Trinitarian Ontology... What is it?

[Free]

Worship as used in the Bible

The Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 trinitarian United Bible Societies’ A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: “[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another’s feet.”

Even the trinitarian W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:

“PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26.”

“Obeisance,” of course, shows “respect, submission, or reverence” - Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.

Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:

“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]” - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.

Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible tells us:

“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …” - p. 941, vol. 4.

The Hebrew word most often translated “worship” is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’” And,

“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).” - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.

Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:

“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.”

The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated “prostrated himself before” at Matt. 18:26 NASB, even though the KJV uses “worship” there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant “worships” [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,

“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator.”

We find David the King receiving equal worship with Jehovah God at 1 Chron. 29:20. Yes, the actual Hebrew of the original God-inspired scriptures says: "so the entire assembly praised Jehovah, the God of their fathers: they bowed low and worshiped [shachah] Jehovah AND THE KING." - cf. KJV.

The word 'worshiped' (shachah) used here is exactly the same word as used at 2 Chron. 7:3 (see The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament, Zondervan, 1982). The praise of Jehovah included worship [shachah] of God and David! There is no separation of the two found here. They are inseparably bonded together in the very same expression of faith ("Jehovah and the king") and adoringly bathed in the same single united act of worship which recognizes and celebrates their one essence!

We also find David being worshiped at 2 Sam. 14:22. The Israelite Joab (whose name means 'Jehovah is the Father') actually worshiped David. The word used in the ancient Hebrew scriptures is shachah - the very same word translated "worship" at 2 Sam. 12:20 and 15:32 - see Strong's Concordance. This is also the same word used at 1 Kings 1:31 where the inspired word of God tells us that Bathsheba also worshiped David! - see Strong's.

Context is king; it is context that determines the meaning and translation of a word. Worship of God and worship of Jesus is the same, but is entirely different than bowing out of respect to one who is merely one's superior, lord, or master. Your whole argument ignores the very verses I posted and the contexts in which Jesus is worshiped.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed. I believe it's the angel from 9-11.


Not at all. Look at the immediate and greater context:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Rev 3:3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

Rev 16:15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)

Rev 22:7 “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

Multiple times we have Jesus saying he is the one who is "coming soon." Numerous times in the rest of the NT he is said to be coming again. So, there is no reason to believe there is someone else who is also coming soon in verse 12.


But I don't insist. Jesus spoke in verses 12 and 13, John (likely) in verses 14 and 15, and Jesus again in verse 16.


There is no reason that that is the case. Look at 16:15 where Jesus speaks, out of nowhere.


On the contrary, there is every reason to believe Jesus spoke in Rev 22:12-13. Consider also:

Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Notice the similarity to 22:6:

Rev 22:6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

Rev 22:6 is speaking of Jesus, as it is Jesus who sent his angel to show John, referring to him as "the Lord, the God." Very similar to Thomas's profession, "My Lord and my God."

And, of course:

Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

That not only supports Jesus speaking in verse 6, it supports Jesus being the only other speaker other than the angel and John in the entire chapter.

(All verses ESV.)

Agreed on all, except I do believe it is the angel speaking in
Revelation 22:6

It begins with: Then the angel said to me.....

 

[GodsGrace]

Read Less Pray More

Please reply to post no. 11
It's pivotal in understanding the Trinity.
(if that's what you're trying to do).

 

[Free]

Agreed on all, except I do believe it is the angel speaking in
Revelation 22:6

It begins with: Then the angel said to me.....

Except that, as I have shown, it is always Jesus who says, "I am coming soon," which is rather the main point, or one of the main points of the revelation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Except that, as I have shown, it is always Jesus who says, "I am coming soon," which is rather the main point, or one of the main points of the revelation.

Correct.
Maybe I didn't read it right.
Jesus says HE is coming.
Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega...
Jesus is EVERYTHING !

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Read Less Pray More and welcome to CF

Here are some scriptures you can study as I really can not add anymore than what Free has given you.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[Read Less Pray More]

Hi,
Here is the question you have to reply, IMO:
Is Jesus the same as the 2nd Person of the Trinity?
Is the 2nd Person of the Trinity a created person? (or did He always exist).

Yes of course I will reply.

I believe in Jesus' words... That he was begotten. And on that day he was given the Kingdom of God as the only begotten son.

John 1 is about the New Creation. Which day did YHWH say "I have begotten you?" and placed His Son on Mount Zion? This is the beginning of John 1.

The Logos is a quality of the Father. Similarly as His Spirit is also a quality of Himself. The 1 God and Father of Jesus Shares His 1 Eternal Spirit.... YHWH is ONE.

The Logos is Gods eternal Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8

Proverbs 8

22 YHWH possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

To possess all of God’s Logos(Wisdom), would be to know all Truth.
The Logos is God’s complete understanding and control of His creation.

A Father begets a Son and still is 100% the Father.... No change to Himself. A Son comes forth from the seed of his Father and takes on some of the Fathers roles and functions. The Son is now (HEB 1:1-2) the conduit for the Spirit (Consciousness) of his God and Father.

The king of lies, has infiltrated God’s first seed and its corresponding creation. The Father, in all His wisdom, knew immediately the corruption occurred and His plans for the eternal garden to grow and encompass the earth had to be delayed. The Father will not come dwell in a place that is corrupted by His enemy.

Instead of destroying this creation and starting completely new, in His mercy He has decided to make the effort and time - His timing, to restore this creation. He loves this creation. We are very important to Him.

Jesus is that new seed. Like Adam but better… Adam 2.0. He was begotten by the breath/Spirit/consciousness of life. Whereas Adam was created from the dust and breathed life into - animated. Jesus learned from His Father from his birth as a child. The Father was closer to this child than any other because this child was one of a kind, and there will never be another like him. He literally Fathered him and shared with him all His knowledge his entire life. They were ONE in Spirit Consciousness Jesus’ entire life. At some point, probably very early on, Jesus understood his purpose.

Now, the Risen Son, is the first glorified of the New Creation. One that will eventually, in the Father’s timing, completely encompass and restore the corrupted first creation and all its creatures.

Everything of the NEW Creation, now comes and will continue to come THROUGH the Risen Son-the True Vine. He is the only way to the Kingdom where the New Creation dwells and The Risen Son is King.

We are seeing the end of this age, this world, THIS original creation. There will be many more ages (aiōn Heb1:2) to come through the Risen Son, and many more creations different than this one if its the Will of the One True God…. Jesus’ Father and ours, YHWH.

I am researching the trinity to better understand the concept and where some might see it in scripture. But from my research I have found that many aspects of the trinity (like the one I'm asking about - How many personalities does YHWH have?) are left undefined and are therefore not agreed on.

How many personalities does YHWH actually have? This depends on the Ontology which is also not agreed on and I can never quite get an answer on. I was hoping someone here could shed some light.

 

[Free]

I am researching the trinity to better understand the concept and where some might see it in scripture. But from my research I have found that many aspects of the trinity (like the one I'm asking about - How many personalities does YHWH have?) are left undefined and are therefore not agreed on.

How many personalities does YHWH actually have? This depends on the Ontology which is also not agreed on and I can never quite get an answer on. I was hoping someone here could shed some light.

I think you are asking the wrong question, as the number of personalities God may have is not relevant as whether God is triune. There are things about the nature of God that we simply cannot know because he has not revealed them to us and they are beyond our comprehension. We can speculate, but that has a tendency to lead to error.

The types of questions you need to ask are:

1. How many gods are there in the Bible?
2. Is the Father said to be God, either explicitly or implicitly?
3. Is the Son said to be God, either explicitly or implicitly?
4. Is the Holy Spirit said to be God, either explicitly or implicitly?
5. Is the Father the same "person" as the Son or the Holy Spirit?
6. Is the Son the same "person" as the Holy Spirit?
7. What does the language used of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit tell us?
8. If Jesus is just a mere man, a creature, can his sacrifice be sufficient for all people, at all times, and in all places?

 

[Read Less Pray More]

I think you are asking the wrong question, as the number of personalities God may have is not relevant as whether God is triune. There are things about the nature of God that we simply cannot know because he has not revealed them to us and they are beyond our comprehension. We can speculate, but that has a tendency to lead to error.

The types of questions you need to ask are:

1. How many gods are there in the Bible?
2. Is the Father said to be God, either explicitly or implicitly?
3. Is the Son said to be God, either explicitly or implicitly?
4. Is the Holy Spirit said to be God, either explicitly or implicitly?
5. Is the Father the same "person" as the Son or the Holy Spirit?
6. Is the Son the same "person" as the Holy Spirit?
7. What does the language used of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit tell us?
8. If Jesus is just a mere man, a creature, can his sacrifice be sufficient for all people, at all times, and in all places?

I'd like to ask any question that needs an answer. God is not a mystery. Jesus revealed him as his Father. In fact Jesus says its eternal life to know his God and Father. Personally I prefer to get to know him, rather than throw up my hands and concede to an unknowable 3 in 1 Trinity.

The knowledge of how many personalities YHWH has is NOT something off limits to His children.

This video actually addresses James Whites arguments. Quite enlightening I'm watching it now.

 

[hawkman]

Nothing is going to eliminate the humanity of Jesus .

 

[Free]

I'd like to ask any question that needs an answer. God is not a mystery. Jesus revealed him as his Father. In fact Jesus says its eternal life to know his God and Father. Personally I prefer to get to know him, rather than throw up my hands and concede to an unknowable 3 in 1 Trinity.

God is infinite, we are not. If you can fully comprehend God, then he is a God of your own making. We are able to get to know God, based on what he has revealed to us. That we cannot comprehend him fully in no way whatsoever means he is unknowable.

The knowledge of how many personalities YHWH has is NOT something off limits to His children.

It is if he hasn't revealed it to us.

This video actually addresses James Whites arguments. Quite enlightening I'm watching it now.

He is wrong. There is no contradiction. And then he goes off coming to all sorts of erroneous conclusions. In no way whatsoever does God become an "it," and doesn't even come close to paralleling woke ideology. Yeesh, that guy is brutal.

 

[Read Less Pray More]

God is infinite, we are not. If you can fully comprehend God, then he is a God of your own making. We are able to get to know God, based on what he has revealed to us. That we cannot comprehend him fully in no way whatsoever means he is unknowable.

Infinite? Can you provide a scripture that says this? Infinite is not of the Kingdom but instead, a babylonian concept. Instead of infinity there is ETERNITY. God is Eternal. We can be to but only through His only begotten son.

It is if he hasn't revealed it to us.

He has. YHWH is 1.
This topic I posted is to determine how YHWH is not an "it" according to trinitarians. Because He would have to be if He is made up of 3 separate persons.... So are the 3 somethings persons with personalities? And how does that work with the Fact that YHWH uses singular masculine pronouns to describe HIMSELF?

 

[Free]

Infinite? Can you provide a scripture that says this? Infinite is not of the Kingdom but instead, a babylonian concept. Instead of infinity there is ETERNITY. God is Eternal. We can be to but only through His only begotten son.

God is absolute existence, a necessary, non-contingent being. He alone existed before all creation of space and time. Surely you don't need Scripture to show that those things are the case.

He has. YHWH is 1.

As I have stated, Deut 6:4 is a statement of monotheism only, not ontology.

This topic I posted is to determine how YHWH is not an "it" according to trinitarians. Because He would have to be if He is made up of 3 separate persons....

How so? Please make a logical argument that shows that would have to be the case.

So are the 3 somethings persons with personalities? And how does that work with the Fact that YHWH uses singular masculine pronouns to describe HIMSELF?

Why are you returning to this? I have already pointed out that God uses "I," but that he also uses "we" and "us." If God is an absolute unity, how does that work? The Bible actually never states that God is an absolute unity but leaves room for God to be a compound unity.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes of course I will reply.

Hi R,
No problem. I thought you forgot.
I think this is a very important topic and I think we each need to come to some kind of understanding as to what God is. Not understanding God properly will not cause anyone to not be able to worship God, however, if we understand better, we will understand our faith better.

I believe in Jesus' words... That he was begotten. And on that day he was given the Kingdom of God as the only begotten son.

Begotten is a terrible way to say what is meant and I've often regretted that this word is used.
The correct way of saying this is that Jesus was GENERATED, not created.
Begotten just means that He is a UNIQUE Son of God. Unique because He was not created.
If Jesus was created at some point in time, then I'd agree with you 100%.
But this would mean that Jesus was just a man and that we are worshipping a man - this is prohibited by Yaweh, as you know.

There is only One God.
I doubt that we could say that God is a person.
It might be better to think of Him as a being - a being we certainly cannot fathom if He created time and the universe.

Jesus main mission was to bring the Kingdom of God here on earth.
He prayed to God Father: YOUR WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.
If it were God's will that man followed, we'd be living in a much better earth with better conditions as we have now.

John 1 is about the New Creation. Which day did YHWH say "I have begotten you?" and placed His Son on Mount Zion? This is the beginning of John 1.

I don't understand how this could be the beginning of John 1.
Could you explain better?
John wrote his gospel to show how man has a relationship with God.

John starts out like this:
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

Now, you have a concept of what the word is, but how about this?:

The WORD is the 2nd person of the Trinity (some call it the Godhead).
It's the 2nd Person of the Trinity that became flesh and came to be called Jesus, as a human being.

The 3rd Person of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit.
This is the breath of God.

So John states that IN THE BEGINNING the Word already existed.
The Word was with God.
And the Word WAS GOD.

The 2nd Person of the Trinity had no beginning.

There is only 1 being called GOD.
His Word, or thoughts, or mind, can also be known as t he 2nd Person.

His Spirit, which gives life, like to Adam in Genesis,
is the 3rd Person of the Trinity and can also be known as the Holy Spirit,
which always existed.

There is only 1 God.
We come to understand some traits of His from studying the bible.
One trait is His Word which thinks and creates (the universe and all in it).
Another trait is His Breath which gives life, even to His born again believers.

The Logos is a quality of the Father. Similarly as His Spirit is also a quality of Himself. The 1 God and Father of Jesus Shares His 1 Eternal Spirit.... YHWH is ONE.

The Logos is Gods eternal Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8

Proverbs 8

Logos means word in Greek.
But it means much more...

Logos​

noun​

Lo·gos ˈlō-ˌgäs
-ˌgōs

pluralLogoi ˈlō-ˌgȯi
1
: the divine wisdom manifest in the creation, government, and redemption of the world and often identified with the second person of the Trinity
2
: reason that in ancient Greek philosophy is the controlling principle in the universe

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Logos (UK: /ˈloʊɡɒs, ˈlɒɡɒs/, US: /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Ancient Greek: λόγος, romanized: lógos, lit. 'word, discourse, or reason') is a term used in Western philosophy, psychology and rhetoric and refers to the appeal to reason that relies on logic or reason, inductive and deductive reasoning. Aristotle first systemised the usage of the word, making it one of the three principles of rhetoric. This specific use identifies the word closely to the structure and content of text itself. This specific usage has then been developed through the history of western philosophy and rhetoric.

The word has also been used in different senses along with rhema. Both Plato and Aristotle used the term logos along with rhema to refer to sentences and propositions. It is primarily in this sense the term is also found in religion.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

To possess all of God’s Logos(Wisdom), would be to know all Truth.
The Logos is God’s complete understanding and control of His creation.

A Father begets a Son and still is 100% the Father.... No change to Himself. A Son comes forth from the seed of his Father and takes on some of the Fathers roles and functions. The Son is now (HEB 1:1-2) the conduit for the Spirit (Consciousness) of his God and Father.

I wouldn't say that when the 2nd Person of the Trinity became a human, that He took on some of the roles and functions of the Father. I'd say that He revealed God Father more than He had ever been revealed before. I'd say that Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God.

I've never heard it said that the Son is the conduit for the Spirit.
The Spirit is separate from the Son.
However, they all know what each of the other two are thinking and experiencing.
They are separate in function, but all one in essense.

I like this image to understand better:



Must continue at a later time...

 

[GodsGrace]

The king of lies, has infiltrated God’s first seed and its corresponding creation. The Father, in all His wisdom, knew immediately the corruption occurred and His plans for the eternal garden to grow and encompass the earth had to be delayed. The Father will not come dwell in a place that is corrupted by His enemy.

Good way of stating what happened.

Instead of destroying this creation and starting completely new, in His mercy He has decided to make the effort and time - His timing, to restore this creation. He loves this creation. We are very important to Him.

OK. But I don't know how we could possibly know this for sure.
When we start departing from the bible, we always run into problems.
Is there some scripture that states what you believe?

Jesus is that new seed. Like Adam but better… Adam 2.0.

Oh. I understand.
OK.

He was begotten by the breath/Spirit/consciousness of life.

If you're going to try to understand the Trinity, you have to get a different understanding of the word BEGOTTEN.
Jesus was GENERATED from God Father...Jesus was not begotten in the way we understand this word to mean today.

Whereas Adam was created from the dust and breathed life into - animated. Jesus learned from His Father from his birth as a child. The Father was closer to this child than any other because this child was one of a kind, and there will never be another like him. He literally Fathered him and shared with him all His knowledge his entire life. They were ONE in Spirit Consciousness Jesus’ entire life. At some point, probably very early on, Jesus understood his purpose.

I can agree with the above and it makes sense IF we understand that, yes, JESUS was born.
Jesus was created.
The 2nd Person of the Trinity became a fleshly human being.
He was 100% God
and 100% man.
This is called the hypostatic union.
The early theologians had to make sense of Jesus' nature, just like you're trying to do.
They've already done all the big work for you, but I think we all should come to our own understanding
of this topic.

Now, the Risen Son, is the first glorified of the New Creation. One that will eventually, in the Father’s timing, completely encompass and restore the corrupted first creation and all its creatures.

Everything of the NEW Creation, now comes and will continue to come THROUGH the Risen Son-the True Vine. He is the only way to the Kingdom where the New Creation dwells and The Risen Son is King.

We are seeing the end of this age, this world, THIS original creation. There will be many more ages (aiōn Heb1:2) to come through the Risen Son, and many more creations different than this one if its the Will of the One True God…. Jesus’ Father and ours, YHWH.

I am researching the trinity to better understand the concept and where some might see it in scripture. But from my research I have found that many aspects of the trinity (like the one I'm asking about - How many personalities does YHWH have?) are left undefined and are therefore not agreed on.

How many personalities does YHWH actually have? This depends on the Ontology which is also not agreed on and I can never quite get an answer on. I was hoping someone here could shed some light.

How many personalities does God have?
Who can know?
But since each Person of the Trinity has His own work to do,and purpose, I'd say at least 3.

I hate to throw this your way, but perhaps you'd like to study DIVINE SIMPLICITY a little.
I think it might be interesting for you. I think William Lane Craig discusses this on YouTube.
If he's in the discussion, it'll be good.

Another good idea for you would be to study the Early Theologians in the first couple of centuries after Jesus ascended. They're called the Early Church Fathers. See what THEY thought about this. They were taught directly from the Apostles that spent years with Jesus.