to be holy as He is holy and sin no more as this is how we should live our lives, but what you do not seem to understand that this fleshly body is not Spiritual, nor can it ever be, but when Christ returns then we will be made incorruptible and immortal, 1Corinthians 15:50-55.

What John Wesley, Charles Wesley, John Fletcher of the 18th century in whom founded the "Holiness movement" that you follow in their doctrines on sinless perfection do not teach that sanctification is a process and does not happen all at once.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

He that has begun a good work continues to work in us as sanctification is a process unto holiness that we will not willingly sin, but yet not made perfect until Christ returns'

I'm glad you know the scriptures on how we should live our lives.

 

[Hopeful]

There are no wicked and evil Christians that are Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

I agree.

 

[Hopeful]

You only post 1Timothy 6:3 to try and prove your point, but you need the full context of what is being taught in these verses as they are about false teachers and true contentment. When you rail on others saying they are not really Spiritually born again if they sin, this is a sin found within you according to the highlighted scriptures below.

1Tim 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
1Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Tim 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strife of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Tim 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Tim 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

Are you advising me to "withdraw myself"?

 

[JLB]

Sorry, but I can't reply.
I have been warned by the staff here not to talk about obeying God perfectly anymore.

Actually that is a lie, the very thing you claim that you do not do.


What you were actually told by staff was these two things:


If I see you post or insinuate that a Christian who sins was never really saved to begin with.

Or

At water baptism we literally die physically and are literally resurrected from the dead and are given a sinless physical body… I will remove you from that thread.



Here is my post again, for all to see, with the scriptures that validate why.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

• if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This scripture is irrefutable concerning our (Christian) sin verses the whole world (non Christian).



“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


Jesus teaches about one brother in Christ who sins against another brother in Christ.


Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4




Hopeful

Consider this a warning to you.


If I see you post or insinuate that a Christian who sins was never really saved to begin with.

Or

At water baptism we literally die physically and are literally resurrected from the dead and are given a sinless physical body… I will remove you from that thread.


If you do it again, then you will be removed for 30 days.

If you do it a third time, you will permanently lose your privileges here.



I and other members of staff have tried to work with you in this matter, but you refuse to cooperate. I believe some of the things you post are great, however we will no longer tolerate you posting those two areas of your “sinless perfection” doctrine.


We love you and desire that you stay here.


Please consider abiding by this request.





JLB

JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Actually that is a lie, the very thing you claim that you do not do.

I wasn't aware I needed to "quote" the post.
I gave the essence of it.

 

[D-D-W]

All sin is willful.

Not really. Especially if you look at the words used in both Testaments for sin. They are archery terms meaning to shoot at your target but miss the bulls eye. (or "mark") That is not willful; It is accidental.

I suspect that in old English the word "sin" (coming from the Latin sine meaning "without") was used similarly, but eventually that meaning was edged out by the theological usage.

In the Hebrew scriptures there are Transgressions, Sins and Iniquities. They are all distinct but related.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not really. Especially if you look at the words used in both Testaments for sin. They are archery terms meaning to shoot at your target but miss the bulls eye. (or "mark") That is not willful; It is accidental.

I suspect that in old English the word "sin" (coming from the Latin sine meaning "without") was used similarly, but eventually that meaning was edged out by the theological usage.

In the Hebrew scriptures there are Transgressions, Sins and Iniquities. They are all distinct but related.

I had a thread on this....
Don't know if I can find it...

 

[GodsGrace]

Not really. Especially if you look at the words used in both Testaments for sin. They are archery terms meaning to shoot at your target but miss the bulls eye. (or "mark") That is not willful; It is accidental.

I suspect that in old English the word "sin" (coming from the Latin sine meaning "without") was used similarly, but eventually that meaning was edged out by the theological usage.

In the Hebrew scriptures there are Transgressions, Sins and Iniquities. They are all distinct but related.

Found it !
Care to take a look and tell me what you think?

Bible Study - Sin, Transgression, Iniquity

Exodus 34:6-7 The Lord said to Moses. 6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth; 7who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin...

christianforums.net

 

[D-D-W]

Found it !
Care to take a look and tell me what you think?

Bible Study - Sin, Transgression, Iniquity

Exodus 34:6-7 The Lord said to Moses. 6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth; 7who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin...

christianforums.net

I read your OP. No time for the following discussion.

Not bad. I would have focused more on chatah, the Hebrew word for sin; but that is my being a Messianic. The meaning is the same: to miss the mark, to shoot the arrow but fail to hit your target.

I also would have put more on the trans-generational aspect of iniquity.