TheLords
Good to hear another positive word against over indoctrinated Christianity. And I too have heard of such believers out there who do things other than fight about things that aren’t really that important in the grand scheme of things.
But can you extend that to a non-Trinitarian? You spent a great deal of time on a thread concerning that issue. Can you accept a non-Trinitarian into your fold of believers? Or would that be too much to ask? To be one with believers in the Spirit alone in spite of a difference in a doctrine considered by many in Christianity, if not most, whether for or against, the most essential of doctrines?
Me, personally, yes I can. I think a non-Trinitarian can be a Christian. However, I also personally think that the followers of Christ are set apart because of the understanding that Jesus Christ is God. If a non-Trinitarian worships Jesus Christ as God, then that is a brother or sister of mine in Christ. For those non-Trinitarian Christians who don't see Christ as God, I believe there is something lacking in their understanding of God and here it's not so black and white for me. If I met someone who did not believe, know, see Christ as God, my heart wouldn't be so open to them. Truth be told, I would be afraid of getting burned (If one who knows Jesus as God can burn you, how much more so one who does not?). I would take them on an individual basis. We are growing and learning all the time. What we believe now about the Word, we see differently in 5, 10, 15 years. I think there is time for many to come to a full understanding of who Jesus Christ is before their time to pass. Knowing the Lord's heart, I know without a doubt that He can't resist those who love Him and desire to know Him more then they care about their own suffering or pain. I've met many non-Trinitarians with a heart for the Lord who don't see Jesus Christ as God, and I believe that one day they will. I've met others who also don't see Christ as God, but I'm weary of them because of the way they talk and act and I wonder if they even truly know God at all. Like I said it's not a black and white issue.
Being able to declare Jesus Christ as God, is vital to being a believer, without it what sets us apart from Jews or Muslims? The Jews think Christ was a good teacher and rabbi. The Muslims think Jesus was a great prophet. Without the vital understanding that Thomas had in Jesus in John 20:28 "My Lord and my God!" one can't be a
whole follower of Christ.
This may sound like a detraction against your post, but that isn't the intention. The denominational character of Christianity is a chief reason I realized that I didn't want to be a part of Christianity any more. I'm not as angry about it as some Atheists are. But sometimes I wonder if I'm not angry enough. Especially when otherwise well meaning Christians are determined to practice Biblical interpretation, the reason behind the denominational character of Christianity. It may seem I overemphasize the matter. But it's only because I think it needs to be emphasized. Every once in a while, it’s the one who’s constant that’s heard.
I think you display a righteous anger towards the brokenness of the Body. I respect you, although, I don't agree with the way you go about expressing yourself. You see, you are a believer! A follower of Christ, who sees the Word of God as the Word of God and Christianity as a man-made religion... and I agree with you. Pure and undefiled religion is to look after widows and orphans and keep ourselves unstained by the evil of the world. (James 1:27, paraphrased) That's it. That's the organized religion Christ left us with. The rest of men's traditions are just that traditions. Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit of a traditional girl. I'll be wearing white on my wedding day (even though it has nothing to do with any Biblical mandate) and celebrating the honorary date of Christ's birth and Resurrection Sunday with any possible future children of mine, but I won't be allowing tradition to dictate my life or use it as a weapon of exclusion or division. Christianity's history is a bittersweet one and really needs to be looked upon as "all good." By that I mean, the understanding that idols (one's pet doctrine) was the cause of so much violence and hatred, and lack of understanding of the Bible and the love of God was the reason of so much Christian persecution against others. It's awful and it's terrible and is shameful, but it's a reminder for us not to be like them. In fact, my heart feels so much for these shameless televangelist stealing money from the poor, or these sexual predators within the Church, or these famous preachers/organizations steeped in sin and spiritual abuse. I ache for them worse than I ache for the lost, why? Because, the day of judgement will be a million times worse for them then it will be for the atheist, if they don't repent. The atheist doesn't know God, His love and mercy, or His message of love sent to us in Christ. The one who calls Himself a servant, follower, believer of Christ who is abusing children, has heard the Gospel of Love and gone so far as to perpetrate vile evil in His Name. I know I'm not saying it so eloquently as to express the sheer amazement I feel towards the complete and utter disrespect of God such people who call themselves His have, but I hope you can understand it. How these people can have no fear of God deeply shocks me. Then, on the other hand, I believe our Christian history passed on to us through tradition is a thing of beauty. We see how others saw God and what they taught and how they led their lives and we can be deeply enriched by it. It's a balance really. I don't agree with throwing the baby out with the bath water. Within Christianity we are split into three--the babes, the meat eaters, and the elders. We need each other. And all this to bring me around back to the point I started with, I don't agree with the way you express yourself in terms of rejecting Christianity. You have been a kind, respectful, gentle man since the day you came here, so I hope you see the respect I have for you as I say these next words. This has been on my heart for some time now. I, in the real world, was like you for some time. When someone asked me if I was a Christian I would say no, that I was a follower of Christ. I kept thinking about Ghandi, and his famous words about Christianity/Christians and I didn't want to be that Christian. But, as time went on the Lord convicted my heart. I had let someone else trying to shame me ("I would be a Christian if it wasn't for Christians") work. The Lord explained to me that I was looking at this Ghandi picture the wrong way. He told me that Ghandi had an opportunity to change things! That, he, could have taken on the title of "Christian" (greek for little Christ, modern for follower of Christ) and showed the world what true, undefiled, and pure "Christianity" looked like. (Love, Joy, Peace, Faithfulness, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Self Control). That understanding really changed my heart. FC--you're not a former Christian when we look at Christian as meaning "follower of Christ", but what you truly are is a Former Old Man (as in old natured man). You have died to the division that causes us all grief in Christ, and have allowed Him to give you a new nature that so deeply yearns for unity in Christ for all of us. You now have the opportunity to change hearts and minds and be a powerful tool for Christ in this manner. But, by rejecting our modern understanding of "Christian=follower of Christ" you cause others to be weary of you. "Oh no, not another possibly angry, hateful Christian turned atheist who is here to tell us about how nice and polite they are and then insult us as politely as possible every chance they get" is what I believe many think when a new atheist joins the board. I hope it's something for you to consider. The Lord showed me that by rejecting the title "Christian" I was shaming other believers, "Oh, no I'm not like
those Christians who hurt other people!" I was unconsciously telling others. Then the Lord brought me to repentance and showed me that I had the opportunity to change things. If someone met a hurtful, hateful, divisive Christian and that was the only knowledge of Christ they had, then I had the opportunity to call myself a Christian and change their minds on what it truly meant to follower Christ. His understanding changed me, and I hope it speaks to you.
I wouldn't wish the suffering of those in the Mideast and in China and in Africa on any Western Christian for one simple reason. Most of them couldn't take it. They would even more think that God has abandoned them. The Christians in the West simply aren't ready for that. And maybe that's why they haven't had that kind of suffering brought upon them as yet. And there have been those for a lot of years who have thought that it was coming to America very soon. One has to wonder how ready to die for the faith a desk bound paper pusher really is. They may think they're ready for the field, to get down and dirty like Paul did. But without the proper training in more than interpretations or milk, how would they fare?
As far as suffering, I certainly don't wish suffering on the Western Church. When I think of the suffering hitting the West, I think of the 7 years of trials and tribulations. So for me, I see it as a ways away, but I do see it as the only thing that can really change us. Christ's suffering changes us for the better if we let it. I also see it as a two edged sword on the one hand I agree that not many will stand to suffer for Christ, but I see it as good, those on the fence will be made to choose and those with cheap faith or wolves in sheep costume will fall away, allowing those truly united in Christ to come together. It's easier to trust your brother or sister in Christ, when the untrustworthy ones are weeded out in time of war. Yet, at the same time, I think of 9/11 and how so many "spoiled, western, entitled" Christians gave their lives to help others or to stay with others so they wouldn't die alone. That's love. We really don't know what we're made of until we are forced to put our actions where our words are.
It was that second YouTube piece that I identified with the most. It’s true that darkness reigns in many places as the first piece brings out, sometimes in places we would least expect. But what he said in that second piece is exactly my understanding of why darkness reigns in such a way. Jesus is the truth. Not our interpretations of what the Bible says. In spite of those who contend that without a proper interpretation of the Bible it’s impossible to know Christ as the truth. I’ve known babes in Christ who knew Christ more and better than those who thought they had the proper interpretation of the Bible. The Pharisees thought they had the proper interpretation of the Bible. Did they know Christ?
When Christianity as a whole sees that, it will lose it’s denominational character and its human nature because it will begin to walk by the Spirit, and by the teaching of the real teacher of truth, the one who is truth. The practice of closed communion over doctrinal differences would be a thing of the past. And I would gladly become a part of that fold, of that community.
FC
I think you're absolutely right. It's the devil's smartest plan. I remember sitting in a history class while my atheist professor bashed Christianity to pieces with vile hatred. Ok, what else is new? I thought. Then one day he did something strange, he gave the floor to a Muslim student to talk about Islam and how wonderful it was for a good half and hour. I sat their stunned. Aren't atheists supposed to hate all religions? The only reason the teacher cut off this Muslim student was because he was boring all of us! But, the Lord crept in and spoke to my heart... "The Lord's, don't you see it as a smart tactic, that Satan would destroy the Truth (of Christ) while upholding and honoring the lie?" I'm certainly not stating it as beautifully as the Lord, but that fell into my heart like a 2x4. Does Satan attack the lies or does he uphold and honor them? So, where does he attack the most--Christianity because that is where the Gospel of Christ is expressed. So, he goes after us, and he destroys from within and we suffer, but praise God, all his evil works are turned for our own good because of Jesus Christ. So, what happened with this class? The Lord gave me an opportunity to speak on the last day of class. I didn't speak the Holy Spirit spoke (I'm a shy girl with a Moses mouth) and I don't really remember what I said. But the Lord took 5 minutes and spoke Truth through me to the point that I stunned the class (especially myself) and left my professor speechless so much so that he decided to move on to a new topic.
FC, the powers of darkness are strong, but the love of God is stronger. You, dear brother, have an opportunity to change things, because you so strongly reflect the love of God. You are already apart of the body of Christ. You live in unity with Christ and His Body. Everyone loves to quote that God does not dwell in temples, but they forget that the Church, the Ekklesia, the Bride, the Body is not a temple either, but a group of people united in the Lord to live His kingdom on earth, to love and to heal others who are broken and need to be touched.
The West is full of intellectual understanding of God and the persecuted Church in the East is full of heart understanding of God, when we can reconcile the two within the Church and within ourselves, we become powerful and unstoppable forces of love for God.
Okay, enough of my rambling. ;)
2 you for what you have said as we are the Lords and why do we put the title Christian to our name if we can not understand what the love of Christ is. 