Traditions of Man

[mutzrein]

So then your current pope was wrong in saying that there is no salvation outside of the RCC, right? And I thought our faith was in Jesus, not in baptism. Nobody is justified through baptism.

He was not wrong. He did not say "RCC", but rather, "Catholic Church". And he was right, for whether you know it or not, YOU are part of the Catholic Church. You are merely not in full communion. There is only one Body of Christ. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the pope is the shepherd of Christs flock, and he prays for you every day, as do I at Mass. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the Blessed Virgin and the saints pray for you constantly.

We are all part of the family of God.

The religious order of Jesus' day also believed they were of the family of God but Jesus told many of them that they had a different father.

If this is still the case today (and I believe it is) then we are NOT all part of the family of God.

 

[francisdesales]

So then your current pope was wrong in saying that there is no salvation outside of the RCC, right? And I thought our faith was in Jesus, not in baptism. Nobody is justified through baptism.

He was not wrong. He did not say "RCC", but rather, "Catholic Church". And he was right, for whether you know it or not, YOU are part of the Catholic Church. You are merely not in full communion. There is only one Body of Christ. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the pope is the shepherd of Christs flock, and he prays for you every day, as do I at Mass. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the Blessed Virgin and the saints pray for you constantly.

We are all part of the family of God.

The religious order of Jesus' day also believed they were of the family of God but Jesus told many of them that they had a different father.

If this is still the case today (and I believe it is) then we are NOT all part of the family of God.

Individually, Jesus did say some were not the descendants of Abraham. But as an organization or coummunity, only the Church, the People of God as an entity, was considered saved by God. Individually, Catholics or Protestants may indeed have a different "father", a different guiding principle that leads them to sin or to have faith working in love. Vatican 2 does not make a distinguishment at the individual level, but rather, at the organizational. Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith - but this doesn't mean that all Catholics are going to heaven...

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

He was not wrong. He did not say "RCC", but rather, "Catholic Church". And he was right, for whether you know it or not, YOU are part of the Catholic Church. You are merely not in full communion. There is only one Body of Christ. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the pope is the shepherd of Christs flock, and he prays for you every day, as do I at Mass. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the Blessed Virgin and the saints pray for you constantly.
We are all part of the family of God.

The religious order of Jesus' day also believed they were of the family of God but Jesus told many of them that they had a different father.
If this is still the case today (and I believe it is) then we are NOT all part of the family of God.

Well, this is why it is so important to understand how the Hebrews understood "covenant". A Covenant is an entrance into a family: an exchange of persons. When an ancient Hebrew brought an outsider into their family, they established a covenant, which would entail swearing an oath, a sign, and sharing a sacred meal.

God's plan of salvation from the very beginning was to bring more and more people back into His family. This was done by six covenants:

Adamic (the covenant God made with Adam),
Noahite (the covenant God made with Noah),
Abrahamic (the covenant God made with Abraham),
Mosaic (the covenant God made with Moses),
Davidic (the covenant God made with David),
and the New (the covenant God in the person of Jesus made with the world)

Each successive covenant encompasses a larger and larger group of people: Two, then a family, a nation, a kindom, then on and on up to the whole wolrld with Jesus' covenant. Each successive covenant has a different sign, such as Noah's rainbow, then on to circumcision, etc.

This is Gods plan, from the very beginning, of bringing more and more of the world back into his family. So the Jews were pqart of Gods family, whether through the Abrahamic, Mosaic, or Davidic covenant

(As Catholics, we do the same: We swear an oath - the Latin word for oath being "sacramentum" (sacrament), share the meal (the Eucharist) and the sign of the covenant is baptism.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Franics, Let's start with the synergy and go from there.

I thought the notion of synergy would be assumed. If the Holy Spirit moves us to work, as your post said, and I last post said, the man will still be the physical object performing the tasks. This is cooperation in your opinion and obediecne to the Spirit in mine. Still, the synergy is there because the human would not obey the spirit if it was not cooperating and following the lead of the Spirit. Does this solve our difference in Synergy?

No back to Sola Fide. In my last post I stated and you leter quoted that The Holy Spirit indwells a man after they come to a Salvific, alive faith in Christ's death and ressurections. You agreed. So if faith allows the spirit to dwell in a man, and the Spirit then compells the good works that a man does to please God, is it not the Faith that is the initiator of the process?

Is there any other thing besides God's gift of faith that initiates this change in a man's life that leads to salvation?

If faith is the only thing that can begin this chain of events, then Sola Fide is indeed correct. Faith alone initiates the salvific in dwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Spirt then compells the good works which please God. This is the protestant Sola Fide, anything else is not a correct understanding of this Doctrine.

There is then the matter of dead faith and living faith. James makes it clear that faith that does not work is dead. In what I have learned, a dead faith, is not a true faith. Dead faith sannot save, because it is dead, as you have said. However, if this faith true, living faith, the this faith will lead to life. It is only a true lving faith, given by God, that will lead to ones Salvation.

There may be many misunderstandings and misreadings that lead to our mutual confussion with the others post, but this is what I've been saying the whole time. One assumption we should imediately make is that we are talking to a fellow follower of Christ, who understands the uniqueness of being made alive in Christ through the Spirit, and that if we do not start with a faith in the reality of Christ, then we could not have yet come to any living, salvific faith.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....Is there any other thing besides God's gift of faith that initiates this change in a man's life that leads to salvation? .....

Here is the definitive answer to your question:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm#I

 

[waitinontheLamb]

So then your current pope was wrong in saying that there is no salvation outside of the RCC, right? And I thought our faith was in Jesus, not in baptism. Nobody is justified through baptism.

He was not wrong. He did not say "RCC", but rather, "Catholic Church". And he was right, for whether you know it or not, YOU are part of the Catholic Church. You are merely not in full communion. There is only one Body of Christ. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the pope is the shepherd of Christs flock, and he prays for you every day, as do I at Mass. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the Blessed Virgin and the saints pray for you constantly.

We are all part of the family of God.

On one hand I want to say thank you for the prayers but on the other I feel so bad for the delusion.

Mary nor any passed saints pray for me. They are in Heaven with God. They worship Him night and day. Mary is worshiping her Savior.

And the pope has no part of me. He is not a shepherd to me nor will he ever be. The mass is, imo, a heresy and nothing that comes from it can or ever will do anything for me.

My fellowship is with Christ and I come directly to Him. There is no "vicar" present nor is there one needed. I have the full revelation of God to find His will for me. I have direct access to Him and I need nothing else.

One day I will kneel next to Mary and we two will share in our common background of redeemed sinners and revel for eternity in the One who came to save us from death. Until then I will trust in God alone and find Him in His Word.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

He was not wrong. He did not say "RCC", but rather, "Catholic Church". And he was right, for whether you know it or not, YOU are part of the Catholic Church. You are merely not in full communion. There is only one Body of Christ. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the pope is the shepherd of Christs flock, and he prays for you every day, as do I at Mass. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, the Blessed Virgin and the saints pray for you constantly.

We are all part of the family of God.

On one hand I want to say thank you for the prayers but on the other I feel so bad for the delusion.... ..the pope has no part of me.....

Thansk for the post. Its posts like yours that continue to remind me that I'm in the right place.

 

[francisdesales]

I thought the notion of synergy would be assumed. If the Holy Spirit moves us to work, as your post said, and I last post said, the man will still be the physical object performing the tasks.

That can mean just what Luther said... "Man is a beast ridden by God or Satan". In other words, man has no free will. According to such a mindset, man is a "robot". That is not synergy. God has given man a wonderful gift. He has made us in His image, giving us free will. Now, without God's aid, we cannot choose the good. But that doesn't mean we cannot say "yes" to God's will when He comes to us. The seed is not the only thing that brings forth the fruit. The soil is also a factor, if you recall the parable of the sower and the seed.

Thus, I continue to wonder about what YOU mean by synergy and whether you are using the word as a Mormon would use the word "Trinity"...

This is cooperation in your opinion and obediecne to the Spirit in mine. Still, the synergy is there because the human would not obey the spirit if it was not cooperating and following the lead of the Spirit. Does this solve our difference in Synergy?

Again, see above. Obedience to the Spirit is also from man. The Bible clearly tells us that man is responsible for obeying and disobeying God. Thus, we believe God moves within us the desire to obey - BUT, in the end, we can allow that grace to fall unused. God can but does not force Himself upon us and make us obey His will. His Plan will be done, considering He sees all time as one moment and already knows how we will respond.

No back to Sola Fide. In my last post I stated and you leter quoted that The Holy Spirit indwells a man after they come to a Salvific, alive faith in Christ's death and ressurections. You agreed. So if faith allows the spirit to dwell in a man, and the Spirit then compells the good works that a man does to please God, is it not the Faith that is the initiator of the process?

No. Faith ITSELF is not an "initiator". God is. I have already quoted you an example. It doesn't say that faith moves our will and desire to do God's will. It says GOD HIMSELF does that.

What is faith? What does the Bible call it?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1

It is not a "force". It is something hoped for - but unseen. In other words, it is God Himself indwelling within us. That is something we BELIEVE by faith. Not by scientific evidence. Our faith teaches us that God moves our will to obey Him. Not ourselves without Him. And when we do obey Him, it is because of the indwelling of the Spirt - again, a matter of faith. People are free to say "I decided. God didn't help me." The desire within us to obey the "unwritten law written upon our hearts" is a matter of faith.

And thus, one must have this attitude within us, developed from faith. One must have the humble attitude that it IS INDEED God moving our will. But again, it is God. Not faith that moves us. Remember, having all the faith in the world is meaningless, without Love. And who is Love? God is Love itself. Thus, without God, your faith is nothing because faith alone cannot save. Yet again, I am merely repeating what James said - while you are in denial of what James clearly says. Faith alone cannot save. Thus, sola fide is a false teaching.

Is there any other thing besides God's gift of faith that initiates this change in a man's life that leads to salvation?

Yea, God. Let's not forget that.

If faith is the only thing that can begin this chain of events, then Sola Fide is indeed correct. Faith alone initiates the salvific in dwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Spirt then compells the good works which please God. This is the protestant Sola Fide, anything else is not a correct understanding of this Doctrine.

Again, faith doesn't "begin" anything. God does. What is it with this "faith is a power"?

Faith is the belief that God exists and aids us. It is the belief that He will indeed (not faith itself) will provide for us. Faith doesn't provide for us. God does. Faith is a virtue that God instills within us - and without which, we cannot please God. Why? Because we must believe that God is indeed working within us - not ourselves. Faith is "knowing" that God is working in us.

The Spirit compels the good works - not faith. And the Spirit ALSO gives faith to us. He ALSO gives us the desire to repent. Faith is one of many gifts. Faith is not the only gift from God. It is NOT alone. If it was, we would not be saved, because a faith alone - without works - is dead. A dead faith cannot save. Or do you continue to push you unbiblical doctrine upon me?

There is then the matter of dead faith and living faith. James makes it clear that faith that does not work is dead. In what I have learned, a dead faith, is not a true faith. Dead faith sannot save, because it is dead, as you have said. However, if this faith true, living faith, the this faith will lead to life. It is only a true lving faith, given by God, that will lead to ones Salvation.

Yes, faith that does not work is dead and cannot save. Yet, it is still called faith. Do you actually read my posts? I have already addressed this twice and even quoted you the last verse of James 2 that states that. A dead body is STILL a dead body, and a dead faith is STILL faith. The devil ALSO has faith. But will this faith alone save him too????

Faith must be qualified, which means that faith alone does not save. Love MUST exist with faith, otherwise, it is dead. Faith alone does not save. Even all the faith in the world cannot save, if it doesn't have something else with it. Love. Thus, faith without love, alone, is DEAD.

Any attempt to steer around such clear Scriptural readings is just more adherence to a false gospel.

Regards

 

[Blazin Bones]

Francis, you and I continue to misread the words of the other. This is getting pointless. You think I'm saying something I am not, and vice versa. Apparently, the two of us are so solid in our understanding of our doctrines we can grasp the language of the other. I'm just going to throw my hands up. I have not the time or energy to discuss if we are going to continue to look through each others posts with only the glasses of of particular denomination. It seems that there is more effort being given in finding error in the others presentation then seeing what is really there.

 

[francisdesales]

Francis, you and I continue to misread the words of the other. This is getting pointless. You think I'm saying something I am not, and vice versa. Apparently, the two of us are so solid in our understanding of our doctrines we can grasp the language of the other. I'm just going to throw my hands up. I have not the time or energy to discuss if we are going to continue to look through each others posts with only the glasses of of particular denomination. It seems that there is more effort being given in finding error in the others presentation then seeing what is really there.

Very well. I have presented my case and given Scriptures which you ignore. I haven't seen a valid explanation of synergy where God and man cooperate, as Scriptures note. And finally, I may suggest that you learn more about Catholicism before you give your thoughts on our opinions on the matter. I will take this as "Faith Alone" remains non-salvific. ALl the faith in the world is nothing without love. End of story.

Regards

 

[turnorburn]

Since when did old slew foot have faith?

I thought the notion of synergy would be assumed. If the Holy Spirit moves us to work, as your post said, and I last post said, the man will still be the physical object performing the tasks.

That can mean just what Luther said... "Man is a beast ridden by God or Satan". In other words, man has no free will. According to such a mindset, man is a "robot". That is not synergy. God has given man a wonderful gift. He has made us in His image, giving us free will. Now, without God's aid, we cannot choose the good. But that doesn't mean we cannot say "yes" to God's will when He comes to us. The seed is not the only thing that brings forth the fruit. The soil is also a factor, if you recall the parable of the sower and the seed.

Thus, I continue to wonder about what YOU mean by synergy and whether you are using the word as a Mormon would use the word "Trinity"...

[quote="Blazin Bones":3eeea]

This is cooperation in your opinion and obediecne to the Spirit in mine. Still, the synergy is there because the human would not obey the spirit if it was not cooperating and following the lead of the Spirit. Does this solve our difference in Synergy?

Again, see above. Obedience to the Spirit is also from man. The Bible clearly tells us that man is responsible for obeying and disobeying God. Thus, we believe God moves within us the desire to obey - BUT, in the end, we can allow that grace to fall unused. God can but does not force Himself upon us and make us obey His will. His Plan will be done, considering He sees all time as one moment and already knows how we will respond.

No back to Sola Fide. In my last post I stated and you leter quoted that The Holy Spirit indwells a man after they come to a Salvific, alive faith in Christ's death and ressurections. You agreed. So if faith allows the spirit to dwell in a man, and the Spirit then compells the good works that a man does to please God, is it not the Faith that is the initiator of the process?

No. Faith ITSELF is not an "initiator". God is. I have already quoted you an example. It doesn't say that faith moves our will and desire to do God's will. It says GOD HIMSELF does that.

What is faith? What does the Bible call it?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1

It is not a "force". It is something hoped for - but unseen. In other words, it is God Himself indwelling within us. That is something we BELIEVE by faith. Not by scientific evidence. Our faith teaches us that God moves our will to obey Him. Not ourselves without Him. And when we do obey Him, it is because of the indwelling of the Spirt - again, a matter of faith. People are free to say "I decided. God didn't help me." The desire within us to obey the "unwritten law written upon our hearts" is a matter of faith.

And thus, one must have this attitude within us, developed from faith. One must have the humble attitude that it IS INDEED God moving our will. But again, it is God. Not faith that moves us. Remember, having all the faith in the world is meaningless, without Love. And who is Love? God is Love itself. Thus, without God, your faith is nothing because faith alone cannot save. Yet again, I am merely repeating what James said - while you are in denial of what James clearly says. Faith alone cannot save. Thus, sola fide is a false teaching.

Is there any other thing besides God's gift of faith that initiates this change in a man's life that leads to salvation?

Yea, God. Let's not forget that.

If faith is the only thing that can begin this chain of events, then Sola Fide is indeed correct. Faith alone initiates the salvific in dwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Spirt then compells the good works which please God. This is the protestant Sola Fide, anything else is not a correct understanding of this Doctrine.

Again, faith doesn't "begin" anything. God does. What is it with this "faith is a power"?

Faith is the belief that God exists and aids us. It is the belief that He will indeed (not faith itself) will provide for us. Faith doesn't provide for us. God does. Faith is a virtue that God instills within us - and without which, we cannot please God. Why? Because we must believe that God is indeed working within us - not ourselves. Faith is "knowing" that God is working in us.

The Spirit compels the good works - not faith. And the Spirit ALSO gives faith to us. He ALSO gives us the desire to repent. Faith is one of many gifts. Faith is not the only gift from God. It is NOT alone. If it was, we would not be saved, because a faith alone - without works - is dead. A dead faith cannot save. Or do you continue to push you unbiblical doctrine upon me?

There is then the matter of dead faith and living faith. James makes it clear that faith that does not work is dead. In what I have learned, a dead faith, is not a true faith. Dead faith sannot save, because it is dead, as you have said. However, if this faith true, living faith, the this faith will lead to life. It is only a true lving faith, given by God, that will lead to ones Salvation.

Yes, faith that does not work is dead and cannot save. Yet, it is still called faith. Do you actually read my posts? I have already addressed this twice and even quoted you the last verse of James 2 that states that. A dead body is STILL a dead body, and a dead faith is STILL faith. The devil ALSO has faith. But will this faith alone save him too????

Faith must be qualified, which means that faith alone does not save. Love MUST exist with faith, otherwise, it is dead. Faith alone does not save. Even all the faith in the world cannot save, if it doesn't have something else with it. Love. Thus, faith without love, alone, is DEAD.

Any attempt to steer around such clear Scriptural readings is just more adherence to a false gospel.

Regards[/quote:3eeea]

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Francis, you and I continue to misread the words of the other....

LOL. The 500-year-old story goes on

 

[turnorburn]

I wonder how long I would last if I joined a catholic forum, before you start laughing how long would you say, an hour a day a week perhaps but how long. :microwave:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I wonder how long I would last if I joined a catholic forum, before you start laughing how long would you say, an hour a day a week perhaps but how long.

Go find out right here:
http://forums.catholic.com/
Actually, they are more tolerant of other views than this site is of Catholic views

 

[Blazin Bones]

Nope, nothings changed mutzrein, just no one had fixed the problem yet. Oh wait, I can do that now...

Four posts deleted, Keep it clean or the next time will be warnings and a thread locked.

 

[mutzrein]

Nope, nothings changed mutzrein, just no one had fixed the problem yet. Oh wait, I can do that now...

Four posts deleted, Keep it clean or the next time will be warnings and a thread locked.

:smt023

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....However, each passage cited contains nothing of these Apostolic Traditions you are promoting. So we then return to the fact that many of the traditions of the RCC are man made, such as papal infallibility. Paul himself in Romans 3:23 says that "All sin," and yet once the pope is elected as pope, by mere men themselves at that, he suddenly becomes infallible? Where exactly is that in Scripture?.....

Infallibility has nothing to do with sin. It has to do with God preventing someone from teaching error at a time of God's choosing: It is an act of God, not the ability of a man. Your Bible is infallible, right? But it was written by men who were sinners, right? Ergo, God has set the precedent: He can hold men infallible when he chooses, as he did with those who wrote the scriptures.

In the fourth century, the bishops, in union with Pope Damasus I, decided which books went in the NT. Now, unless you think the wrong books are in there, you have accepted their infallible decision: Surely, God guided them in that decision, yes?

You want to know where infallibility is in scripture? Read this:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

And besides, the point of Apostolic Tradition is that it is not always specifically found in scripture. Here is the definitive teaching in that regard:

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age" (Mt 28:20).

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.

source:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm

 

[Rick W]

Thread locked pending staff discussion