TRUTH

[Slider]

I don't see it has much to do with the question of local churches choosing whether or not to arrange special meetings at Christmas or Easter to take evangelistic opportunities in their disctricts.

Farouk,

Ok.... Do you think they should preach and worship in truth?

 

[farouk]

I don't see it has much to do with the question of local churches choosing whether or not to arrange special meetings at Christmas or Easter to take evangelistic opportunities in their disctricts.

Farouk,

Ok.... Do you think they should preach and worship in truth?

Slider:

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere profitable, if I may says so, frankly, in a friendly way.

You question is has such an obvious ostensible answer - yes - that it's almost like asking someone: 'When did you stop beating your wife'?

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

So, if even one iota of your theology is wrong, you can't worship God? I don't think that's what the verse meant. None of us is 100% correct on anything, including our view on theology and the Bible. God reveals truth to us as we seek it out. But it's not an instant thing. He may reveal that we are mistaken on a certain aspect years later. I always thought of "in truth" in that verse as meaning in sincerity and pure motives--because if you aren't truly worshiping God, then you're not really worshiping Him at all.

While I do believe we have to worship in sincerity (the verse does say "in spirit"), it also says in truth; and truth and sincerity are not the same thing. This verse means what it says. It's like what Jesus said about a little leaven ruining the whole lump. A little error destroys the entire act of worshipping no matter how good it is otherwise.

As for not being able to be 100% correct on everything, that may be true... However, that doesn't give anyone an excuse to purposely worship in error, nor does it relieve them of at least searching to the true way to worship. At the very least we should be established in the present truth we do have.

Still disagree, but it'd be pointless to repeat myself.
I'd agree that someone shouldn't knowingly practice untruths, however, there are naturally going to be disputes over which areas are in error or not. And not everyone who disagrees does so just because they don't want to admit that they're in error or whatever. My old pastor proclaimed, constantly, relentlessly, that the Holy Spirit is not going to be within 100 miles of a church that uses a "corrupt" translation or modern music, yet I've had much better worship experiences at churches like that than at his church. In the end, we have to decide for ourselves, and rely on God to reveal the truth to us.

 

[evenifigoalone]

questdriven:

The way I would look at it is this: on the one hand, no to unscriptural ritual. On the other hand, if having special meetings at certain times of the year makes it more likely that people will come to hear the Word, who might otherwise not do so, then having special meetings at Christmas and Easter is a great idea!

Blessings.

My (new) church does this community Easter egg hunt event in participation with several other local churches. Besides the egg hunt for the kids, there's music, food, and the Gospel message is presented to a large crowd. Some people got saved this year.
I was one of the volunteer workers in this event, and I was happy to be a part of it.

 

[farouk]

questdriven:

The way I would look at it is this: on the one hand, no to unscriptural ritual. On the other hand, if having special meetings at certain times of the year makes it more likely that people will come to hear the Word, who might otherwise not do so, then having special meetings at Christmas and Easter is a great idea!

Blessings.

My (new) church does this community Easter egg hunt event in participation with several other local churches. Besides the egg hunt for the kids, there's music, food, and the Gospel message is presented to a large crowd. Some people got saved this year.
I was one of the volunteer workers in this event, and I was happy to be a part of it.

questdriven:

Interesting! I don't know anything of the churches in your area, but I would still instinctively want to know about the doctrine of any local church before getting involved in collaborative activities with them. But I can't really comment directly on your local situation.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

questdriven:

The way I would look at it is this: on the one hand, no to unscriptural ritual. On the other hand, if having special meetings at certain times of the year makes it more likely that people will come to hear the Word, who might otherwise not do so, then having special meetings at Christmas and Easter is a great idea!

Blessings.

My (new) church does this community Easter egg hunt event in participation with several other local churches. Besides the egg hunt for the kids, there's music, food, and the Gospel message is presented to a large crowd. Some people got saved this year.
I was one of the volunteer workers in this event, and I was happy to be a part of it.

questdriven:

Interesting! I don't know anything of the churches in your area, but I would still instinctively want to know about the doctrine of any local church before getting involved in collaborative activities with them. But I can't really comment directly on your local situation.

Blessings.

Pretty sure the churches in participation are of various denominations. The message given on salvation was accurate, anyway. Was put in simple terms so the kids could understand, too.

 

[George Muller]

questdriven:

The way I would look at it is this: on the one hand, no to unscriptural ritual. On the other hand, if having special meetings at certain times of the year makes it more likely that people will come to hear the Word, who might otherwise not do so, then having special meetings at Christmas and Easter is a great idea!

Blessings.

My (new) church does this community Easter egg hunt event in participation with several other local churches. Besides the egg hunt for the kids, there's music, food, and the Gospel message is presented to a large crowd. Some people got saved this year.
I was one of the volunteer workers in this event, and I was happy to be a part of it.

Amen and I know that even when our motives are not 100% pure and often mixed with what seems as motives of this world, the Lord uses us? wretched as we are He has chosen us with all our faults to tell others of His Mercy.
What a very good God, we have.

 

[Slider]

You question is has such an obvious ostensible answer - yes - that it's almost like asking someone: 'When did you stop beating your wife'?

You probably won't like any of the follow up questions I have then... I'll just make the statement that if they should be preaching truth, the congregation should follow it. I will assume you believe John 4:24 when it says we must worship in spirit and in truth -- at least I assume you agree to some degree.

If that is true, I don't understand why you would find this unprofitable. I am hi-lighting the importance of truth in worship and I believe it IS worth discussing and fighting for. This is my point.... What upsets me is when people believe it's not important how we worship, but that we do worship. Even in the OT, God was not always solely about the bottom line/get the job done. He wants it done right and his way.

See my point?

 

[George Muller]

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Some think that truth is seen in legalism, but it is not? The truth is only known to those who know Christ and His grace.

 

[farouk]

You question is has such an obvious ostensible answer - yes - that it's almost like asking someone: 'When did you stop beating your wife'?

You probably won't like any of the follow up questions I have then... I'll just make the statement that if they should be preaching truth, the congregation should follow it. I will assume you believe John 4:24 when it says we must worship in spirit and in truth -- at least I assume you agree to some degree.

If that is true, I don't understand why you would find this unprofitable. I am hi-lighting the importance of truth in worship and I believe it IS worth discussing and fighting for. This is my point.... What upsets me is when people believe it's not important how we worship, but that we do worship. Even in the OT, God was not always solely about the bottom line/get the job done. He wants it done right and his way.

See my point?

Oh I basically agree now, yes. I thought you were trying to link it with having / not having services over Easter.

Maybe I was half-asleep, or something.

Blessings.

 

[tim-from-pa]

You question is has such an obvious ostensible answer - yes - that it's almost like asking someone: 'When did you stop beating your wife'?

You probably won't like any of the follow up questions I have then... I'll just make the statement that if they should be preaching truth, the congregation should follow it. I will assume you believe John 4:24 when it says we must worship in spirit and in truth -- at least I assume you agree to some degree.

If that is true, I don't understand why you would find this unprofitable. I am hi-lighting the importance of truth in worship and I believe it IS worth discussing and fighting for. This is my point.... What upsets me is when people believe it's not important how we worship, but that we do worship. Even in the OT, God was not always solely about the bottom line/get the job done. He wants it done right and his way.

See my point?

Hey Slider:

It's like these fine folks say, It does not matter if we celebrate Christmas and Easter; it's the intent for evangelism. Likewise, it does not matter if your mechanic inflated your tires with methane or propane and did not ground your car so that there's no static sparks. The main thing is that he put on the tires so that you can drive! Now stop being so judgemental! :toofunny

 

[evenifigoalone]

When I celebrate Easter or Christmas, things like decorating the tree and coloring eggs have nothing to do with worship or worshiping around that time of year, and I don't think anybody would say that they do. (Well, you can alegorize, make similes, and whatnot. Like the Resurrection eggs that can be used to teach the story of Jesus' sacrifice to children. When I was a kid, the private school I went to and my Sunday school class used those, and I still have a set of them myself that my family used to use in our daily devotions on Easter. I personally don't have a problem with it, but some may disagree. And that's fine.)
Worship itself it spent reflecting Jesus' birth or sacrifice, as well as a reminder that those are things we should be celebrating in our hearts all year long. It can be a time of spiritual renewal and reflection, to look where you're at in your Christian walk and make adjustments as God reveals.


In any case, the Bible calls for mutual respect on both sides, over things that are debatable and not clearly defined in the Bible. If neither side can retain mutual respect, then it only causes division and would be best for one person or the other to just leave the subject alone or refuse to debate it, IMO. Otherwise, discussion is good, especially for those who are undecided or rethinking their position.


In the end, while discussions can be profitable, we are not to listen to man, because they will lead you astray and could have you believing the Bible says all kinds of things that it really doesn't. God's the only one who will never lead us wrong.
Personally, I grew up in a church that taught several kinds of legalism which I no longer follow. But I still wonder from time to time and all of the sides pressuring me to join them only confuse me, make me feel like life's too complicated, and drive me crazy. In the end, all I can do is ask God for guidance. Some might not like where His guidance leads me, but there you have it.

 

[farouk]

When I celebrate Easter or Christmas, things like decorating the tree and coloring eggs have nothing to do with worship or worshiping around that time of year, and I don't think anybody would say that they do. (Well, you can alegorize, make similes, and whatnot. Like the Resurrection eggs that can be used to teach the story of Jesus' sacrifice to children. When I was a kid, the private school I went to and my Sunday school class used those, and I still have a set of them myself that my family used to use in our daily devotions on Easter. I personally don't have a problem with it, but some may disagree. And that's fine.)
Worship itself it spent reflecting Jesus' birth or sacrifice, as well as a reminder that those are things we should be celebrating in our hearts all year long. It can be a time of spiritual renewal and reflection, to look where you're at in your Christian walk and make adjustments as God reveals.


In any case, the Bible calls for mutual respect on both sides, over things that are debatable and not clearly defined in the Bible. If neither side can retain mutual respect, then it only causes division and would be best for one person or the other to just leave the subject alone or refuse to debate it, IMO. Otherwise, discussion is good, especially for those who are undecided or rethinking their position.

questdriven:

Excellently put, I think. I'm reminded of Philippians 4.5: 'Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand'.

Blessings.

 

[Mizzy]

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Some think that truth is seen in legalism, but it is not? The truth is only known to those who know Christ and His grace.

The above verses reflect my thoughts on this subject, [MENTION=89337]Slider[/MENTION].

Much like how the Lord hears our prayers because we are righteous in Christ, we are called to worship God in spirit & in truth. One cannot truly worship God without the knowledge of Christ, Who IS truth & without Christ, we do not receive the spirit. That's not to say that the obvious isn't true as well though. We are to seek the truth of the Scriptures & debate in the spirit of love for the purpose of enlightenment.

And this:

None of us is 100% correct on anything, including our view on theology and the Bible. God reveals truth to us as we seek it out. But it's not an instant thing.

We're all being sanctified. If we all knew the complete truth, there would be no need to study & debate.

Debating in the spirit of truth, means being IN the Spirit of God. If I've had a horrible day & haven't had a little talk with the Lord, I simply do NOT belong in here discussing terrorists, welfare or holidays because I will not be willing to see the truth if it's dropped on my head.

Not saying I've had that happen... ;)

 

[farouk]

[MENTION=89337]Slider[/MENTION]: Yes, as [MENTION=96523]Mizzy[/MENTION] says, all believers are being sanctified. 2 Peter 3.18 makes it clear that our process of increasing in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord is something that is continuous; we'll never arrive there before we get to be with Him for eternity.

Daily prayerful communion with Him and looking into His Word are an essential part of the believer's experience. (I'm sure you'll agree.)

Blessings.

 

[Slider]

It's like these fine folks say, It does not matter if we celebrate Christmas and Easter; it's the intent for evangelism.

I hear what you are saying Tim... Again, I really don't want this to be another holiday debate thread. Let me say this though: IF something is not a Doctrine of God and you are using it to "draw" people into Church, it is wrong.

 

[Slider]

In any case, the Bible calls for mutual respect on both sides, over things that are debatable and not clearly defined in the Bible. If neither side can retain mutual respect, then it only causes division and would be best for one person or the other to just leave the subject alone or refuse to debate it, IMO. Otherwise, discussion is good, especially for those who are undecided or rethinking their position.

I can agree with that.

 

[divinecloud7]

Ah glad you brought this up to our attention, Thank you.

The believer is always seeking the truth, the truth of the kingdom of heaven. The truth in all things that are of GOD and his son lord JESUS. It would be futile for a believer to not learn discernment of his faith and through prayer seek out the truth, it's a prerequisite.

Without the truth we are blind, and we cannot see the road ahead of us. It is better for GOD and his son lord JESUS to lead us then for us to attempt to try and chance it.


Praise be to GOD and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Sparkey]

1Cor 6:7 (NIV) The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?

So if that is our attitude and if we are told to turn the other cheek and to bless those (enemies) who despitefully use us? (Luke 6:28; Matt 5:44) And if we are told that when we say that we love God but don't show love to our brothers, we are fooling ourselves because we declare about the invisible but don't show it to the visible.

And we have all heard about how we will be flabbergasted and in utter awe of the Mighty One who speaks and we won't be able to comprehend how there was even any time conceivable where He was thirsty, let alone a time when we gave water....

And yet, with all these powerful witnesses? All this truth? What if somebody comes and says, "I worship Him on Friday," or some such thing and we accuse that one of not worshiping in truth? What?

There is one who is called the accuser of the brethren. We are to be builders. Peacemakers, who sow in peace and who look to harvest uprightness and righteousness. Brethren, some things ought not be that way. No. This is a seed that requires planting, requires dying to self, hiding away and not celebrating, requires a nourishing hand, a protective hand and a look to the future harvest in faith and trust.

 

[George Muller]

I think some fail to see that the truth is not found in the flesh of man, nothing good lives in the flesh. A man must be born-again and become a New Creation, it is this spiritual man that worships God. The Spirit of Truth teaches this man.
Those who seek to be justified by keeping a certain day are trying to please God by the flesh. We worship God in spirit and have no confidence in the flesh. This is why we meet on the 1st day of the week, because our Lord was raised and we was raised with Him. Now in spirit, that is true but in the flesh we do not see this.




Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Here is truth the flesh of man cannot see or understand.