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Tritheism vs. true Trinity (co-existent modalism).
- Thread starter justbyfaith
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The True Trinity (co-existent modalism).
Here is how I define the Trinity.
The Father is a Spirit without flesh inhabiting eternity (John 4:23-24, Isaiah 57:15).
The Son is the same Spirit come in flesh (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
The Holy Ghost is the same Spirit as He is released from the physical body of the Son at His crucifixion (Luke 23:46).
(For God is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24).)
The Holy Ghost being distinct from the Father in that He has lived the human life of Christ and therefore has an experiential understanding of humanity.
The Son being distinct from the Father and the Holy Ghost in that He is come in flesh (while the Father and the Holy Ghost also dwell in the Person of the Son, Colossians 2:9).
I believe that the Son was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35); which does not make it impossible that He is pre-existent.
For He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); even to exist outside of time.
For in the Bible codes of Genesis 1 it can be determined that there are ten dimensions in reality. The risen and ascended Son fills all ten. So, He is far above the fourth dimension; which is time. Therefore Jesus exists outside of time.
And because He exists outside of time, His existence extends into eternity past.
Thus, the Father created the worlds through Jesus Christ; since Christ existed in the beginning;
While the beginning of His life (as the Son in flesh) happened at the juncture of Luke 1:35.
Some have tried to define this theology as not being the Trinity by giving it the label of "Coexistent Modalism".
I think that such is a slander on the doctrine.
I developed this doctrine as an emphasis on the Oneness of God in the Trinity.
I would declare that they are the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4) and therefore, also, in a specific sense, the same Person.
While they are also three distinct Persons according to the beginning statements of this post.
Here is how I define the Trinity.
The Father is a Spirit without flesh inhabiting eternity (John 4:23-24, Isaiah 57:15).
The Son is the same Spirit come in flesh (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
The Holy Ghost is the same Spirit as He is released from the physical body of the Son at His crucifixion (Luke 23:46).
(For God is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24).)
The Holy Ghost being distinct from the Father in that He has lived the human life of Christ and therefore has an experiential understanding of humanity.
The Son being distinct from the Father and the Holy Ghost in that He is come in flesh (while the Father and the Holy Ghost also dwell in the Person of the Son, Colossians 2:9).
I believe that the Son was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35); which does not make it impossible that He is pre-existent.
For He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); even to exist outside of time.
For in the Bible codes of Genesis 1 it can be determined that there are ten dimensions in reality. The risen and ascended Son fills all ten. So, He is far above the fourth dimension; which is time. Therefore Jesus exists outside of time.
And because He exists outside of time, His existence extends into eternity past.
Thus, the Father created the worlds through Jesus Christ; since Christ existed in the beginning;
While the beginning of His life (as the Son in flesh) happened at the juncture of Luke 1:35.
Some have tried to define this theology as not being the Trinity by giving it the label of "Coexistent Modalism".
I think that such is a slander on the doctrine.
I developed this doctrine as an emphasis on the Oneness of God in the Trinity.
I would declare that they are the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4) and therefore, also, in a specific sense, the same Person.
While they are also three distinct Persons according to the beginning statements of this post.
Last edited by a moderator:
We do...the other threads have been closed.
You have misrepresented the historical, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity far too many times. No more.
I will say that it is true that the mormons preach that God is actually three separate beings and deny the Oneness of God in the Trinity. I do believe that this doctrine has made its way into the minds and hearts of some who call themselves "Trinitarian".
Not that all who call themselves "Trinitarian" accept mormon doctrine.
But I do believe that any time you separate the members of the Godhead (such as in one diagram which I deem to be heretical), you are agreeing with the mormon idea that God is three separate beings rather than one God in three Persons; which is the true Trinity.
I have modified these statements so that hopefully, they are more acceptable to those who are moderating.
These statements go with my statement wherein I said that I developed my doctrine as an emphasis on the Oneness of God in the Trinity.
Not that all who call themselves "Trinitarian" accept mormon doctrine.
But I do believe that any time you separate the members of the Godhead (such as in one diagram which I deem to be heretical), you are agreeing with the mormon idea that God is three separate beings rather than one God in three Persons; which is the true Trinity.
I have modified these statements so that hopefully, they are more acceptable to those who are moderating.
These statements go with my statement wherein I said that I developed my doctrine as an emphasis on the Oneness of God in the Trinity.
I have not misrepresented it.
I do believe that the diagram that teaches that,
"the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost"
defines the members of the Godhead as being separate rather than distinct.
Also, in the creeds and in the Bible, we find that the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord;
but the creeds say that it is forbidden by Catholic doctrine to say that there are three Lords.
Nevertheless, when the statement is made that,
"the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost",
I believe that the conclusion is that there are three Lords rather than one;
for each one is not the other;
and therefore they are separate;
and therefore they are not one Lord.
How many Lord then are they?
Is not the answer, three?
Yet we are forbidden by Catholic doctrine to say or teach that.
Therefore I conclude that the diagram which teaches the statement,
"the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost"
is a heretical diagram which denies the statement of the creeds that,
"We are forbidden by Catholic doctrine to state that there are three Lords."
"the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost"
defines the members of the Godhead as being separate rather than distinct.
Also, in the creeds and in the Bible, we find that the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord;
but the creeds say that it is forbidden by Catholic doctrine to say that there are three Lords.
Nevertheless, when the statement is made that,
"the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost",
I believe that the conclusion is that there are three Lords rather than one;
for each one is not the other;
and therefore they are separate;
and therefore they are not one Lord.
How many Lord then are they?
Is not the answer, three?
Yet we are forbidden by Catholic doctrine to say or teach that.
Therefore I conclude that the diagram which teaches the statement,
"the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost"
is a heretical diagram which denies the statement of the creeds that,
"We are forbidden by Catholic doctrine to state that there are three Lords."
I forgot to mention this scripture in post #2 of this thread.
Isa 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7, Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isa 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7, Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
The latter of which is the true Trinity.
Free, you could not answer this argument via PM so I don't expect you to be able to do so publicly.
Yet, I challenge you to do so publicly.
I would like to point out also, that, when you say,
"God the Father IS NOT God the Son IS NOT God the Holy Ghost"
you are in effect, saying,
"God IS NOT God IS NOT God."
Thus, the heretical diagram denies God.
1Jo 2:22, Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
"God the Father IS NOT God the Son IS NOT God the Holy Ghost"
you are in effect, saying,
"God IS NOT God IS NOT God."
Thus, the heretical diagram denies God.
1Jo 2:22, Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
The Bible teaches that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) who is God (John 4:24).
So, in order to contend with my idea of co-existent modalism being the true Trinity,
you have to contend with the idea that Jesus is the same Spirit as the Father; only come in flesh.
But if He is not the same Spirit, then He is a different spirit;
and if He is a different spirit, then He is not God; or else He is a 2nd Spirit who is God; which is contrary to scripture (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4):
Because there is one Spirit who is God (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24); and therefore if Jesus is a different spirit; in that case, he is not God.
Therefore I conclude that, since we know from holy scripture (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33) that Jesus is God, I conclude that He is the same Spirit as God (the Father);
since God is one Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4);
Therefore: since Jesus is God, He is a Spirit (John 4:24); and since there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) who is God (John 4:24), I conclude that Jesus is the same Spirit as God the Father (John 4:23-24, John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4).
So, in order to contend with my idea of co-existent modalism being the true Trinity,
you have to contend with the idea that Jesus is the same Spirit as the Father; only come in flesh.
But if He is not the same Spirit, then He is a different spirit;
and if He is a different spirit, then He is not God; or else He is a 2nd Spirit who is God; which is contrary to scripture (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4):
Because there is one Spirit who is God (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24); and therefore if Jesus is a different spirit; in that case, he is not God.
Therefore I conclude that, since we know from holy scripture (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33) that Jesus is God, I conclude that He is the same Spirit as God (the Father);
since God is one Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4);
Therefore: since Jesus is God, He is a Spirit (John 4:24); and since there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) who is God (John 4:24), I conclude that Jesus is the same Spirit as God the Father (John 4:23-24, John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4).
Here is a link to a similar thread (just so that we can avoid repetition):
christianforums.net
Coexistent modalism...the true Trinity.
Here is how I define the Trinity. The Father is a Spirit without flesh inhabiting eternity (John 4:23-24, Isaiah 57:15). The Son is the same Spirit come in flesh (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7). The Holy Ghost is the same Spirit as He is released from the physical body of...
Mungo
Member
As I understand the ancient belief of the Trinity is that God is 3 persons but one being (of one substance - the Orthodox say essence).
An explanation that I find helpful is the distinction between who a person is, and what a person is.
When you say
If someone asked me who I was I would say Mungo -(who)
If someone asked me what I was I would say a human -(what)
Similarly
Ask the Father who are you and he would say "God the Father" -(who)
Ask the Father what are you and he would say "God" - (what)
Ask the Son who are you and he would say "God the Son" -(who)
Ask the Son what are you and he would say "God" - (what)
Ask the Holy Spirit who are you and he would say "God the Holy Spirit" -(who)
Ask the Holy Spirit what are you and he would say "God" - (what)
Each is God, yet God is one.
An explanation that I find helpful is the distinction between who a person is, and what a person is.
When you say
You are mixing persons with being.
If someone asked me who I was I would say Mungo -(who)
If someone asked me what I was I would say a human -(what)
Similarly
Ask the Father who are you and he would say "God the Father" -(who)
Ask the Father what are you and he would say "God" - (what)
Ask the Son who are you and he would say "God the Son" -(who)
Ask the Son what are you and he would say "God" - (what)
Ask the Holy Spirit who are you and he would say "God the Holy Spirit" -(who)
Ask the Holy Spirit what are you and he would say "God" - (what)
Each is God, yet God is one.
This is a problem that has developed as the result of a heretical diagram that has been circulating in the body of Christ.
In terms of what...
To say that "God the Father IS NOT God the Son IS NOT God the Holy Ghost"
is to say that "God IS NOT God IS NOT God."
Mungo
Member
No it doesn't. You are mixing persons with being.
"To say that "God the Father [person] IS NOT God the Son [person] IS NOT God the Holy Ghost [person]" - CORRECT
is to say that "God [being] IS NOT God [being] IS NOT God [being]." - WRONG
We will have to agree to disagree...and I will pray for you.
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