Truth and heresy

[Cassian]

a very valid point which is of lots truth. we have down to a T when it comes to the Bible. we have all kind tools at our finger tips that makes us educated. leaves out discernment if a man has a B.A degree or higher in ministry. the church will swallow that degree like a fish bites on a worm on a hook. i am not against education .but it has been replaced for the anointing . i know of people with a grade school level education that know the word and can preach it. of course this man is in his late 70,s

But how do you determine something is heresy? Or how does scripture determine if something is heresy?

 

[Kaliani]

But how do you determine something is heresy? Or how does scripture determine if something is heresy?

What method do YOU, Cassian, use to unmask heresy?

 

[twinc]

And therefore let us never forget that it is not our own understanding that we must rely on, but the Holy Spirit's gift of discernment.

Thank you all.

Kaliani - before you go - it seems you are not Christian - Truth can only be revealed by God and not by flesh and blood as we are informed by Christ - so as was revealed to Peter then is also now - so where Peter is Truth is for some say this and some say that and some say this that and the other - twinc

 

[Mitspa]

Kaliani - before you go - it seems you are not Christian - Truth can only be revealed by God and not by flesh and blood as we are informed by Christ - so as was revealed to Peter then is also now - so where Peter is Truth is for some say this and some say that and some say this that and the other - twinc

Well it seems you did not read the rules of this forum?
Peter is not the Rock, Christ is the Rock!
Peter was the first stone laid upon the Rock of Ages! Christ Jesus!

We all know how you who "claim" Peter, deny what he taught!

1Pe 2:4

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6

Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 

[ezra]

But how do you determine something is heresy? Or how does scripture determine if something is heresy?

Isiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Butch5]

This goes for any and every translation.

Agreed, my point was that translations that are more literal allow the reader to determine what is being said, more so than the translator. I'd rather be presented with the raw data and make my determinations based on that than having someone else determine the data for me.

 

[Butch5]

Ok. I don't understand what difference this makes to my argument. The Bereans checked Scripture to see if "these things" were true, not to settle a doctrinal dispute. Paul "went into the Jewish synagogue" when he arrived. The Bereans were Jews and "searched the Scriptures daily" to see if what Paul preached about the Messiah (or His kingdom) squared with prophecies concerning Him. Acts 15 shows how doctrinal disputes are settled.

My point is that the Truth is not going to be opposed to the Scriptures. If someone comes preaching things to me I am going to search the Scriptures to see if they are true. I think what may be the source of the confusion is that most Christians today don't preach the gospel of the kingdom, they preach a watered down believe Jesus died for your sins and you'll be saved gospel. That's just a small part of the gospel that the apostles taught. As a matter of fact Jesus didn't even teach it. If someone is preaching the Gospel they'll be preaching kingdom of God, not just believe Jesus died for your sins and you'll be saved.

 

[Butch5]

Anyway, while I'm certainly not King James Only, yet the sort of translation that the King James represents is, in my humble view, basically reliable.

Neither am I and I agree with you.

 

[Cassian]

Isiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Which says absolutely nothing about how scripture or a person can determine heresy?

 

[Kaliani]

Which says absolutely nothing about how scripture or a person can determine heresy?

I think it's the Holy Spirit's gift of discernment that enables a person to USE scripture to distinguish truth from heresy.

Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit use scripture which He inspired to help us identify what He did NOT inspire, i.e. heresy?

Am I missing something? Please share.

 

[Mitspa]

I think it's the Holy Spirit's gift of discernment that enables a person to USE scripture to distinguish truth from heresy.

Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit use scripture which He inspired to help us identify what He did NOT inspire, i.e. heresy?

Am I missing something? Please share.

Good answer Kaliani!



1Jn 2:26



These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27



But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"Trust" the Spirit of Truth!

 

[eddif]

Hi all. I have a question that is very personal to me.

Is discernment earned through academic studies? I have not the most sophisticated intellect and many important doctrines seem to require great erudition to understand. It frightens me that Christians keep calling doctrines - eucharist, rapture, and many others - heresies. Yet they are put forward by other Christians.

I need discernment. Who are the blind leading the blind? Where is the truth?

James 1:5 If any man lack wisdom let him ask God...
It does not matter if you speak Greek, Latin, German etc; it does not matter if you are a slave or free; Christian or Jew; Male or Female etc; Just ask God.

God can use revelation, study, others, dreams, visions to reveal the answer.

I watch folks work crossword puzzles. Some just think, some ask others, some use dictionaries, some use everything available to get the answer.

Seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be opened to you.

There are a few places that have heresys kind of listed, but it takes work to get them:
Job tells that the friends are not telling the truth. So the friends are spreading heresys (they sound like what some say today). God says Job is telling the truth and although his words are not in vogue today he must be telling the truth. Study Job, and contrast Job and his friends words. Use nature to open understanding (God quotes creation in Job).
Revelation has letters to the churches that tells the good and the bad in each church. The bad will send you to many places in the bible to understand what is going on, but to track heresy you have to study (I do not study enough).
The statements just before the stoning of Stephen give false actions / thoughts.
Jesus tells wrong thoughts / actions.

Led by the Holy Spirit there are all sorts of ways to find error. Just watch out that when (in Love) you present the truth, you are ready to have some folks get a little rough with you.

Just because you get knowledge about heresy, that does not mean you have wisdom to apply that knowledge.

eddif

But how do you determine something is heresy? Or how does scripture determine if something is heresy?

Hints above

I think it's the Holy Spirit's gift of discernment that enables a person to USE scripture to distinguish truth from heresy.

Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit use scripture which He inspired to help us identify what He did NOT inspire, i.e. heresy?

Am I missing something? Please share.

The Holy Spirit has the ability to use a lot of different methods. Discernment is one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. An individuals calling will decide, to some extent, what methods he uses.


eddif

 

[Cassian]

I think it's the Holy Spirit's gift of discernment that enables a person to USE scripture to distinguish truth from heresy.

Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit use scripture which He inspired to help us identify what He did NOT inspire, i.e. heresy?

Am I missing something? Please share.

Because He did not give us just scriptures. Scriptures is actually fourth on the list.

Christ is first, second is His Church, His Body, then He entrusted to the Apostles, the foundation of the Church, his revelation. Then finally we have the scriptures which are a witness to all of the above.

No place in scripture does it ever say that the Holy Spirit gives discernment as to what the scriptures means to individuals. In fact, it states just the opposite. No revelation (prophecy) shall be given to indiviudals for private interpretation.

Most important is that history has 500 years of sola scriptura, meaning the individual has supposedly discerned what scripture means and after 500 years the confusion and division is thundering, deafening. So, obviously it does not work as you state.

Also, how can scripture teach or show heresy, when historically, all heresy comes from scripture by the interpretation of individual men.

 

[Cassian]

James 1:5 If any man lack wisdom let him ask God...
It does not matter if you speak Greek, Latin, German etc; it does not matter if you are a slave or free; Christian or Jew; Male or Female etc; Just ask God.

God can use revelation, study, others, dreams, visions to reveal the answer.

I watch folks work crossword puzzles. Some just think, some ask others, some use dictionaries, some use everything available to get the answer.

Seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be opened to you.

There are a few places that have heresys kind of listed, but it takes work to get them:
Job tells that the friends are not telling the truth. So the friends are spreading heresys (they sound like what some say today). God says Job is telling the truth and although his words are not in vogue today he must be telling the truth. Study Job, and contrast Job and his friends words. Use nature to open understanding (God quotes creation in Job).
Revelation has letters to the churches that tells the good and the bad in each church. The bad will send you to many places in the bible to understand what is going on, but to track heresy you have to study (I do not study enough).
The statements just before the stoning of Stephen give false actions / thoughts.
Jesus tells wrong thoughts / actions.

Led by the Holy Spirit there are all sorts of ways to find error. Just watch out that when (in Love) you present the truth, you are ready to have some folks get a little rough with you.

Just because you get knowledge about heresy, that does not mean you have wisdom to apply that knowledge.

eddif




Hints above


The Holy Spirit has the ability to use a lot of different methods. Discernment is one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. An individuals calling will decide, to some extent, what methods he uses.


eddif

I think we are speaking about two different concepts.
YOu are speaking about application, the living of God's revelation. If you do not understand God's revelation you cannot apply it correctly either.

The subject of heresy is teaching an erroneous doctrine that is not part of God's revelation to man.

An example, take Arius who developed the idea from scripture that God was God and that the Son was created and was not co-eternal with the Father. This was declared hesesy because the Church had always understood the Trinity as One God, consubstantial, and co-eternal, but three Persons.

This is not an application or understanding of what scripture means, but the very essence of God's revelation to man about Himself. If we do not understand God as He has revealed Himself, then our understanding or application of our understanding will not reflect the correct God.

In giving this example and there are others available, explain to me just how scripture made this determination when both sides used scripture.

 

[Mitspa]

Because He did not give us just scriptures. Scriptures is actually fourth on the list.

Christ is first, second is His Church, His Body, then He entrusted to the Apostles, the foundation of the Church, his revelation. Then finally we have the scriptures which are a witness to all of the above.

No place in scripture does it ever say that the Holy Spirit gives discernment as to what the scriptures means to individuals. In fact, it states just the opposite. No revelation (prophecy) shall be given to indiviudals for private interpretation.

Most important is that history has 500 years of sola scriptura, meaning the individual has supposedly discerned what scripture means and after 500 years the confusion and division is thundering, deafening. So, obviously it does not work as you state.

Also, how can scripture teach or show heresy, when historically, all heresy comes from scripture by the interpretation of individual men.

Joh 14:23

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


1Jn 2:27

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. :biglol

 

[eddif]

John 1:14

John 12:49

eddif

 

[Kaliani]

Thank you for your answer Cassian.

I started this thread because I wanted to know how to get and use discernment to distinguish truth from lies.

The first people who responded recommended studying scripture. You've made your dissatisfaction with their recommendation very clear.

I humbly ask you now for the second time Cassian, what do you recommend yourself? Help a fellow spiritual traveller out. :

 

[Cassian]

Thank you for your answer Cassian.

I started this thread because I wanted to know how to get and use discernment to distinguish truth from lies.

The first people who responded recommended studying scripture. You've made your dissatisfaction with their recommendation very clear.

I humbly ask you now for the second time Cassian, what do you recommend yourself? Help a fellow spiritual traveller out. :

First, no one has yet explained just how scripture determines heresy. Studying scripture does not determine what is Truth and what is Heresy. A man such as Origin, for example, a great brilliant mind of the early Church, fell into two heresies, yet his exegises of scripture is is profound.

I do it the same way the Church has always done it. They did it with Arius, Nestorius and all the others. They used the rule of faith which is that what has not been believed and practiced from the beginning, by all, everywhere is false.

Thus when I read someone's explanation and ascertain that it does not originate from the beginning, it is false. The converse, is if it was developed by man and has a man's name attached to it, it is also, obviously not from the beginning, thus false. Historically, no man has been able to impose his own interpretation upon scripture or God's revelation to man. In every case, they all originated long after the beginning, and were being imposed by one man's teaching.

 

[twinc]

Well it seems you did not read the rules of this forum?
Peter is not the Rock, Christ is the Rock!
Peter was the first stone laid upon the Rock of Ages! Christ Jesus!

We all know how you who "claim" Peter, deny what he taught!

1Pe 2:4

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6

Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

I repeat that then as now some say this and some say that and some say this that and the other - blessed are you Peter because flesh and blood did not and does not reveal this and that and the other to you but my Father in heaven - twinc

 

[wayseer]

First, no one has yet explained just how scripture determines heresy. Studying scripture does not determine what is Truth and what is Heresy.

Actually studying scripture does produce truth - which is why we have something called the 'canon'.