TRUTH

[Slider]

John 4:23-24: But thehour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father inspirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship himmust worship him in spirit and in truth. (KJV)

I’d like to talk about these verses, because I think theyare two of the most important verses in the Bible for us.

The first thing we see is a timestamp. When are we to do this? Well, NOW! Jesus spoke those words to the Samaritan woman 2000 years ago. So it’s either not in our time or it’s longoverdue!

It also identifies what God’s looking for. He says that true worshipers are going to dothis, and He seeks them out. He alsosays that the true worshipers MUST do something. He says they “shallâ€. There is a little wiggle room with the Father“seeking†them, but not when he says they “shall†and they “mustâ€. “Shall†is a pretty powerful word, but “mustâ€is more so. It dictates there is noother choice. If you are going to be atrue worshiper, this is the requirement and the seal that you are one.

This “Must†is that you worship in spirit and in truth.

I cannot comment on when you worship in “spiritâ€. We know that the Holy Ghost is the spirit ofTruth. But how can I possibly gageotherwise if you are putting on a show or are really in the spirit? God knows, I don’t. There are a lot of people “worshiping in thespiritâ€. Speaking in tongues, dancing ashard as David, etc…. Praise God forthat!

But we have a measuring stick when it comes to Truth. That’s what I want to focus on. You can worship in the spirit, but it’s allfor naught if it isn’t in truth. Theopposite is true too. But that’s not myfocus for this conversation.


John 4:23-24 says we must worship in truth. I can’t help but to think if you aren’tworshiping in truth, you are not a true worshiper. Jesus also said, “in vain they do worship me,teaching for doctrine the commandments of menâ€. (Mat 15:9) That verse isinteresting…. It says you can worship Jesus, but it can be wrong. And if you do it wrong, it’s in vain anddoesn’t count!

There will be some folks that want to argue, “contextâ€. We must put John 4:24 in “contextâ€. Ok, do so! What are you going to say? Weshould only worship in Truth if we are a Samaritan? If we are on a mountain? If we are in a temple? If we are a whore? Let me ask you…. When did God EVER say it wasok to worship any other wise than in spirit and in truth? Sure, God winked at ignorance in times past,but he isn’t now.

John 4:24 is a general statement Jesus made that can beinserted in any place in the Bible. Wemust always worship in spirit and in truth! It was true in Genesis, Deuteronimy, Isaiah, Matthew, Romans andRevelation. Look at all the times Godgot pissed off! It was almost alwaysabout “truthâ€.

So people wonder why we fight on this board…. I’m a bigoffender! It’s because I think and knowtruth is very important to God. We arguesports, politics, philosophy, whatever! NONE of them are more important than getting God’s word right! I’ll tell you how to end me from fighting onthese boards: Tell me I’m right, andsubmit to what I say! Do that and I’llleave you alone and won’t have anything to fight for!

Oh, but that can’t be done… And for good reason. Maybe I’m wrong. Go through the scriptures and prove it! That isn’t a challenge, it’s a plea.

I am a Chicago Cub fan…. Sadly, my season is over already…That is the fate of Cub fans. Arguingsports is meaningless to me. Arguing God’sword to get it right it very important. Being a Cub fan doesn’t get me into heaven, but worshiping in truthdoes! Dammit! I want to know the truth! And I want you all to know it too.

So when I argue against Christmas and Easter, don’t lookdown on me as one who “causes divisionâ€. Yea, I’m doing that and Jesus said he did too! If you believe in John 4:24, then you will understand why it’s important tohash this out.


Now if you want to wonder what the Apostles would do… Paulhardly got along with any of them. Johnand Barnabaias, Peter, James the half brother of Jesus…. He argued with all of them.
So you don’t understand why we aren’t displaying “brotherlyloveâ€â€¦. When it comes to truth, weshouldn’t! There is only one truth, andletting a brother dwell in a lie is not love.

 

[George Muller]

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
I think Paul writes very much on this issue. One could say their is nothing good or TRUE in the flesh of man.

 

[Slider]

I think Paul writes very much on this issue. One could say their is nothing good or TRUE in the flesh of man.

Yep... True... Now what does it have to do with this subject? The inward mand is supposed to be all about good and Truth. We do have an inward man.... So I don't care to argue about the man of flesh...

 

[evenifigoalone]

So, if even one iota of your theology is wrong, you can't worship God?

I don't think that's what the verse meant. None of us is 100% correct on anything, including our view on theology and the Bible. God reveals truth to us as we seek it out. But it's not an instant thing. He may reveal that we are mistaken on a certain aspect years later.
I always thought of "in truth" in that verse as meaning in sincerity and pure motives--because if you aren't truly worshiping God, then you're not really worshiping Him at all.

 

[George Muller]

I think Paul writes very much on this issue. One could say their is nothing good or TRUE in the flesh of man.

Yep... True... Now what does it have to do with this subject? The inward mand is supposed to be all about good and Truth. We do have an inward man.... So I don't care to argue about the man of flesh...

Well just thought it was helpful to show that we have much more written on the issue of what it means to "worship in spirit and truth" we worship God based upon the truth of who we are IN SPIRIT, not in flesh. A good example is seen in 1 John?
1Jo 1:8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. FLESH
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. SPIRIT

 

[Deborah13]

Hey Slider, I do agree that the Truth is most important and we all need to know it. We are to be disciples, if we don't know the Truth we cannot share it, in Truth.
So as we study and seek the Truth together here is a scripture that I think we need to remember.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Today I watched a regular online, live service that I usually watch on Thursday afternoons. The teaching was on believing God's Word. The teacher said that there are 2 things (there may be more of coarse) that he believes impedes us from recognizing, believing, and receiving the Truth in God's Word. These 2 things are 2 little men in our gray cells (my term, not his). Jew and Greek or Pharisee and Philosopher. The Pharisee guy points out obey the law and rituals, while the Philosopher seeks out the logic and whys.

The Pharisee, I see as a Martha, busy servicing the Lord, taking care of Him. Then she gets angry "don't you care, Lord" because her sister rests.
The philosopher, well I couldn't think of a good one, unless it is maybe the young ruler, when Jesus tells him to sell everything, he went away sad. I can imagine him saying why, that doesn't make any sense to me at all. Of coarse he wasn't saved as Martha clearly was (I think) so maybe there is more danger for the philosopher type than the Pharisee type. I know I've been guilty of both at different times.

So we need to put these guys to rest, as in dead. As we seek the Truth we need to operate in the above scripture and admit sometimes there is no clear understanding or an answer for why, such as the Trinity, healing, etc. We just believe God.

We need to be more like Mary (Martha's sister) and just rest in the Lord and let Him speak His Truth to us and hopefully through us.
As you said, we need to seek the Truth, hashing it out sometimes, but always with the above scripture in mind.

I like your posts Slider, if sometimes controversial, oh well, you are honest.

 

[tim-from-pa]

So when I argue against Christmas and Easter, don’t lookdown on me as one who “causes divisionâ€. Yea, I’m doing that and Jesus said he did too! If you believe in John 4:24, then you will understand why it’s important tohash this out.


Now if you want to wonder what the Apostles would do… Paulhardly got along with any of them. Johnand Barnabaias, Peter, James the half brother of Jesus…. He argued with all of them.

So you don’t understand why we aren’t displaying “brotherlyloveâ€â€¦. When it comes to truth, weshouldn’t! There is only one truth, andletting a brother dwell in a lie is not love.

Did I hear Christmas and Easter? Count me as one of those who cause division over these holidays as they are traditions of men. What does the bible say?

Paul stated:

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Which fits perfectly well to the observance of Christmas and Easter.

Ironically....... these verses are thrown in my face if I want to keep Yahweh's feasts (I guess to assuage the conscience of them that do not keep them, or worse, maybe just defiant). So.... Yahweh's feasts are "weak and beggarly elements"?

A Prime example of most of Christendom being in obvious error. Even a child knows Paul was talking about pagan holidays, which Christmas and Easter fall into.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I personally don't care whether someone is for or against Christmas and Easter. I was already aware that there are those who do not observe those holidays, and why, long before coming here. And I thought they had some interesting thoughts, though I never came to agree with them myself. To me, it's a matter of mutual respect. Both those who celebrate and who do not celebrate Easter or Christmas do so with the intention of honoring God.

 

[Deborah13]

I always thought of "in truth" in that verse as meaning in sincerity and pure motives--because if you aren't truly worshiping God, then you're not really worshiping Him at all.

I think you are correct in your interpretation of this verse.

I hope your puppy gets to feeling better soon.

 

[farouk]

I personally don't care whether someone is for or against Christmas and Easter. I was already aware that there are those who do not observe those holidays, and why, long before coming here. And I thought they had some interesting thoughts, though I never came to agree with them myself. To me, it's a matter of mutual respect. Both those who celebrate and who do not celebrate Easter or Christmas do so with the intention of honoring God.

questdriven:

The way I would look at it is this: on the one hand, no to unscriptural ritual. On the other hand, if having special meetings at certain times of the year makes it more likely that people will come to hear the Word, who might otherwise not do so, then having special meetings at Christmas and Easter is a great idea!

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

Slider: It all depends on what you mean by 'celebrate'.

 

[Slider]

So, if even one iota of your theology is wrong, you can't worship God? I don't think that's what the verse meant. None of us is 100% correct on anything, including our view on theology and the Bible. God reveals truth to us as we seek it out. But it's not an instant thing. He may reveal that we are mistaken on a certain aspect years later. I always thought of "in truth" in that verse as meaning in sincerity and pure motives--because if you aren't truly worshiping God, then you're not really worshiping Him at all.

While I do believe we have to worship in sincerity (the verse does say "in spirit"), it also says in truth; and truth and sincerity are not the same thing. This verse means what it says. It's like what Jesus said about a little leaven ruining the whole lump. A little error destroys the entire act of worshipping no matter how good it is otherwise.

As for not being able to be 100% correct on everything, that may be true... However, that doesn't give anyone an excuse to purposely worship in error, nor does it relieve them of at least searching to the true way to worship. At the very least we should be established in the present truth we do have.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

John 4:23-24: But thehour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father inspirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship himmust worship him in spirit and in truth. (KJV)

I’d like to talk about these verses, because I think theyare two of the most important verses in the Bible for us.

The first thing we see is a timestamp. When are we to do this? Well, NOW! Jesus spoke those words to the Samaritan woman 2000 years ago. So it’s either not in our time or it’s longoverdue!

It also identifies what God’s looking for. He says that true worshipers are going to dothis, and He seeks them out. He alsosays that the true worshipers MUST do something. He says they “shall”. There is a little wiggle room with the Father“seeking” them, but not when he says they “shall” and they “must”. “Shall” is a pretty powerful word, but “must”is more so. It dictates there is noother choice. If you are going to be atrue worshiper, this is the requirement and the seal that you are one.

This “Must” is that you worship in spirit and in truth.

I cannot comment on when you worship in “spirit”. We know that the Holy Ghost is the spirit ofTruth. But how can I possibly gageotherwise if you are putting on a show or are really in the spirit? God knows, I don’t. There are a lot of people “worshiping in thespirit”. Speaking in tongues, dancing ashard as David, etc…. Praise God forthat!

But we have a measuring stick when it comes to Truth. That’s what I want to focus on. You can worship in the spirit, but it’s allfor naught if it isn’t in truth. Theopposite is true too. But that’s not myfocus for this conversation.


John 4:23-24 says we must worship in truth. I can’t help but to think if you aren’tworshiping in truth, you are not a true worshiper. Jesus also said, “in vain they do worship me,teaching for doctrine the commandments of men”. (Mat 15:9) That verse isinteresting…. It says you can worship Jesus, but it can be wrong. And if you do it wrong, it’s in vain anddoesn’t count!

There will be some folks that want to argue, “context”. We must put John 4:24 in “context”. Ok, do so! What are you going to say? Weshould only worship in Truth if we are a Samaritan? If we are on a mountain? If we are in a temple? If we are a whore? Let me ask you…. When did God EVER say it wasok to worship any other wise than in spirit and in truth? Sure, God winked at ignorance in times past,but he isn’t now.

John 4:24 is a general statement Jesus made that can beinserted in any place in the Bible. Wemust always worship in spirit and in truth! It was true in Genesis, Deuteronimy, Isaiah, Matthew, Romans andRevelation. Look at all the times Godgot pissed off! It was almost alwaysabout “truth”.

So people wonder why we fight on this board…. I’m a bigoffender! It’s because I think and knowtruth is very important to God. We arguesports, politics, philosophy, whatever! NONE of them are more important than getting God’s word right! I’ll tell you how to end me from fighting onthese boards: Tell me I’m right, andsubmit to what I say! Do that and I’llleave you alone and won’t have anything to fight for!

Oh, but that can’t be done… And for good reason. Maybe I’m wrong. Go through the scriptures and prove it! That isn’t a challenge, it’s a plea.

I am a Chicago Cub fan…. Sadly, my season is over already…That is the fate of Cub fans. Arguingsports is meaningless to me. Arguing God’sword to get it right it very important. Being a Cub fan doesn’t get me into heaven, but worshiping in truthdoes! Dammit! I want to know the truth! And I want you all to know it too.

So when I argue against Christmas and Easter, don’t lookdown on me as one who “causes division”. Yea, I’m doing that and Jesus said he did too! If you believe in John 4:24, then you will understand why it’s important tohash this out.


Now if you want to wonder what the Apostles would do… Paulhardly got along with any of them. Johnand Barnabaias, Peter, James the half brother of Jesus…. He argued with all of them.

So you don’t understand why we aren’t displaying “brotherlylove”…. When it comes to truth, weshouldn’t! There is only one truth, andletting a brother dwell in a lie is not love.

I wrote a really long response to this... but it was deleted through an internet error... sigh.. haha

I will sum up what I said by simply saying that you are misunderstanding the context and that the text is about the end of the Temple worship and the exclusivity and hypocrisy that it has become. This happened on the Cross when the temple veil was torn and now God's Spirit and presence is to be poured out on all men, who will not worship God in any given specific location. Nor in the way of sacrifices that were given through hypocritical men who made God's temple into a den of thieves.

Your attempts to make this text more exclusive, is exactly the opposite of what he is saying. He is making the worship of God something available to ALL MEN, not those who worship at the Temple on Mount Gerizim (the Samaritan Temple) nor the Temple of Herod, but will do so in Spirit because God is Spirit.

 

[SeekHisFace]

Doulos... maybe it was you that wrote about the feasts--there are ones that say that times in the new testament mean feasts...etc. ?? I came back here to respond and that post was gone...lol!
Anyway, I have a scripture for you in a response. About "times". Hebrew meaning is not what many say ...

Lev 19:26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

Speaking of truth and Spirit!

H6049 (times)
ענן
‛ânan
aw-nan'
A primitive root; to cover; used only as denominative from H6051, to cloud over; figuratively to act covertly, that is, practise magic: - X bring, enchanter, Meonemin, observe (-r of) times, soothsayer, sorcerer.




Anyway....so to worship the Father in truth and Spirit...indeed we need to.

God is a Spirit...we must worship Him in truth and spirit:

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


~~~

 

[Slider]

Your attempts to make this text more exclusive, is exactly the opposite of what he is saying. He is making the worship of God something available to ALL MEN, not those who worship at the Temple on Mount Gerizim (the Samaritan Temple) nor the Temple of Herod, but will do so in Spirit because God is Spirit.

Hello Doulos,

I did talk about the context, and during that I asked when God said it was ok NOT to worship in spirit and in truth? So I pose that question to you. I do understand the context, but I still maintain this verse stands on it's own as a statement that is always true. Yes, God made himself available to all men as you said. Your very last statement (...but will do so in Spirit because God is Spirit) is only partially what was said. First off, like the verse says, they "must". I don't mind you saying will, because they will, but the verse is a little more powerful in that it demands it. Of course, true worshippers will do it regardless if it is demanded or not. However, you left out that they will not only do it in spirit, but they will do it in truth.

 

[Slider]

Slider: It all depends on what you mean by 'celebrate'.

Hi Farouk,

My point of this post isn't really about "celebrating" anything, though it is a part of my point. It's more about the importance of truth in worship AND to explain why I think it is sometimes necessary to debate it. If I'm correct about truth and worship, then I would state that there is nothing else of greater importance.

 

[Slider]

I personally don't care whether someone is for or against Christmas and Easter. I was already aware that there are those who do not observe those holidays, and why, long before coming here. And I thought they had some interesting thoughts, though I never came to agree with them myself. To me, it's a matter of mutual respect. Both those who celebrate and who do not celebrate Easter or Christmas do so with the intention of honoring God.

Hi Questdriven,

I'd like to restate my reasons for this post. It's not really about celebrating Easter or Christmas directly. Perhaps I shouldn't have even brought them up because I think some (perhaps even you) are focusing on that point.

The point is the importance of truth, and especially in worship. I'm a bit shocked I'm not getting more support on that, but ok.... Furthermore, I want people to understand when these things come up in threads why I believe it is so important that I'm willing to debate and argue about them. Hopefully in a civil and respectful manner, of course.

 

[Slider]

Well just thought it was helpful to show that we have much more written on the issue of what it means to "worship in spirit and truth" we worship God based upon the truth of who we are IN SPIRIT, not in flesh. A good example is seen in 1 John?
1Jo 1:8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. FLESH
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. SPIRIT

Ok, Thanks George.... I'm afraid I still may be missing your point then.

 

[Slider]

So we need to put these guys to rest, as in dead. As we seek the Truth we need to operate in the above scripture and admit sometimes there is no clear understanding or an answer for why, such as the Trinity, healing, etc. We just believe God.

Deborah,

I agree that we must seek Truth, and I also understand and admit there is no clear understanting to some things. However, I still think it's important to keep looking!

 

[farouk]

Slider: Well, John 4 has the account of the Lord Jesus speaking to the woman at Sychar's Well, when He expounds the truth that true worship is 'in spirit and in truth'.

I don't see it has much to do with the question of local churches choosing whether or not to arrange special meetings at Christmas or Easter to take evangelistic opportunities in their disctricts.

Blessings.