Truth and heresy

[Mitspa]

I repeat that then as now some say this and some say that and some say this that and the other - blessed are you Peter because flesh and blood did not and does not reveal this and that and the other to you but my Father in heaven - twinc

Yes some men claim Peter? but deny what he taught!

1Ti 4:1


Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


2Pe 2:1


But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

 

[Cassian]

Actually studying scripture does produce truth - which is why we have something called the 'canon'.

Can you give an example of how this works?

 

[dadof10]

My point is that the Truth is not going to be opposed to the Scriptures. If someone comes preaching things to me I am going to search the Scriptures to see if they are true.

I agree. But The standard Protestant doctrine of Sola-scriptura goes way beyond simply checking Scripture to see if a doctrine CONTRADICTS it. SS means that any doctrine NOT FOUND in Scripture is a false doctrine. For instance, do you believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary remained sinless throughout her entire life by a singular act of Grace? There is nothing in Scripture that says that God can't or won't keep someone sinless, yet the majority of Protestants don't believe this harmless doctrine because they don't find it in the pages of Scripture.

This is not what the Bereans were doing. They searched Scripture to see if the "things' concerning Jesus were true, not to settle a doctrinal division. Scripture shows us the Biblical way to discern doctrine in Acts 15, with an council.

I think what may be the source of the confusion is that most Christians today don't preach the gospel of the kingdom, they preach a watered down believe Jesus died for your sins and you'll be saved gospel. That's just a small part of the gospel that the apostles taught. As a matter of fact Jesus didn't even teach it. If someone is preaching the Gospel they'll be preaching kingdom of God, not just believe Jesus died for your sins and you'll be saved.

I agree with most of what you said here, except the part in red. Why do you think Jesus didn't teach "believe Jesus died for your sins and you'll be saved"? Because you can't find it within the pages of Scripture? Certainly He taught things not written in Scripture...Certainly so did the apostles, so there was oral tradition, true doctrine not written down.

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2Thess. 2:15)

Again, where does Scripture teach the doctrine of SS?

 

[Kaliani]

I see no reason why scripture would be the ONLY thing God uses to speak to us.

If all of Heaven cannot contain God, how then can He be contained in a few pages of ancient scripture? Isn't it only logical that the creator (the Holy Spirit) would be above and beyond His creation (holy scripture)?

Perhaps it is irreverence to limit the Spirit of God to speaking solely from His own scripture, at the risk of Him being dismissed as a fraud? There seems to be a danger present there. A grave danger.

 

[smaller]

I see no reason why scripture would be the ONLY thing God uses to speak to us.

If all of Heaven cannot contain God, how then can He be contained in a few pages of scripture? Isn't it only logical that the creator (the Holy Spirit) would be above and beyond His creation (holy scripture)? Perhaps it is irreverence to limit the Spirit of God to speaking solely from his own scripture, at the risk being dismissed as a fraud? There seems to be a danger present there.

Creation itself assuredly speaks to the ways of God. The existence of conscience intentions speak to both good and bad, internally, are are largely recognized by any person, within any person.

s

 

[Kaliani]

Creation itself assuredly speaks to the ways of God. The existence of conscience intentions speak to both good and bad, internally, are are largely recognized by any person, within any person.

s

I'm sorry but after reading this several times, I still can't understand it. Could you speak plainer please?

 

[smaller]

I'm sorry but after reading this several times, I still can't understand it. Could you speak plainer please?

Sorry, I assumed you got the picture that our own hearts tell us both good and bad.

Scripture is no different.

s

 

[Kaliani]

Sorry, I assumed you got the picture that our own hearts tell us both good and bad.

Scripture is no different.

s

OK. So how does this tie in to what I said. (Forgive me, I don't want to risk misunderstanding you.)

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By smaller,


Creation itself assuredly speaks to the ways of God. The existence of conscience intentions speak to both good and bad, internally, are are largely recognized by any person, within any person.

1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

2 Corinthians 3:5-6 "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; WHO ALSO HAS MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE."


John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."


John 14:26 "The Holy Spirit will teach you all things."

 

[Cassian]

1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

2 Corinthians 3:5-6 "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; WHO ALSO HAS MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE."


John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."


John 14:26 "The Holy Spirit will teach you all things."

quoting scripture means nothing unless you explain it within your understanding. Can you explain just how these texts show us what is heresy or Truth?

 

[smaller]

quoting scripture means nothing unless you explain it within your understanding. Can you explain just how these texts show us what is heresy or Truth?

Sacardotalism sometimes accepts convictions of conscience if same convictions are in line with how sacardotalism defines that should be.

The reformation brought, in part, a rejection of sacardotalism, realizing the dispensers and definers of same are also of limited/partialist sights themselves, and in doing so they got a leg up in the category of truth.

Most who have left the sacardotalist systems do so by convictions of conscience.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By Cassian,

quoting scripture means nothing unless you explain it within your understanding. Can you explain just how these texts show us what is heresy or Truth?

Sorry Cassian. I should have provided the context. I was replying to these two posts:

Originally Posted by Kaliani,

I see no reason why scripture would be the ONLY thing God uses to speak to us.

If all of Heaven cannot contain God, how then can He be contained in a few pages of scripture? Isn't it only logical that the creator (the Holy Spirit) would be above and beyond His creation (holy scripture)? Perhaps it is irreverence to limit the Spirit of God to speaking solely from his own scripture, at the risk being dismissed as a fraud? There seems to be a danger present there.

Originally Posted By smaller,

Creation itself assuredly speaks to the ways of God. The existence of conscience intentions speak to both good and bad, internally, are are largely recognized by any person, within any person.

 

[Cassian]

Sorry Cassian. I should have provided the context. I was replying to these two posts:

But those posts have no answer to the topic. In one scripture is being used supposedly to determine heresy, but no one has either explained just how, or given an example which would tell a lot.

The other one is using conscience in determining truth or falsity. If so, then everything is truth to each individual. Even Hitler was able to determine truth by conscience. What he was doing I'm sure he thougth he was right, not wrong.

Neither one is actually addressing the topic.

 

[smaller]

Even Hitler was able to determine truth by conscience. What he was doing I'm sure he thougth he was right, not wrong.

Neither one is actually addressing the topic.

Your sect promotes everyone who believes in Christ as their Savior outside of that sect to potentially burn alive forever, so compared to Hitler he appears to stack up pretty well.

Can you spell conscience, meet hot iron? Can you spell absolute authority corrupts absolutely? Can you spell the press to be the one and only right sacerdotal server becoming the promoter of burning tortures to believers for not submitting?

There are a lot of twisted minds in the realms of 'men' seeking to advance their 'sole subjectively derived' authority beyond their due. If there is a just God such will be the first in line for a taste of their own measures to other believers.

To many those ways and means speak to the evil desires in the consciences of the holders and not to the Love of God in Christ to those who believe. Arrogant drivel at best.

The Spirit of Christ entered men of faith long before your sacerdotal system showed up to claim exclusive rights.

Being kind in my critique.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by smaller,

Originally posted by Cassian,

Even Hitler was able to determine truth by conscience. What he was doing I'm sure he thougth he was right, not wrong.

Neither one is actually addressing the topic.

Your sect promotes everyone who believes in Christ as their Savior outside of that sect to potentially burn alive forever, so compared to Hitler he appears to stack up pretty well.

Indeed!

Men like Nero, Mao Tse-tung, Stalin, and Hitler were among the most horrible killers of men this world has ever known. Yet, the doctrine of eternal torment makes Jesus a trillion times more vicious and vindictive than this quartet put together.

Jesus Christ, that Man whom we love, praise, and worship, that Man who taught that we should forgive four hundred and ninety times a day, that Man who told us that we should love our enemies and bless them that curse us, that Man who died for all men, will never, never forgive ANYONE who has rejected Him in this frail life, or, worse yet, who merely failed to believe on Him during this brief time.

According to these blinded, deluded people, The Creator and Redeemer of the world, will mercilessly torture those who offend Him to the most hideous and incomprehensible degree. And they gleefully tell the world that this pagan and Romish doctrine of eternal torture glorifies HIM!

The fact is, they are UNBELIEVERS - the very unbelievers the Bible speaks of, even though they ignorantly believe the unbelievers the Bible speaks of are "out there" in the unregenerate "world."

The fact is, NO ONE really believes in an eternal burning hell if we are to judge by their actions. If they saw a person in a burning building, they would put forth every effort to save them; they would cry and scream for help; they would be late for work; they would not rest until the victims were rescued. Yet, those who teach eternal torment can spend their hours relaxing in front of the television screen, visiting and feasting upon lavish meals with their friends, and whole days in camping, vacationing, fishing, and playing, and then lay their heads upon a pillow every night and sleep soundly, while, according to their own teaching, countless millions are going to a place trillions upon trillions of times worse than a burning building!

The doctrine of eternal torment is the worst heresy known to man, and the greatest evil in the history of the universe.

 

[Kaliani]

This is my worst nightmare. When Christians say other Christians aren't real Christians. What is a non-Christian supposed to think honestly?

 

[Cassian]

Your sect promotes everyone who believes in Christ as their Savior outside of that sect to potentially burn alive forever, so compared to Hitler he appears to stack up pretty well.

Can you spell conscience, meet hot iron? Can you spell absolute authority corrupts absolutely? Can you spell the press to be the one and only right sacerdotal server becoming the promoter of burning tortures to believers for not submitting?

There are a lot of twisted minds in the realms of 'men' seeking to advance their 'sole subjectively derived' authority beyond their due. If there is a just God such will be the first in line for a taste of their own measures to other believers.

To many those ways and means speak to the evil desires in the consciences of the holders and not to the Love of God in Christ to those who believe. Arrogant drivel at best.

The Spirit of Christ entered men of faith long before your sacerdotal system showed up to claim exclusive rights.

Being kind in my critique.

once again, nothing of substance. A lot of philosophy, nothing scirptural. You have a personal mantra which is meaningless to anyone else, again, hardly scriptural.

 

[smaller]

once again, nothing of substance. A lot of philosophy, nothing scirptural. You have a personal mantra which is meaningless to anyone else, again, hardly scriptural.

Your 'substance' is emblazoned across your forehead and written on your hand to see.

What is your intention of faith other than the intent to burn other believers alive in hell forever for not believing your sect?

Any half wit can read the text and see that we ALL see only in part.

I'd say your determinations are seeing not at all and you wound up as a walking talking spreader of death to your fellow believers, who are really not believers in your dark eyes whatsoever.

s

 

[smaller]

The E.O. has this fancifully made up construct in order to 'be polite' to other people who have been 'led' by God in Christ to believe and to call upon Him Alone as our Savior.

It goes generally like this:

We know where thee church is [them and them alone]

We do not know where it is not.

Yeah, they do not know, see or hear anyone else, even if such state their faith.

The faith of anyone else is 'ONLY' effective upon taking their BRAND.

s

 

[smaller]

This is my worst nightmare. When Christians say other Christians aren't real Christians. What is a non-Christian supposed to think honestly?

The 'entry' price in many 'sects' means to take upon the intentions to burn other believers alive in fire forever.

Ask God in Christ in prayer before taking on any such 'brand.'

I believe that He would answer those questions directly to your heart, and show you how and where to walk.

s