Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

[Jethro Bodine]

You mean there are no Jews anymore? Really? Or do you mean the individual tribes or proven descendants disappears? Like in 70 AD?

D., Jesus has not come back. It's painfully obvious that not all that Jesus said has come to pass. That forces us to use the definition and usage of the word in question here that accommodates that fact.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I heard that too but the problem is it says those who pierced him will see it. Those who pierced him are all long dead.

He's talking about the nation of Israel as a whole.

 

[Free]

Look up “nation will arise against nation” in the same chapter Matt 24, and the Greek uses “ethos.” It’s always been translated “nation.”

Well, there's the issue. The Greek word used for "nation" is ethnos, not ethos. Those are two very different words.

I did better. I looked up the text and went back to the Greek and there it was, ethos as in nation from which we derive ethnic group or genera which was “generation” each time and where “ethnic group” makes no sense or sounds like genocide. Look up the scripture not a link.

This is how and the number of times genea is translated in the KJV: generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/genea.html

So, as I've been saying, just because it translates as "generation" in Matt 24:34, doesn't mean that that is necessarily the case. That was simply the choice of meaning chosen by the KJV translators.

Where? Your view is all the Jews will die when the scripture is fulfilled. Or?

The bolded portions, hence why I bolded them. You first state: "What Jesus is saying is the Jews will not die until all this is fulfilled," which implies they will die once all is fulfilled. But then you state: "I doubt any christian thinks the Jews will all one day pass away." But that is what you think, according to the first quote.

Not in the translations. I know learned men of particular personal opinions write articles. The translators don’t change between ethos and genera deciding which fits their eschatology…..or do they?

Yes, in the translations, that is the whole point. I have at least twice given the different meanings for genea, which can easily be confirmed by checking the links I provided, which was rather the point in providing them. Or, if you have Strong's on hand, check in there and it will confirm also.

All translators must choose between meanings of a given word and, try as they might, their personal views are going to influence them to some degree, although it is mostly context that determines the meaning.

I'll help you out since you seem not to want to do the proper studying:

Act 14:16 Who in times [genea] past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time [genea] hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages [genea] was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages [genea], world without end. Amen.

Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation [genea], among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Matches exactly with the numbers I've given and can be confirmed by the references I provided.

You mean there are no Jews anymore? Really? Or do you mean the individual tribes or proven descendants disappears? Like in 70 AD?

Obviously that is not what I mean. But, if you mean what you said earlier, that "What Jesus is saying is the Jews will not die until all this is fulfilled," and you believe all is fulfilled, then all the Jews must be dead.

The main issue is that all of what Jesus said has certainly not been fulfilled, if only because he has not yet returned.

No it doesn’t. You said ONE time (no reference) genera was translated other than generation. The places I read where generation is used “nation” makes no sense.

Firstly, I haven't once said "genera" because the word is "genea." Secondly, the first time I said genea was translated other than "generation" I didn't provide a reference. However, twice after that I did provide the reference as well as the text from the reference, and you even quoted those both times, including in this post I'm replying to. I have now provided it a third time.

There was more than one question referring to events that won’t happen at the same time. You cannot deny that the temple was destroyed as Jesus said. That undeniable event shows those matters cannot possibly happen at the same time. One, at least, was completed in70 AD.

Are you even reading what I am writing? I have agreed with you on this. That was one of the main points I initially made. Why do you want to argue about things we agree on?

They left town when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. It’s very simple. The christians knew it was for them and they left escaping the destruction.

Yes, but that isn't what I was asking. You inserted "Christians" when we were talking about Jews. Why? It makes it sound like you're implying that "this generation," the one that "will not pass away," is referring to Christians.

Actually, that is an interesting argument, considering he is speaking to his followers. I'll have to think about it and do some study.

However, it still leaves us with the problem that you think my current position holds: 'But again, when it "clearly has all come to pass" will all the Jews around the world then "pass away?"' That argument cuts both ways. You have to deal with it as well.

And it still contradicts what you said earlier, that "What Jesus is saying is the Jews will not die until all this is fulfilled." Is it Jews or Christians?

 

[bellgamin]

Dorothy Mae wrote:

Why do you quote it if your uninterested in debating scripture? Or do you mean what you think it means is clear and you’re uninterested in considering your thinking might be incorrect? “Don’t confuse me with scripture, I’ve already made up my mind.”

Your comment illustrates the problem when debates ensue over Scripture where the text is clear and plain. Namely, the debate almost inevitably degrades FROM debating the meaning of Scripture TO questioning the motivations, goals, & (often -- not always) the intelligence of those with whom one disagrees. 1Cor 11.16

As to Matthew chapter 24, the distinction between that chapter's fulfilled prophecy versus that chapter's as-yet-unfulfilled prophecy has always been clear to students grades 7-12 & further on. Unlike the books of Daniel & Revelation, Chapter 24 of Matthew is not apocalyptic in nature. The plain meaning of the plain text of Matthew 24 is what it is.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy Mae wrote: Your comment illustrates the problem when debates ensue over Scripture where the text is clear and plain. Namely, the debate almost inevitably degrades FROM debating the meaning of Scripture TO questioning the motivations, goals, & (often -- not always) the intelligence of those with whom one disagrees. 1Cor 11.16

Yes, I agree and my apologies. That was not good of me and I regret writing that. I should have said that deciding that what you think is "clear" does not mean it is clear. When Jesus said "this generation shall not pass away until these things happen" is pretty clear and he is saying to the generation standing there that these things will happen before they all die. That is actually clear. Now, this is not accepted because some have chosen a certain eschatology that insists they have not happened at all. So this changes the clear "you will not all die before these things take place" into him making a very ambiguous statement that told nothing to those standing there who thought they understood the clear statement. Those standing there needed to know that what he said, those terrible circumstances will happen in their lifetime. For the christians, it was really vital and they believed it would happen in their lifetime as they obey exactly what Jesus said to do when they saw the signs he said they would see.

As to Matthew chapter 24, the distinction between that chapter's fulfilled prophecy versus that chapter's as-yet-unfulfilled prophecy has always been clear to students grades 7-12 & further on. Unlike the books of Daniel & Revelation, Chapter 24 of Matthew is not apocalyptic in nature. The plain meaning of the plain text of Matthew 24 is what it is.

Well, I sincerely doubt jr high and high school students understand Matthew 24 better than theologians. However, Matthew 24 is similar to Revelation and the other books. Saying Matthew "is what it is" is not saying anything. Everything in the whole world is what it is. It like saying A = A. It is true but not worth saying.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, there's the issue. The Greek word used for "nation" is ethnos, not ethos. Those are two very different words.

The word is still not g---. It is not generation. (My computer refuses to let me type the e--- word or the g---- word. It constantly changes it so my apologies.)

This is how and the number of times genea is translated in the KJV: generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1.

So 41 times out of 42 times, it is translated as pertaining to a people living during a certain period, not a race. The one "nation" you did not specify so I cannot comment.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/genea.html

So, as I've been saying, just because it translates as "generation" in Matt 24:34, doesn't mean that that is necessarily the case. That was simply the choice of meaning chosen by the KJV translators.

But those words e----- and g----- are not close in meaning and so why can you say that is does not necessarily mean a group of people living in a certain time period. How can you justify that when the definitions you gave me are 41 out of 42 as "generation" living in a particular time that is over (mostly) and not "ethnic group" that are not gone?

The bolded portions, hence why I bolded them. You first state: "What Jesus is saying is the Jews will not die until all this is fulfilled," which implies they will die once all is fulfilled. But then you state: "I doubt any christian thinks the Jews will all one day pass away." But that is what you think, according to the first quote.

No, you need to understand that I am taking your position and THINKING about it pushing it to conclusions you need to embrace if you believe the first. If you think Jesus was saying that the Jews will not pass away as an ethnic group UNTIL they prophesy is fulfilled, then that plain conclusion is that after it is, they will. Otherwise why would Jesus say such a nonsensical thing that this ethic group will not pass away. What ethnic groups routinely pass away?

Yes, in the translations, that is the whole point. I have at least twice given the different meanings for genea, which can easily be confirmed by checking the links I provided, which was rather the point in providing them. Or, if you have Strong's on hand, check in there and it will confirm also.

I don't discuss with links. You gave me 41 out of 42 translations where it was meaning a group of people living during a certain time frame (normal life span) and NOT an ethnic group.

All translators must choose between meanings of a given word and, try as they might, their personal views are going to influence them to some degree, although it is mostly context that determines the meaning.

I'll help you out since you seem not to want to do the proper studying:

Well, I could say that I am helping you out because you do not want to do the proper thinking about your position, but I won't.

Act 14:16 Who in times [genea] past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

Yes, that was a time period in which people lived who did their own thing NOT an ethnic group.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time [genea] hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Again, a period when people lived who are now dead who did....... but not an ethnic group that no longer exists.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages [genea] was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Yes, again a time period (ticks of the clock) when something happened that is now history, not an ethnic group.

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages [genea], world without end. Amen.

Yes, time period not ethnic groups. Throughout the ages is definitely a time period, although long.

Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation [genea], among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Now we cannot say that this usage is referring to an ethnic group or we will be called bigots. There is no ethnic group on the planet that are all perverse. None. But, there are or were generations of people who behaved very badly so as one can almost call the whole generation perverse. Doesn't mean their offspring were or that their ancestors were.

Matches exactly with the numbers I've given and can be confirmed by the references I provided.

I loved it. I learned so much by reading your scriptures and seeing that all of them, 100%, pertain to people living at a certain period of time, most of which has now "passed away."

Obviously that is not what I mean. But, if you mean what you said earlier, that "What Jesus is saying is the Jews will not die until all this is fulfilled," and you believe all is fulfilled, then all the Jews must be dead.

I believe Jesus was referring to that generation, not the race. That Jesus was talking about the race is your position with the logical outcome that you must think or not think at all about the logical outcome (that once fulfilled all Jews pass away.) My comment on most christians who hold this eschatology is that they do not think much about what it means to believe that.

The main issue is that all of what Jesus said has certainly not been fulfilled, if only because he has not yet returned.

On this we agree. How he comes we likely disagree. You probably think it will be violent and I think it will be peaceful.

Firstly, I haven't once said "genera" because the word is "genea." Secondly, the first time I said genea was translated other than "generation" I didn't provide a reference. However, twice after that I did provide the reference as well as the text from the reference, and you even quoted those both times, including in this post I'm replying to. I have now provided it a third time.

My mistake on the word. Sometimes it is me and sometimes it is spell check. I have no doubt g----- (my computer refuses to let me type what you wrote so this is spell check) means generation meaning a people living in a particular time period same as we use it to mean.

Are you even reading what I am writing? I have agreed with you on this. That was one of the main points I initially made. Why do you want to argue about things we agree on?

My misunderstanding. I apologize.

Yes, but that isn't what I was asking. You inserted "Christians" when we were talking about Jews. Why? It makes it sound like you're implying that "this generation," the one that "will not pass away," is referring to Christians.

I inserted christians because Jesus was talking to Christians about what they needed to know and do. He was not writing eschatology studies. He was warning them so they could take courage when it happens and so they know what to do to save their lives. He was not going to rescue them out. They had to pay attention and leave town as the signs took place.

Actually, that is an interesting argument, considering he is speaking to his followers. I'll have to think about it and do some study.

However, it still leaves us with the problem that you think my current position holds: 'But again, when it "clearly has all come to pass" will all the Jews around the world then "pass away?"' That argument cuts both ways. You have to deal with it as well.

Well, it is not my position as I think he was saying those living then hearing his words will not all be dead when those catastrophic things take place. His second coming has no signs, no warnings, no getting ready. (I have always wanted to ask those who tell others to get ready for Jesus' coming what exactly does that mean. I am getting ready for Christmas and I can tell anyone what that means. How does not "get ready" for the second coming?)

I have enjoyed this exchange. I am usually on my phone going or coming from work so that typing is limited, spell check is limited and the writing small so I sometimes misread a thing or two. My apologies for that. Today I am on the real computer, ten figures instead of just one finger.

 

[bellgamin]

Dorothy Mae wrote:

Well, I sincerely doubt jr high and high school students understand Matthew 24 better than theologians.

God did not give us His Bible so that only theologians or priests or pastors could understand it.

Olden-days Roman Catholic doctrine took the elitist view that the Bible could only be grasped by a select few. It was wrong to hold that view then and it is equally wrong today. 1Cor 2.14

I am NOT saying that untaught high school & college students have equal Bible understanding with those who are called to advanced, formal Biblical studies, &/or who are gifted in knowledge, wisdom, teaching, et al (see 1Cor chapter 12, especially vss 8, 28-29).

What I am striving to communicate, based on experience as student and teacher, is this: ANY Bible student is quite capable of learning the tools to exegete/understand Mt 24 or any other portion of Scripture, to the full extent that God deems appropriate for that student's spiritual maturity (NOT temporal age), and which accords with His purposes for that student at that particular stage of that student's life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTW, the view that all prophecies of Mt 24 have already been fulfilled is preterist eschatology. I do not agree with that view. However, if one wants to know more about preterism, & its pros & cons, there are several excellent resources. I will link just a few:

Concept of Preterism: HERE
Pro: 1, 2, 3
Con: 1, 2, 3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do have preterist friends. We differ on eschatology but we are all believers on Jesus as God, Son of God, Lord, and Savior. For that reason, we are brethren. To wit: Without Jesus, a 100% correct eschatology (whatever that may be) will not gain one's salvation (John 3.3, 5). With Jesus, a 100% wrong eschatology will, in NO way, bar one's salvation. (John 3.16).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think Jesus' point is these things are going to happen. The world isn't just going to slip away without these things happening. They are going to happen, no matter what.

Matthew 24:34-35
34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

He makes the same point in Matthew 5:17-18

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Which, by the way, further supports the interpretation of Matthew 24:34 that Jesus was talking about the age not passing away until all these things have happened.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy Mae wrote:God did not give us His Bible so that only theologians or priests or pastors could understand it.

Doesn’t mean teenagers are the best options regarding understanding.

Olden-days Roman Catholic doctrine took the elitist view that the Bible could only be grasped by a select few. It was wrong to hold that view then and it is equally wrong today. 1Cor 2.14

Correct but it doesn’t mean 10th graders are the best source.

I am NOT saying that untaught high school & college students have equal Bible understanding with those who are called to advanced, formal Biblical studies, &/or who are gifted in knowledge, wisdom, teaching, et al (see 1Cor chapter 12, especially vss 8, 28-29).

I agree although I’ve known educated theologians who knew less than high school students.

What I am striving to communicate, based on experience as student and teacher, is this: ANY Bible student is quite capable of learning the tools to exegete/understand Mt 24 or any other portion of Scripture, to the full extent that God deems appropriate for that student's spiritual maturity (NOT temporal age), and which accords with His purposes for that student at that particular stage of that student's life.

I agree. Depends upon character.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTW, the view that all prophecies of Mt 24 have already been fulfilled is preterist eschatology. I do not agree with that view. However, if one wants to know more about preterism, & its pros & cons, there are several excellent resources. I will link just a few:

Concept of Preterism: HERE
Pro: 1, 2, 3
Con: 1, 2, 3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do have preterist friends. We differ on eschatology but we are all believers on Jesus as God, Son of God, Lord, and Savior. For that reason, we are brethren. To wit: Without Jesus, a 100% correct eschatology (whatever that may be) will not gain one's salvation (John 3.3, 5). With Jesus, a 100% wrong eschatology will, in NO way, bar one's salvation. (John 3.16).

I agree. I was myself amazed at how the horrible events of Rev and Matt 24 were fulfilled in the first century. But while they don’t affect salvation, it was nice to jettison the bogeyman eschatology.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Dorothy Mae ,

How does Preterism say the two emboldened parts in the passage below are already fulfilled?

Matthew 24:30-35

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32Now learn this lessone from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation (whatever that actually is) will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

 

[Tweeter]

That generation saw the fulfillment of those prophesies with their own eyes. That’s the most obvious.

Hey, I see you're fighting the good fight. I might add, against a futurism that is incompatible with the Christian religion. I figured out long ago that people don't care about facts or reason. And, so, you can't win debates with facts and reason.

For example, take the meaning of "this generation." "This" is used to indicate something present (or just mentioned). "Generation" nativity, which has been begotten, ranks of natural descent, multitude of men living at the same time, an age (occupied be each successive generation) -- all more or less the same thing.

Grammatically, "this generation" means the people alive in the first century. Good luck finding a futurist who'll directly address this grammatical fact. They just arbitrarily redefine words. "This" is read as "that." "Generation" might be read as a race. But, even then there's still grammatical nonsense and this also denies that Jesus answered the disciples question of when "all" these events would take place.

However, you never have trouble finding futurists who'll repeat ad nauseum their doctrine, as if chanting it proves anything.

 

[Tweeter]

Dorothy Mae ,

How does Preterism say the two emboldened parts in the passage below are already fulfilled?

Matthew 24:30-35

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32Now learn this lessone from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation (whatever that actually is) will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Most futurists are pre-trib rapture. Matthew 24:31, if that's the rapture, then it's post-trib. I've noticed since the internet became big, more futurist teachers are becoming post-trib. As in the case of ex-con Jim Baker switching, it appears to be all about money, selling tribulation survival supplies over the internet. So, I guess you're not holding out for the never-imminent imminent rapture? LOL!

To make v31 the rapture, you have to read the rapture in. There's nothing there about people being snatched away while living (the thing that makes the rapture the rapture). And, the rapture doctrine is that Jesus will snatch people away, not that angels (different agent) will gather (different verb, if you're paying attention) people. You know, you don't deserve a response when you can't present your case in your own words. Instead, you dump verses and demand an explanation. Explanation for what? You think that's the rapture in v31, then use your words and say so, and make you case. You see, I don't really know what you're asking. And, I wonder if you know what you're asking.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hey, I see you're fighting the good fight. I might add, against a futurism that is incompatible with the Christian religion. I figured out long ago that people don't care about facts or reason. And, so, you can't win debates with facts and reason.

For example, take the meaning of "this generation." "This" is used to indicate something present (or just mentioned). "Generation" nativity, which has been begotten, ranks of natural descent, multitude of men living at the same time, an age (occupied be each successive generation) -- all more or less the same thing.

Grammatically, "this generation" means the people alive in the first century. Good luck finding a futurist who'll directly address this grammatical fact. They just arbitrarily redefine words. "This" is read as "that." "Generation" might be read as a race. But, even then there's still grammatical nonsense and this also denies that Jesus answered the disciples question of when "all" these events would take place.

However, you never have trouble finding futurists who'll repeat ad nauseum their doctrine, as if chanting it proves anything.

Some of them have a lot at stake in defending futurism. If they’ve done Youtube clips or written books, then their pride will not let them desire to know the truth cost what it may. It just costs too much to even explore. Truth is very expensive, especially to the pride.

The Bereans wanted truth. Most people have already made up
their minds. Truth is not of value. Being right is. Pride pure. Problem is God resists the proud.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How does Preterism say the two emboldened parts in the passage below are already fulfilled?

Matthew 24:30-35

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

you don't deserve a response when you can't present your case in your own words. Instead, you dump verses and demand an explanation. Explanation for what? You think that's the rapture in v31, then use your words and say so, and make you case. You see, I don't really know what you're asking. And, I wonder if you know what you're asking.

Dorothy Mae , Tweeter ,

How did 'this generation', whoever they are/were, see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory?

How was 'this generation', whoever they are/were, gathered from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other?

 

[Tweeter]

Well, there's the issue. The Greek word used for "nation" is ethnos, not ethos. Those are two very different words.


This is how and the number of times genea is translated in the KJV: generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/genea.html

So, as I've been saying, just because it translates as "generation" in Matt 24:34, doesn't mean that that is necessarily the case. That was simply the choice of meaning chosen by the KJV translators.


The bolded portions, hence why I bolded them. You first state: "What Jesus is saying is the Jews will not die until all this is fulfilled," which implies they will die once all is fulfilled. But then you state: "I doubt any christian thinks the Jews will all one day pass away." But that is what you think, according to the first quote.


Yes, in the translations, that is the whole point. I have at least twice given the different meanings for genea, which can easily be confirmed by checking the links I provided, which was rather the point in providing them. Or, if you have Strong's on hand, check in there and it will confirm also.

All translators must choose between meanings of a given word and, try as they might, their personal views are going to influence them to some degree, although it is mostly context that determines the meaning.

I'll help you out since you seem not to want to do the proper studying:

Act 14:16 Who in times [genea] past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

The Greek genea always means means the English word "generation." Acts 14:16 is correctly translated, "In generations past..." Note, the word here is plural, geneas. The biblical word never means a race or a people. If genea could mean race here, then Acts would say "In races past..." Does that make sense to you? Nothing in your doctrines make sense to me.

Even if genea could mean a race or a people, that definition makes no sense in Matthew 24. "This race will not pass until..."? That's standard tactic, from their chest of tactics to do violence to the Bible, of futurists to redefine terms and make the Bible meaningless, such as effectively denying that Jesus answered the question he was replying to, "when will all these things happen?"

Do you think Jesus needed to say that Jews would still exist when God displays his wrath against them, the reason for destroying Jerusalem? Do you think Jesus needed to say that the Jews would still exist when Jesus said the Jews would persecute Christians and deliver them up to synagogues and prisons? Do you really think Jesus needed to say Jews would still exists because you think Matthew 24 doesn't clearly demand it?

Jesus said his generation would not pass until all the things he mentioned, including he temple's destruction came to pass. Get on board with what the Bible says or continue to follow made up nonsense.

Speaking of made up nonsense, it's made up nonsense that Jews still exist. It's a fact that you can either make a small effort to verity or you can stick you head in a hole in a ground and ignore (no doubt, you'll do the latter). People calling themselves Jews today have no legitimate claim to the identity. If Jesus said Jews would not pass away until all those things happened, Matthew 24 would still have to be fulfilled in the first century.

<mic drop>

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The Greek genea always means means the English word "generation." Acts 14:16 is correctly translated, "In generations past..." Note, the word here is plural, geneas. The biblical word never means a race or a people. If genea could mean race here, then Acts would say "In races past..." Does that make sense to you? Nothing in your doctrines make sense to me.

Even if genea could mean a race or a people, that definition makes no sense in Matthew 24. "This race will not pass until..."? That's standard tactic, from their chest of tactics to do violence to the Bible, of futurists to redefine terms and make the Bible meaningless, such as effectively denying that Jesus answered the question he was replying to, "when will all these things happen?"

Do you think Jesus needed to say that Jews would still exist when God displays his wrath against them, the reason for destroying Jerusalem? Do you think Jesus needed to say that the Jews would still exist when Jesus said the Jews would persecute Christians and deliver them up to synagogues and prisons? Do you really think Jesus needed to say Jews would still exists because you think Matthew 24 doesn't clearly demand it?

Jesus said his generation would not pass until all the things he mentioned, including he temple's destruction came to pass. Get on board with what the Bible says or continue to follow made up nonsense.

Speaking of made up nonsense, it's made up nonsense that Jews still exist. It's a fact that you can either make a small effort to verity or you can stick you head in a hole in a ground and ignore (no doubt, you'll do the latter). People calling themselves Jews today have no legitimate claim to the identity. If Jesus said Jews would not pass away until all those things happened, Matthew 24 would still have to be fulfilled in the first century.

<mic drop>

There are a number of problems for futurists. The idea that when Jesus comes, the race of Jews, millions of them, will all drop dead makes the Nazi extermination camps look tame.

 

[Free]

The Greek genea always means means the English word "generation." Acts 14:16 is correctly translated, "In generations past..." Note, the word here is plural, geneas. The biblical word never means a race or a people. If genea could mean race here, then Acts would say "In races past..." Does that make sense to you? Nothing in your doctrines make sense to me.

It seems you may not understand how translation, language, or grammar work. Firstly, many words have multiple meanings. Secondly, it is context that determines which the meaning, so we cannot just plug in any meaning we wish, as your fallacious argument does. Thirdly, as I said, this is how and the number of times genea is translated in the KJV: generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1.

Here are the definitions of genea:

Definition

fathered, birth, nativity that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation the whole multitude of men living at the same time an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/genea.html

Of course, I only used the KJV because the person I was responding to does. The NASB and NIV translate genea as "kind" in Luke 16:8, which is a better translation than the KJV's (and ESV's) "generation," since it better expresses the point being made:

Luk 16:8 "And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light. (NASB)

Luk 16:8 "The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. (NIV)

So, no, genea does not always mean "generation."

Even if genea could mean a race or a people, that definition makes no sense in Matthew 24. "This race will not pass until..."? That's standard tactic, from their chest of tactics to do violence to the Bible, of futurists to redefine terms and make the Bible meaningless, such as effectively denying that Jesus answered the question he was replying to, "when will all these things happen?"

It does no such thing. The problem for you, as I outline below, is that not all of the things Jesus said would happen to "this generation," or "his generation" as you put it, have happened yet.

Do you think Jesus needed to say that Jews would still exist when God displays his wrath against them, the reason for destroying Jerusalem? Do you think Jesus needed to say that the Jews would still exist when Jesus said the Jews would persecute Christians and deliver them up to synagogues and prisons? Do you really think Jesus needed to say Jews would still exists because you think Matthew 24 doesn't clearly demand it?

I don't think I ever made the argument that it actually means "race," only that it is a possible meaning. Perhaps you need to go back and reread everything I wrote.

Jesus said his generation would not pass until all the things he mentioned, including he temple's destruction came to pass.

Yes, I have made that point. The problem for you is that Jesus also said:

Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (ESV)

It is just after he says that, that he says:

Mat 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
Mat 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (ESV)

Has any of verses 29-31 happened yet? If not, then your argument is in trouble. If so, then this must be heaven, this must be eternal life. Which is it?

Get on board with what the Bible says or continue to follow made up nonsense.

You might want to tone it down a notch or two; your pride is showing.

Speaking of made up nonsense, it's made up nonsense that Jews still exist. It's a fact that you can either make a small effort to verity or you can stick you head in a hole in a ground and ignore (no doubt, you'll do the latter). People calling themselves Jews today have no legitimate claim to the identity. If Jesus said Jews would not pass away until all those things happened, Matthew 24 would still have to be fulfilled in the first century.

Antisemitism is not welcome on these forums. Neither are personal attacks.

<mic drop>

Experts disagree as to the meaning of "this generation" in this passage, as well as other things, which is rather my point. You would do well to have some humility and not be so certain that you have the answers.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It seems you may not understand how translation, language, or grammar work. Firstly, many words have multiple meanings. Secondly, it is context that determines which the meaning, so we cannot just plug in any meaning we wish, as your fallacious argument does. Thirdly, as I said, this is how and the number of times genea is translated in the KJV: generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1.

Here are the definitions of genea:

Definition

fathered, birth, nativity that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation the whole multitude of men living at the same time an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/genea.html

Do you know that English words have many meanings? This is common in languages. Which meaning fits is in the context.

Of course, I only used the KJV because the person I was responding to does. The NASB and NIV translate genea as "kind" in Luke 16:8, which is a better translation than the KJV's (and ESV's) "generation," since it better expresses the point being made:

Luk 16:8 "And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light. (NASB)

Luk 16:8 "The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. (NIV)

So, no, genea does not always mean "generation."

So is it your position that all the racial Jews will die all at once or bit by bit “when these things” start happening? You do then embrace that at the end all the genetic Jews will be dead having “passed away” right? That’s your translation right?

It does no such thing. The problem for you, as I outline below, is that not all of the things Jesus said would happen to "this generation," or "his generation" as you put it, have happened yet.

Yes they did.

I don't think I ever made the argument that it actually means "race," only that it is a possible meaning. Perhaps you need to go back and reread everything I wrote.

So what do you say? Generation or race? Will you choose?

Yes, I have made that point. The problem for you is that Jesus also said:

Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

That happened. It’s a common Jewish idiom.

Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It’s tribes of the land and the earth doesn’t have many tribes in any case. I don’t belong to a tribe and I doubt anyone here does. So no tribes mourning is now possible except for native Americans. They are in tribes.

Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (ESV)

Happening as we speak but the word is “messengers.”

It is just after he says that, that he says:

Mat 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
Mat 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (ESV)

Yup, exactly as foretold.

Has any of verses 29-31 happened yet?

Yes

If not, then your argument is in trouble. If so, then this must be heaven, this must be eternal life. Which is it?


You might want to tone it down a notch or two; your pride is showing.


Antisemitism is not welcome on these forums. Neither are personal attacks.


Experts disagree as to the meaning of "this generation" in this passage, as well as other things, which is rather my point.

Well, experts disagree as to whether Jesus was the Son of God. Experts disagree as to if there is a God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you know that English words have many meanings? This is common in languages. Which meaning fits is in the context.

So is it your position that all the racial Jews will die all at once or bit by bit “when these things” start happening? You do then embrace that at the end all the genetic Jews will be dead having “passed away” right? That’s your translation right?

Yes they did.

So what do you say? Generation or race? Will you choose?

That happened. It’s a common Jewish idiom.

It’s tribes of the land and the earth doesn’t have many tribes in any case. I don’t belong to a tribe and I doubt anyone here does. So no tribes mourning is now possible except for native Americans. They are in tribes.

Happening as we speak but the word is “messengers.”

Yup, exactly as foretold.

Yes

Well, experts disagree as to whether Jesus was the Son of God. Experts disagree as to if there is a God.

'Age' is the only definition that fits the context of what has, and has not happened yet in the passage.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't think I ever made the argument that it actually means "race," only that it is a possible meaning. Perhaps you need to go back and reread everything I wrote.

D, you really do need to go back and read what he wrote.