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Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

Isaiah 40:25
“To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.

Isaiah 46:5
“With whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

That word "equal" could be translated in other words, such as, "equated," or "counted," or "equality." If Jesus states that "The father is greater than I" and refers to his Father in prayer as "You, the only true God." It's kind of obvious that he's not equal to the one who sent him. "God exalted him," he did not exalt himself !

Here is an alternate reading of Philippians 2:6. Who being in the form of God did not think equality with God as obtainable.
Take, Rob,obtain
I'm not sure if one could use 'obtainable,' but regardless, such a reading ignores the context. There are two very good understandings of this passage.

One is that the Greek word used for robbery can also mean "something to be forcibly retained or held on to," or so it is said. This would imply that Jesus was God but, for the sake of the salvation of man and the redemption of creation, he would not forcibly or tightly hold on to his privileges as God.

The second meaning, which at first doesn't imply that he is God, is that he did not see equality with God as something to be "snatched violently," or "seized." In this sense, it doesn't mean that he isn't God, but rather that in his humbled state as a man, as a servant, he knew men would be see him as being equal with God through his death and resurrection, rather than compelling men to worship him by somehow using his divine nature. He did it through his suffering and humiliation rather than This is further supported by verses 9-11.

Looking at the context, first notice that Christ emptied himself. He did the emptying. Second, notice where this statement lies: directly in between the two statements "counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God," and "taking the form of a servant." It is very important to keep this in mind. This leads to a significant point that you have missed:

He emptied himself. That is, he was full of something of which it was necessary to empty himself of in order to become a man. It is very significant that Paul uses this phrase to transition from speaking of Christ being in the "form" or "nature" of God to being in the "form of a servant."

The verses from Isa. are statements of monotheism and neither prove the doctrine of the Trinity false nor true.
 
If God is a Trinity, then why has he never said so?
But that is precisely the point we are getting at: He has said so, as revealed throughout Scripture.

JudaicChristian said:
I think it is pointless to discuss the subject any longer.
That is your choice but you sure didn't provide any real response to any of the main arguments.
 
Some come to thread and try to say that Jesus was an angel. Hebrews chapter 1 has a reply to this false notion:

Unto Jesus is said, "Thy throne, O God --> for ever and ever.
God has honored Jesus - telling the angels to worship him. "And let all the angels of God worship him"
Unto him is said, "Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever"


Conclusion

It is not necessary that Jesus say a certain phrase in order for the truth of who he is to be made clear. The issue is not if he speaks a certain sentence that we construct in present terms in order to satisfy our theological demands. The issue is what did Jesus say in the context and culture of the time in which he spoke.

Finally, we know that Jesus is God in flesh because the Bible tells us so.
  • John 1:1, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
  • John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
  • Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'"

ENGLISH:................ Thy... throne, .. O God ... [is] for... ever .. and ever
GREEK:.....................σοῦ... θρόνος .... θεός ... εἰς ....... αἰών .....αἰών
TRANSLITERATION:... Sou... thronos ..Theos ... eis ...... aiōn ..... aiōn

Jesus is my Lord and my God and I am not alone: Angels called him, "Emmanuel" meaning "God with us". John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

___________________________
Footnotes, References, Credits:
Jesus: A Biblical Defense of His Deity by Josh McDowel and Bart Larson
Did Jesus ever say the exact words "I am God?" by CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)
Everywhere there is proof of a Trinity there is a problem in translation. Why is that?
Psalm 97 before the Christian era.

Psalm 97
5. The mountains melt like wax before Yahwah, before Yahwah of all the earth.
6. The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the people see His glory.
7. All who worship images and those who boast in idols are put to shame, worship Him, all you gods!
8. Zion hears and rejoices and the villages of Judah are glad because of your judgments, Yahwah.

Psalm 97:9
For you, O LORD, are the Most High over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods.
Deuteronomy 32:43; Psalm 97:7 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Deuteronomy 32:43
43 Rejoice, you nations, over His people, (A) [a]
for He will avenge the blood of His servants.
He will take vengeance on His adversaries; (B) [c]
He will purify His land and His people. [d]

Footnotes:
a. Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX reads Rejoice, you heavens, along with Him, and let all the sons of God worship Him; rejoice, you nations, with His people, and let all the angels of God strengthen themselves in Him; DSS reads Rejoice, you heavens, along with Him, and let all the angels worship Him; [Heb 1:6]
b. Deuteronomy 32:43 DSS, LXX read sons
c. Deuteronomy 32:43 DSS, LXX add and He will recompense those who hate Him; v. [41]
d. Deuteronomy 32:43 Syr, Tg; DSS, Sam, LXX, Vg read His people's land
Cross references:
A. Deuteronomy 32:43 : Rm 15:10;
B. Deuteronomy 32:43 : Ps 79:10;
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003 by Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville Tennessee. All rights reserved.

Psalm 97:7
7 All who serve carved images,
those who boast in idols, will be put to shame. (A)
All the gods [a] must worship Him. (B)

Footnotes:
a. Psalm 97:7 LXX, Syr read All His angels; [Heb 1:6]
Cross references:
A. Psalm 97:7 : Is 44:9;, 11; Jr 10:14; 50:2;
B. Psalm 97:7 : Heb 1:6;

Deuteronomy 32:43; Psalm 97:7 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Deuteronomy 32:43
43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people, [a] ,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.
Footnotes:
a. Deuteronomy 32:43 Or Make his people rejoice, O nations
b. Deuteronomy 32:43 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint) people, / and let all the angels worship him
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by Biblica

Psalm 97:7
7 All who worship images are put to shame,
those who boast in idols—
worship him, all you gods!
 
Finally, we know that Jesus is God in flesh because the Bible tells us so.

No kidding.. although unfortunately many are led to believe that they correct the holy scriptures rather than IT correcting them.
 
The fact that Yahshua represents the Father does not mean that he is the Father himself. He does appear {AS / LIKE} the Father in his second coming.
This is besides the point.

Please - it is clear that you are evading. Just answer my two questions please. Once you do, I will have more questions.
 
If God is a Trinity, then why has he never said so? I think it is pointless to discuss the subject any longer.
As I believe Free has implied in his last post, the divinity of Jesus is revealed in the narrative structure of the whole Bible. This is something you seem unwilling to accept, so you continually evade our attempt to call you on it.

One more time: In the Old Testament, God makes certain promise about things He will do - return to Zion, re-inhabit the temple, etc. So then we have Jesus, intentionally doing these very same things. Here is just one tiny snippet of that argument. In Luke, a whole whack of chapters are dedicated to Jesus journey to Jerusalem. Yes, a journey - to those open to it, this is clearly suggestive of a return to Zion, at least structurally. Then, as he crests the hill and looks down on Jerusalem, what does He say?:

If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you

He says this as He, Jesus, is about to enter the city. Surely you must realize that this a symbolic of Jesus saying "It is in my (Jesus') actions, that "God's coming to you" is being fulfilled.

We do not need Jesus to says "I am the second person of Tri-une God". He says it far more effectively precisely in how He fulfills the Old Testament narrative of a God who is fulfilling a promise to return to His people.
 
Everywhere there is proof of a Trinity there is a problem in translation. Why is that?
This is would be a good time to give us substantial proof. You keep making such claims but have not provided much of anything to back them up.
 
I'm not sure if one could use 'obtainable,' but regardless, such a reading ignores the context. There are two very good understandings of this passage.

One is that the Greek word used for robbery can also mean "something to be forcibly retained or held on to," or so it is said. This would imply that Jesus was God but, for the sake of the salvation of man and the redemption of creation, he would not forcibly or tightly hold on to his privileges as God.

The second meaning, which at first doesn't imply that he is God, is that he did not see equality with God as something to be "snatched violently," or "seized." In this sense, it doesn't mean that he isn't God, but rather that in his humbled state as a man, as a servant, he knew men would be see him as being equal with God through his death and resurrection, rather than compelling men to worship him by somehow using his divine nature. He did it through his suffering and humiliation rather than This is further supported by verses 9-11.

Looking at the context, first notice that Christ emptied himself. He did the emptying. Second, notice where this statement lies: directly in between the two statements "counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God," and "taking the form of a servant." It is very important to keep this in mind. This leads to a significant point that you have missed:

He emptied himself. That is, he was full of something of which it was necessary to empty himself of in order to become a man. It is very significant that Paul uses this phrase to transition from speaking of Christ being in the "form" or "nature" of God to being in the "form of a servant."

The verses from Isa. are statements of monotheism and neither prove the doctrine of the Trinity false nor true.
NIV Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

Holman Bible. Phil 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God (M)as something to be used for His own advantage. [a]

Holman Footnotes:a.Philippians 2:6 Or to be grasped, or to be held on to.
 
KJV of Heb 1:6. And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


Everywhere there is proof of a Trinity there is a problem in translation. Why is that?
KJV Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.Quote from Psalm 97:7.

Deuteronomy 32:43 (New International Version, ©2011)

43 Rejoice, you nations, with his people,[a]
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.


Footnotes:a.Deuteronomy 32:43 Or Make his people rejoice, you nations
b.Deuteronomy 32:43 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint) people, / and let all the angels worship him, /

Psalm 97 before the Christian era.

Psalm 97
5. The mountains melt like wax before Yahwah, before Yahwah of all the earth.
6. The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the people see His glory.
7. All who worship images and those who boast in idols are put to shame, worship Him, all you gods!
8. Zion hears and rejoices and the villages of Judah are glad because of your judgments, Yahwah.

Psalm 97:9
For you, O LORD, are the Most High over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods.
Deuteronomy 32:43; Psalm 97:7 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Deuteronomy 32:43
43 Rejoice, you nations, over His people, (A) [a]
for He will avenge the blood of His servants.
He will take vengeance on His adversaries; (B) [c]
He will purify His land and His people. [d]

Footnotes:
a. Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX reads Rejoice, you heavens, along with Him, and let all the sons of God worship Him; rejoice, you nations, with His people, and let all the angels of God strengthen themselves in Him; DSS reads Rejoice, you heavens, along with Him, and let all the angels worship Him; [Heb 1:6]
b. Deuteronomy 32:43 DSS, LXX read sons
c. Deuteronomy 32:43 DSS, LXX add and He will recompense those who hate Him; v. [41]
d. Deuteronomy 32:43 Syr, Tg; DSS, Sam, LXX, Vg read His people's land
Cross references:
A. Deuteronomy 32:43 : Rm 15:10;
B. Deuteronomy 32:43 : Ps 79:10;
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003 by Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville Tennessee. All rights reserved.

Psalm 97:7
7 All who serve carved images,
those who boast in idols, will be put to shame. (A)
All the gods [a] must worship Him. (B)

Footnotes:
a. Psalm 97:7 LXX, Syr read All His angels; [Heb 1:6]
Cross references:
A. Psalm 97:7 : Is 44:9;, 11; Jr 10:14; 50:2;
B. Psalm 97:7 : Heb 1:6;

Deuteronomy 32:43; Psalm 97:7 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Deuteronomy 32:43
43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people, [a] ,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.
Footnotes:
a. Deuteronomy 32:43 Or Make his people rejoice, O nations
b. Deuteronomy 32:43 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint) people, / and let all the angels worship him
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by Biblica

Psalm 97:7
7 All who worship images are put to shame,
those who boast in idols—
worship him, all you gods!
 
NIV Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

Holman Bible. Phil 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God (M)as something to be used for His own advantage. [a]

Holman Footnotes:a.Philippians 2:6 Or to be grasped, or to be held on to.
Your quote from the "NIV" is actually from the TNIV (just for clarification).

Php 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, (NIV)

The problem however is that you have inserted "[a]" into the text to read "a God" rather than "God," which is what the text actually states. You are forcing a meaning onto the text which is unwarranted.

Other than that, I don't know what you are trying to say or how this answers any of the points in my post.
 
Your quote from the "NIV" is actually from the TNIV (just for clarification).

Php 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, (NIV)

The problem however is that you have inserted "[a]" into the text to read "a God" rather than "God," which is what the text actually states. You are forcing a meaning onto the text which is unwarranted.

Other than that, I don't know what you are trying to say or how this answers any of the points in my post.

How one can claim to BELIEVE THE Eternal GOSPEL that has Christ/God BEING THE CENTER/PIECE OF ETERNAL LIFE& as not being Immortal & Eternal, Rev. 14:6 fall's right in line with 2 John 1:9-11 of being [OUTSIDE] of the Eternal DOCTRINE OF CHRIST!

Now, we do not know ones heart or 'diet of milk' beyond what they post up for truth. Yet, the post itself needs constant exposeing it seems? (for there are other Heb. 5 'babes' around here)

--Elijah
 
The words "I am"

Now please understand that anyone can say the words "I am" and it does not mean that he is claiming to be God. Someone could say, "I am over here." That is not claiming the divine name. Likewise, someone could say, "I am hungry," or "I am sick." Neither example is claiming divinity, because the use of the term "I am" in context clearly shows us that is not what is occurring. But, in John 8:58 when Jesus said "before Abraham was born, I am," the Jews knew exactly what he was saying. Notice that he says before Abraham was born (using the past tense) and then he switches to the present tense when he says "I am." Jesus switches tenses of the verbs on purpose so that when he does so in the context of referencing Abraham, Jesus is clearly drawing the Jews' attention to the Old Testament Scriptures and then using a present tense form of the verb "to be" by saying "I AM". Someone who says "I am hungry" is not drawing attention to the Old Testament Scriptures for context.

Jesus was clearly causing the Jews to reflect upon the divine name "I am" that Jesus used for himself. We know that they understood this because as is said above, they said, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God," (John 10:33).
God's name is Yahwah, not I'am. Read: Judaic Christian Forum - Yahwah
 
I am is a cult thing, as you can see from the different answers given.

Matthew 26:64
“You have said so,†Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.â€

Mark 14:62
“I am,†said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.â€

Luke 22:70 They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?â€
He replied, “You say that I am.â€
 
Peace ... I haven't read through all the posts, but I'd simply like to say:

Jesus is presented as being God, being equal to the Father, being the Creator, etc. in dozens of verses.
People who don't believe these verses simply don't believe the Bible.
People picking and choosing which verses they would like to believe are writing their own private Bibles.

Do you think it's a good thing for people to write their own Bibles?
I think this might make for an interesting discussion.
 
Your quote from the "NIV" is actually from the TNIV (just for clarification).

Php 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, (NIV)

The problem however is that you have inserted "[a]" into the text to read "a God" rather than "God," which is what the text actually states. You are forcing a meaning onto the text which is unwarranted.

Other than that, I don't know what you are trying to say or how this answers any of the points in my post.
The letter [a] here is for the Holman Footnote. Im going to have to give up on this thread because I am not able to use the edit tools for the Editor.

NIV Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

Holman Bible. Phil 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God (M)as something to be used for His own advantage. [a]

Holman Footnotes:a.Philippians 2:6 Or to be grasped, or to be held on to.
 
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Deuteronomy 32:39. See now that I alone am He; there is no God but Me.

John 4:21. Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Note: Had the people and prophets of Judaism gotten it wrong as to who God is? If they had, God would have informed them that He was a Trinity. Is there a divine mystery where only the Catholic Papacy could make it known that Yahwah is a Trinity?
God is not a man: In Numbers 23:16; "God is not a man..." defies the possibility that Yahshua The Messiah is God. The text states that: Yahwah is not an ("iys/man) that He should lie, nor the son of (Adam/Man")...

Also Here:

Hosea 11:9
I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you.
Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.
 
Peace ... I haven't read through all the posts, but I'd simply like to say:

Jesus is presented as being God, being equal to the Father, being the Creator, etc. in dozens of verses.
People who don't believe these verses simply don't believe the Bible.
People picking and choosing which verses they would like to believe are writing their own private Bibles.

Do you think it's a good thing for people to write their own Bibles?
I think this might make for an interesting discussion.

The point of the issue surrounding Jesus is that he is the Christ and the son of God, that he came in the flesh. That is the "Doctrine of Christ," and in absence of those particular beliefs the definition of anti-christ. To me, the patience of Jesus seen by how he treated Thomas is an example of being Christlike.
 
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