Traditions of Man

[Blazin Bones]

In Reply to francis, I will go portion by portion.

Papal Infallibility may in this era be taught as simply in terms of doctrine, but as confirmed by the site http://www.ccel.org Papal infallibility along with Papal Absolutism has extended as far as issues of morality and discipline.

Paul may not have been addressing an issue of doctrine, but he was addressing an issue of Discipline and morality. So, either Peter was infallible in his conduct or he wasn't. But if he wasn't then past interpretations of Papal infallibility wee wrong. However, if one Pope thpught it was right, then the simple fact that it has changed proves their infallibility false.

As for Sola Fide, I agree with Waitin that James does not say faith with works saves, but rather that faith without works is dead. Paul, to the contrary of Roman catholic doctrine states in Ephesians 2 that salvation does not come by works but by Faith through grace. The passage in james is more useful in issues of Apostasy than contradicting Sola Fide.

 

[francisdesales]

Actually, I don't really want to discuss

Then don't post a reply.

 

[francisdesales]

Did Jesus denounce and not follow the traditions created by the Pharisees in their commentaries?
Why?

Jesus followed many "traditions".

He only pointed out the "traditions of men that overturned the Word of God".

For example, Jesus points out the idea of "Korban". It circumvented the Word of God - the honoring of the mother and father. Any sort of traditions that circumvent or avoid the Word of God are to be put aside. Christmas and Easter do not fall into this category. Is inculturation of the pagan society to a Christian one circumventing God's Word??? Taking pagan festivals and injecting a Christian meaning to them is NOT something that bypasses God's Word.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Blazin Bones wrote:
So we then return to the fact that many of the traditions of the RCC are man made, such as papal infallibility. Paul himself in Romans 3:23 says that "All sin," and yet once the pope is elected as pope, by mere men themselves at that, he suddenly becomes infallible? Where exactly is that in Scripture?

The first member that can answer that gets a jelly bean :wink:

TOB,

The doctrine of papal infallibility can be derived from Scriptures. Or is the Holy Spirit no longer guiding the Church? Can you please let me know where the Scriptures says that the Spirit has abandoned the Church when teaching the Gospel?

I will repeat myself yet again, infallibility does not infer sinlessness.

You may disagree with the first statement, but at least you now know that there is a difference between infallibility and indefectability. The Pope is not indefectable.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Papal Infallibility may in this era be taught as simply in terms of doctrine, but as confirmed by the site http://www.ccel.org Papal infallibility along with Papal Absolutism has extended as far as issues of morality and discipline.

I will disagree. Discipline doess not fall under infallible declarations made by the Church.

Paul may not have been addressing an issue of doctrine, but he was addressing an issue of Discipline and morality. So, either Peter was infallible in his conduct or he wasn't.

He wasn't. Nor does the Church make the claim that the Pope is indefectable, sinless or infallible in conduct. All men sin. Does that mean that Paul could not claim that even an angel of light could not teach another Gospel? Clearly, God ensures that His people have access to the Truth. Now, whether men make poor decisions of administration or discipline does not affect the teaching of the Gospel to the flock.

Please reconsider what the Catholic Church means when it says the Pope OR the Bishops in union with him at Ecumenical Councils are infallible when making doctrinal definitions for the purpose of the entire Church. It has nothing to do whether Joan of Arc was mistakenly burnt, or whether the Pope shouldn't have bet on the Patriots. We believe we are to "take it to the Church" (cf Mat 18:16-17) when Christians disagree. This "Church" is guided by the Spirit, so it follows that this Church at some point and manner must be infallible. Even an angel of light could not dispute the Church.

As for Sola Fide, I agree with Waitin that James does not say faith with works saves, but rather that faith without works is dead.

A dead faith is still faith, as the last verse of James 2 states. Dead faith cannot save, thus a faith alone cannot save. Only faith expressed by works can save. Faith ALONE cannot and WILL NOT save anyone...Can James be any more clear? Even Paul says this in 1 Cor 13 and Gal 5, among other places.

But this is not on topic. I mention it because it is explicitly denied by Scriptures and any attempt to change the Word of God on such a black and white matter IS INDEED a "Tradition of men" as I have defined - a circumvention of God's Word. Saying one can be saved by faith without any works is circumventing God's Word.

Now, if you would like to argue that, you may want to start another thread. But I doubt you'll be able to tell me anything I haven't already heard and refuted before.

Paul, to the contrary of Roman catholic doctrine states in Ephesians 2 that salvation does not come by works but by Faith through grace. The passage in james is more useful in issues of Apostasy than contradicting Sola Fide.

A wonderful invention, since James NEVER mentions apostasy. I don't think you are aware of Catholic doctrine on the teaching of salvation if you think we are saved by our OWN good works... Ephesians 2 is speaking about works of the Law, things that separate Jews from Gentiles. Those works of the law cannot save. Ephesians 2:10 tells us we were made to do good works. Faith AND good works are gifts from God! Do you think you will be saved without good works willed within us from God?

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

an exerpt from
Scripture and Tradition
a Catholic Answers tract
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scriptu ... dition.asp

Protestants claim the Bible is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it. In the Protestant view, the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrongâ€â€and may well hinder one in coming to God.

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"â€â€as expressed in the Bible itselfâ€â€is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.

In the Second Vatican Council’s document on divine revelation, Dei Verbum (Latin: "The Word of God"), the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: "Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

"Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence."

But Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants, who place their confidence in Martin Luther’s theory of sola scriptura (Latin: "Scripture alone"), will usually argue for their position by citing a couple of key verses. The first is this: "These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31). The other is this: "All Scripture is
inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be equipped, prepared for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16–17). According to these Protestants, these verses demonstrate the reality of sola scriptura (the "Bible only" theory).

Not so, reply Catholics. First, the verse from John refers to the things written in that book (read it with John 20:30, the verse immediately before it to see the context of the statement in question). If this verse proved anything, it would not prove the theory of sola scriptura but that the Gospel of John is sufficient.

Second, the verse from John’s Gospel tells us only that the Bible was composed so we can be helped to believe Jesus is the Messiah. It does not say the Bible is all we need for salvation, much less that the Bible is all we need for theology; nor does it say the Bible is even necessary to believe in Christ. After all, the earliest Christians had no New Testament to which they could appeal; they learned from oral, rather than written, instruction. Until relatively recent times, the Bible was inaccessible to most people, either because they could not read or because the printing press had not been invented. All these people learned from oral instruction, passed down, generation to generation, by the Church.

Much the same can be said about 2 Timothy 3:16-17. To say that all inspired writing "has its uses" is one thing; to say that only inspired writing need be followed is something else. Besides, there is a telling argument against claims of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants. John Henry Newman explained it in an 1884 essay entitled "Inspiration in its Relation to Revelation."

Please read the rest here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scriptu ... dition.asp

 

[Blazin Bones]

Francis, the entire disagreement on Sola Fide comes down to one very simple portion of your last post.

Faith AND good works are gifts from God!

In that very notion, you and I agree. However it's how we view this idea which causes the split between Catholic view of faith and works, and the protestant view of Faith Alone. In your opinion, it is perfectly acceptable for the good works of God to be separate from the faith given from God that saves. In Protestant opinion, The only way to do any work that is deemed good by God, is to first be alive in the faith of salvation.

Would you not agree that no matter how good a deed a person does, if they do not have the faith that Christ is their only means of Salvation, then God cannot accept that person as saved?

As for the James Passage about Faith without works being dead and it's POSSIBLE relationship to Apostasy, Please look in Bible study for a discussion I will start if you are interested in further discussion on the issue.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Francis, the entire disagreement on Sola Fide comes down to one very simple portion of your last post.

Faith AND good works are gifts from God!

In that very notion, you and I agree. However it's how we view this idea which causes the split between Catholic view of faith and works, and the protestant view of Faith Alone. In your opinion, it is perfectly acceptable for the good works of God to be separate from the faith given from God that saves.....

But there's one ingredient I think you are missing: We do not believe that salvation or justification are one time events: They are an ongoing process. That is why works, done in love by God's grace, play an integral part.

You may find this link informative:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp

 

[turnorburn]

But there's one ingredient I think you are missing: We do not believe that salvation or justification are one time events: They are an ongoing process. That is why works, done in love by God's grace, play an integral part. This is what you said CC below is what Gods holy word says, where do you get your information from those links? me, I use the bible, try it you'll like it. :-D

[Then you don't belive this and if that's the case your toast]
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well Turn, maybe we should get back on topic: Tradition.

Tell me, are there any traditions you observe that are good? Like maybe a Bible study on a certain night, or something like that?

 

[francisdesales]

Faith AND good works are gifts from God!

In that very notion, you and I agree. However it's how we view this idea which causes the split between Catholic view of faith and works, and the protestant view of Faith Alone. In your opinion, it is perfectly acceptable for the good works of God to be separate from the faith given from God that saves. In Protestant opinion, The only way to do any work that is deemed good by God, is to first be alive in the faith of salvation.

My friend, I again detect that you do not know what Catholics ACTUALLY believe. Perhaps your pastor told you something different, but the Catechism is in the public domain, and you are free to read it if you desire to learn what WE believe. Consult CCC #1987-2005 on Justification and Grace. Or, read this from CCC #1889

Without the help of grace, men would not know how "to discern the often narrow path between the cowardice which gives in to evil, and the violence which under the illusion of fighting evil only makes it worse".

The problem I see regarding your point of view is that it doesn't take into account the Biblical reality of synergy. Thus, you think it is either God doing everything or me doing everything. If I mention "work", you automatically think it is all me and nothing from God. This is a huge mistake.

Would you not agree that no matter how good a deed a person does, if they do not have the faith that Christ is their only means of Salvation, then God cannot accept that person as saved?

We cannot do any good work pleasing to God without faith, because only by faith can we please God. However, that does not in any way make faith alone a true belief. We also must DO the work of God. Having a dead faith, which is STILL faith, according to James, is not salvific. Thus, faith alone is a false teaching, a teaching of man, a tradition of Protestantism that leads the People of God astray. Without good works moved within us by God AND our free will response to do them, our faith is dead. James clearly points that out in James 2, if you open you mind to the possibility that Luther was not infallible and that the Church believed something else for 1500 years...

[

As for the James Passage about Faith without works being dead and it's POSSIBLE relationship to Apostasy, Please look in Bible study for a discussion I will start if you are interested in further discussion on the issue.

Possible? LOL! James is speaking to Christians who are part of the community, the ones who give the rich places of honor during the Eucharist and other such practical realities of every day life. He isn't talking about or to people who have left!!!!

James is chastising the imperfect Christian who is still torn between the ways of God and the ways of the world. He says that one must not merely believe in God's existence - even the devil does that. He talks about people whose faith were shown by their works. And several times he mentions that faith without works is dead.

You can't get any clearer than that. It was so clear that Luther desperately tried to remove James from the NT canon. Yours is just a more subtle attempt by twisting the meaning of James and pretend James 2 is talking about something else when it clearly says "Faith without works is dead". Apostasy??? Please. THIS is a tradition of men that moves people away from God's Word... It totally ignores the teachings of Jesus Christ. No thanks.

Regards

 

[Blazin Bones]

Francis, your posts read as if I am a fool or an idiot to be a protestant. This is not the debate forum, nor will such strong attitudes win me to the catholic view of the relationship between faith and works. You may be a student of theology, but so am I. I in fact finish my degree next month. I will not debate in this forum, so please do not post in such a manner.

Your first objection is that I deny a synergy between the work of God and the work of man. However, when you read my post I say something that is quite the opposite.

The only way to do any work that is deemed good by God, is to first be alive in the faith of salvation.

Faith comes from God, does it not? Faith is lived by man, is it not? Good works that are seen as pleasing come by faith through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, do they not? For the Holy Spirit to be indwelling a person, they must be made alive again through a faith in christ, which is given by God, right? That is exactly what I said in that last sentence of my posts and that shows i accept the existence of a synergy between God and Man. The first portion of your post is based on a false assumption. (We both know how we get assumptions, right?)

Now, back to Faith alone and Faith and Works. For the sake of other users in reading this thread, I'm going to be brief. Please don't assume that this means I don't understand where you are coming from.

We cannot do any good work pleasing to God without faith, because only by faith can we please God. However, that does not in any way make faith alone a true belief. We also must DO the work of God. Having a dead faith, which is STILL faith, according to James, is not salvific.

You and I agree that without faith, no man may do any work that is seen as pleasing to God. That is made clear by Hebrews 11:6. The only issue between us is a matter of prespective. If I am reading your words correctly, You and Catholics like you, believe that Faith compells man to do good works that please God, and thus make ones faith Alive and Salvific. The protestant prospective is not as horribly different as you would think. We believe that Faith that is alive will compell a man to work. We differ from the catholic view in that we believe true faith is a faith that allows the Holy Spirit to live inside a man and that the Holy Spirit guides a man with true, living faith to do these good works.

We both believe it is God which compells us to work through faith. The major difference is that Catholic faith believes that Faith is sustained by Good works. Protestant believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit is evidence of true faith, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit compels these works which show the faith of a man to be alive and likewise Good works show that the Holy Spirit, God is pleased to dwell in that man. In both doctrines, the faith comes first. However, we disagree on how that faith is proved to be alive. Nonetheless, without Faith, no man can be saved.

As for Apostacy, again, there is a thread in Bible Study for this discussion. If you would like to see me explain why I see a possible relationship, then ask me there. To clarify, I do not believe in apostacy, but I do look for passage that may or may not relate to it.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Francis, your posts read as if I am a fool or an idiot to be a protestant......

I can assure you: The Catholic Church accepts protestants as brothers in Christ. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

CCC 818 . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.....

CCC 819 ....many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace.....

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

 

[Imagican]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm[/url][/quote:d68a9]

While your 'Catechism' may state such, the beliefs of many that follow this faith would indicate differently. I believe that if the entire 'Catechism' were offered, I would fall short of this statement above in 'some' way. That the statements of 'faith' offered BY the CC would insist that 'i' am NOT a 'true' Christian. I don't want to get into specifics, (most that know me know to what I refer), but the statement above is like many other 'beliefs' that many adhere to: often individual lines taken 'out of context' in order to prove a particular 'pet point' of one's beliefs.

For instance, what would the CC's stance be on 'others' that denied their faith outright? Not attempting to 'start a debate' on this subject, just offering a point in that the words offered above are restrictive in ways not offered in the words themselves. For they are but a PART of a Catechism that has 'other parts' that would extablish the MEANING behind the words used above in a way that WOULD eliminate MANY that fall UNDER that actual words themselves.

But it is good to know that 'others' besides Catholics WILL be saved by the 'grace of God'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[turnorburn]

And how does one get saved, sounds rudimentary doesn't it,
makes for some good discussion don't you think :smt045

 

[francisdesales]

Francis, your posts read as if I am a fool or an idiot to be a protestant. This is not the debate forum, nor will such strong attitudes win me to the catholic view of the relationship between faith and works. You may be a student of theology, but so am I. I in fact finish my degree next month. I will not debate in this forum, so please do not post in such a manner.

My intent was not to "make you look like an idiot". When people tell me what Catholics believe - and are quite wrong - I have every right to correct them. That's why I remain here. Not to convert you. Judge whether to be a Catholic or not based on what we believe, not some strawman set up by pastor Bob. Our beliefs are public and are readily accessible. If you choose to discuss what we believe, please at least refrain from such blatant errors like...

"In your opinion, it is perfectly acceptable for the good works of God to be separate from the faith given from God that saves."

Both faith and works come from God. They are not separate, as if I do one and God does the other.

Such nonsense will not do...

Now, as a further reminder, this IS an apologetic forum. It IS a "debate" forum in the sense that people DO chime in and "apologize" their own particular beliefs. I do not accuse anyone here of being an idiot for being Protestant - that's their perogative. But when someone tells me my opinion - and is way off base - well, I am going to "apologize" until you know what we believe. Then judge for yourself. We Catholics are not pushy on such matters.

Congratulations on your upcoming completion of your classes.

Your first objection is that I deny a synergy between the work of God and the work of man. However, when you read my post I say something that is quite the opposite.

The only way to do any work that is deemed good by God, is to first be alive in the faith of salvation.

That is not an example of synergy. Nowhere do you discuss cooperation, which is the definition of synergy.

Faith comes from God, does it not? Faith is lived by man, is it not? Good works that are seen as pleasing come by faith through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, do they not?

Yes. Yes. No. Works comes from God, faith comes from God. Repentance comes from God. All good gifts come from God. Faith is not some force, like a conveyor belt that automatically sets in motion the "works" that are produced. God moves within us the desire and good will to do good works. Faith doesn't do that. God doesn't give us faith and then sit back while we, like an automaton, produce good works. The new man who has been transformed inside after receiving the Spirit desires to follow the inner movements of the Spirit - and thus, synergy, that great mystery in which God's initiative sets in motion man's response that manifests God's work within us. The Spirit moves us to good works, not faith.

For the Holy Spirit to be indwelling a person, they must be made alive again through a faith in christ, which is given by God, right?

Yes

That is exactly what I said in that last sentence of my posts and that shows i accept the existence of a synergy between God and Man. The first portion of your post is based on a false assumption. (We both know how we get assumptions, right?)

Again, you have not shown that - or maybe I am missing it. You speak of the indwelling of the Spirit, but you say nothing about the response of man. For all I know, this is the same ol' "God does everything, man does nothing". Just as Luther said - "Man is a beast, ridden by God or by Satan"... While this may not be your intent, you have not distanced yourself from that stance with your posts.

You and I agree that without faith, no man may do any work that is seen as pleasing to God. That is made clear by Hebrews 11:6. The only issue between us is a matter of prespective. If I am reading your words correctly, You and Catholics like you, believe that Faith compells man to do good works that please God, and thus make ones faith Alive and Salvific.

Faith doesn't compel me. God does.

Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always hearkened, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own saving health with fear and trembling. For it is God (not faith) who works in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13

Note the useage of synergy. Note, I am working out my salvation, but it is God moving my will and desire. I am not lifeless or without freedom, as I can grieve the Holy Spirit. Clearly, I MUST have this movement or desire within my will to do good. And BY FAITH, I come to believe that GOD HIMSELF IS INDEED MOVING ME. Faith doesn't move me. God does, and my faith tells me. Because I don't see an aparition, nor do voices from heaven come down and say "Joe, Joe, you must be kind to your wife"... Everyday, I am given the opportunity to choose to obey what, by faith, I CALL GOD'S SPIRIT. But I KNOW this is God BECAUSE of faith. Faith itself, though, doesn't move me. God does.

All gifts come from God. Whether it is faith or love. Thus, one is NOT saved by faith alone. Faith enables me to believe that God DOES move my will, know that I am being transformed, know that the Spirit of God indwells me. And thus, I am open to my desires given to me by God to do meritorious actions in Christ. So now it is not me doing good works, it is Christ and I. Synergy.

Faith alone does not save, because faith IS NOT giving a glass of water to my neighbor. Faith is NOT turning the other cheek when someone offends me. Faith is NOT praying for my enemy. Faith is the "knowledge" that God indeed has sent His only Son to die for my sins and that He has now sent the Advocate for me to HELP me to do God's Will here in the 21st century.

The protestant prospective is not as horribly different as you would think. We believe that Faith that is alive will compell a man to work. We differ from the catholic view in that we believe true faith is a faith that allows the Holy Spirit to live inside a man and that the Holy Spirit guides a man with true, living faith to do these good works.

Again, the Scriptures tell us that God compels us. Faith is not the Holy Spirit. Faith is not a force that moves us, beyond some sort of motivation. Jesus said that without Me, you can do nothing good. He didn't say "I'll give you faith, and faith will generate good works".

Secondly, read the last sentence of James 2...

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Note, a dead faith REMAINS faith. Faith by itself, unquantified, CANNOT save. A dead faith, a faith that is lifeless, without works, is NOT salvific. Thus, faith ALONE cannot save. It is dead. Does Paul say anything different here?

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1 Cor 13:2

Paul says one can have ALL THE FAITH IN THE WORLD. And it is NOTHING. WITHOUT LOVE. Thus, Paul also says that Faith alone cannot save. Having ALL THE FAITH IS NOTHING.

Clearly, Sola Fide is a false gospel. It leads one to think that if they believe "on" Jesus, they will be saved. Paul says all THAT sort of faith is NOTHING. I presume that "nothing" means "cannot save". Would you agree? Thus, we have faith alone as being dead, said by Paul, as well.

In both doctrines, the faith comes first. However, we disagree on how that faith is proved to be alive. Nonetheless, without Faith, no man can be saved.

That is not the doctrine of "sola fide". Of course we cannot be saved without faith. Because I say "we are saved by faith and love", which is quite similar to what Paul tells the Galatians in 5:6, that does not exclude faith. We hold to BOTH being necessary. Without love, we are not saved, because it is merely dead faith. And dead faith cannot save. Faith ALONE cannot save. But yet, this "faith alone saves" is a corner stone of Protestantism...

As for Apostacy, again, there is a thread in Bible Study for this discussion. If you would like to see me explain why I see a possible relationship, then ask me there. To clarify, I do not believe in apostacy, but I do look for passage that may or may not relate to it.[/color]

[/quote][/quote]

I see this as a desperate attempt to introduce smoke and mirrors away from the very clear teachings of James. FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. Since this contradicts Luther's grand scheme, and Protesatants wish to remain faithful to his gospel, they must contrive various assundry devices to direct their adherents' attention away from such very clear writings.

I apologize if I sound jaded or frustrated, but I have had this conversation so many times, and at the end of the day, despite the best logical arguments, you or any other "sola fideist" will continue to believe the same thing without blinking an eye on the simple obvious Scripture verses that show "faith without works is dead". I stand by my contention that sola fide is a tradition of men, as it is so often refuted, even EXPLICITLY in Scriptures. But admitting that would be a virtual admittance that the Reformation went too far, went beyond what the Word of God teaches.

My primary purpose writing this was to refute your "opinion" of what you THINK is my opinion. I will explain my point of view and you are free to agree with it or not.

Regards

 

[waitinontheLamb]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm[/url][/quote:90c99]So then your current pope was wrong in saying that there is no salvation outside of the RCC, right?


And I thought our faith was in Jesus, not in baptism. Nobody is justified through baptism.

 

[francisdesales]

So then your current pope was wrong in saying that there is no salvation outside of the RCC, right?

Vatican 2 described how other Christian communities are imperfectly united TO the Catholic Church, and as such, individuals MAY INDEED be Catholic in as far as they receive salvation and are saved.

And I thought our faith was in Jesus, not in baptism. Nobody is justified through baptism.

Baptism immerses us into the Paschal Mystery, into Christ.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. Romans 6:3-5

Christ's glorious works are applied to us THROUGH the sacrament of Baptism. It is how we become part of the Body of Christ. We are all justified as a result of being immersed into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, are we not?

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm[/url]

While your 'Catechism' may state such, the beliefs of many that follow this faith would indicate differently. I believe that if the entire 'Catechism' were offered, I would fall short of this statement above in 'some' way. ....[/quote:8e0a5]
Thats okay. If the entire Bible were followed, we'd ALL fall short, my friend.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

So then your current pope was wrong in saying that there is no salvation outside of the RCC, right? And I thought our faith was in Jesus, not in baptism. Nobody is justified through baptism.

He was not wrong. He did not say "RCC", but rather, "Catholic Church". And he was right, for whether you know it or not, YOU are part of the Catholic Church. You are merely not in full communion. There is only one Body of Christ. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the pope is the shepherd of Christs flock, and he prays for you every day, as do I at Mass. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the Blessed Virgin and the saints pray for you constantly.

We are all part of the family of God.