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Turning water into wine

C

Chris.

Member
Maybe it's the vegetarian or wine conneseur in me but I have always marveled at Jesus turning water into wine.

Personally I couldn't think of much worse than drinking anything fermented in a dead goat. Maybe Jesus was showing those guys how nice things could be.

I think Jesus was so kind. :)

Wine from a dead goat belongs on man Vs wild.
 
Chris. said:
Maybe it's the vegetarian or wine conneseur in me but I have always marveled at Jesus turning water into wine.

Personally I couldn't think of much worse than drinking anything fermented in a dead goat. Maybe Jesus was showing those guys how nice things could be.

I think Jesus was so kind. :)
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This only happened because his mother bugged him about there being no more wine. He had no intention of doing what he did. John 2:3-5; When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.†<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>And Jesus said to her, “ <sup class="crossreference" value='(E)'></sup> Woman, <sup class="footnote" value='[a]'></sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(F)'></sup> what does that have to do with us? <sup class="crossreference" value='(G)'></sup> My hour has not yet come.†<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>His <sup class="crossreference" value='(H)'></sup> mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it."

Doesn't this sound like a lot of Moms?




 
Roof said:
Are we not allowed to ask God to do things?
Are we not allowed to ask God for help doing something?
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Lol I think God overrides our logic often thankfully. I am happy to admit I am dumb when it comes to deciding what's best, To a point.

The interesting thing I noticed about that miracle is in a way it involves consideration of the old testament scriptures regarding drunkenness. It is not just black and white simplicity.
 
According to what I've read, naturally fermented grape juice contains a lot less alcohol than the alcoholic beverages of today.
 
questdriven said:
According to what I've read, naturally fermented grape juice contains a lot less alcohol than the alcoholic beverages of today.
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That my friend is a fallacy dreamed up by those in the church that don't want to admit Jesus drank wine, or that it's OK for us to imbibe once in a while.

Wine is wine.
 
I remember as a kid in a brethren church being told it was all just grape juice. It took the baptists to set me straight on what it most likely was.
 
Stan53 said:
This only happened because his mother bugged him about there being no more wine. He had no intention of doing what he did. John 2:3-5; When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>And Jesus said to her, “ <sup class="crossreference" value='(E)'></sup> Woman, <sup class="footnote" value='[a]'></sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(F)'></sup> what does that have to do with us? <sup class="crossreference" value='(G)'></sup> My hour has not yet come.” <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>His <sup class="crossreference" value='(H)'></sup> mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it."

Doesn't this sound like a lot of Moms?




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Lets step back and really look at the words that are spoken can we?

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

Clearly, this is an issue that Mary believes that she and her son can solve.

John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

I bolded that part because we see something different with Jesus. Let's go back to when Jesus was a child.

Luke 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

We see that when Jesus was a child, he subjected himself to the authority of Mary and Joseph. However, as Jesus starts his ministry he says, what have I to do with thee.

Ironically, we see the same words being used by the man with daemons.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

What we see in this language is a clear demarcation. Jesus is no longer under submission to his Mother Mary, but now comes under sole submission to God which announces the beginning of his ministry. Even Legion knew who's son Jesus was. Jesus was the son of God.

There is also a lot more going on with this story. It is not coincidence that the first miracle happens in Cana. I believe that John writes with a known jewish technique. For example, if we look in the Old Testament, we see that the Land of Canaan was the promised land, and it was promised to Abraham. Genesis 12 and 13. However, in chapter 14, we see that he kings joined forces and went to war, and Abram's brother was taken, and Abraham retrieves his beloved brother. And after victory, who is it that Abraham meets but Melchizedek (14:18) and what does the text say? Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Later in John's writing we see Jesus saying that he is the bread of life... and we all know that the wine is the new covenant, in His blood. All this takes place in Cana, aka "The promised land". The same place God promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations.

There is much more we could say about this.
 
Stan53 said:
That my friend is a fallacy dreamed up by those in the church that don't want to admit Jesus drank wine, or that it's OK for us to imbibe once in a while.

Wine is wine.
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I don't really disagree with drinking wine. I don't think it's necessarily wrong--and neither does my pastor, surprisingly. (Though he doesn't drink. Plus I think pastors aren't supposed to?)

The main reasons I wouldn't drink wine is because people tend to think "Christians aren't supposed to drink", it'd be having the appearance of evil.
That and I'm not old enough yet.:lol Plus, isn't it bad for your liver? Or maybe that's just beer. :chin
 
questdriven said:
I don't necessarily disagree with drinking. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to drink responsibly--and neither does my pastor, surprisingly. (Though he doesn't drink.)

The main reasons I wouldn't drink is because I want to keep my wits about me, and because people tend to think "Christians aren't supposed to drink", it'd be having the appearance of evil.
That and I'm not old enough to drink yet.:lol
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questdriven:

You must remember, too, that in Bible times there wasn't chlorinated or treated water as we have it today.

I'm rather strongly opposed to alcohol, I guess, but we must remember that the Prohibition thing was also people shooting themselves in the foot: it made a lot of bootleggers rich; and more or less created the mafia, who turned Havana, Cuba into a vast drinking and gambling den and the Castro business is still with us, as a reaction to the mess there was there, before.
 
questdriven said:
I don't necessarily disagree with drinking. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to drink responsibly--and neither does my pastor, surprisingly. (Though he doesn't drink.)

The main reasons I wouldn't drink is because I want to keep my wits about me, and because people tend to think "Christians aren't supposed to drink", it'd be having the appearance of evil.
That and I'm not old enough to drink yet.:lol
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I would strongly say that to use the first miracle of Jesus to support or deny alcohol is to completely and utterly miss what's truly going on in the story. In other words, if our main focus is on alcohol with this story, then we will completely miss the essence of what's really going on.

I've seen this so many times in so many places where a story in the Bible is used to argue a point that the original intent of the story was never designed or told to support or deny such an argument... and then the focus of the text becomes more of our argument than what the story is truly intended to convey.

I'm not saying that we can't use this text to support or deny alcohol, but I am saying that this story has nothing to do with that argument as it's initial meaning. Often, we forget that in the arguments and we become blinded to the real intent of the story.

.02

P.S. Watch how this thread will be consumed with alcohol now. Why? Because we like to argue... it's in our nature. Drama, drama drama... Reminds me of the woman at the well. She's sitting in front of the only person that can heal her, and what does she do? She misses it by going to the argument... How often do we miss the richness and healing that is sitting right before our eyes, and we miss it because of the argument?
 
God’s word can be literal and Spiritual as in the case of the wedding in Cana so I will present the Spiritual. The wedding represents the Spiritual being the union between Jesus and his bride whom are the children of God through repentance. Jesus brings his disciples to the wedding to show them the wonders of God through the renewal of his Spirit. I want you to see the relationship we have between the old self in the flesh and the new Spiritual rebirth in Christ. We are called the bride of Christ and I could not find any better example of this as in the story of the first wedding Jesus attended with his disciples, (Ref: John 2:1-11).

The word marriage represents our relationship with Jesus. We are called the bride of Christ which means when we ask Jesus into our life through repentance we become one in the Spirit that is in Christ and have communion with his life, death and resurrection. We are united with Jesus as one body that has been renewed through the Spirit that is God. We become as a bride to the bridegroom as we are joined together as one, Matthew 9:15; Rev 21:9.

The word call means that we do not just happen to fall into a relationship with Jesus as we are called of God or predestined before the world began for Gods purpose and grace. Jesus and his disciples were called to the wedding to witness the testimony of Gods power and authority through the miracle of changing water into wine, which was Jesus first miracle. The water and the wine represent the word of God and his Spirit as a renewal of our body and soul through the salvation of Jesus, Jeremiah 1:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; John 3:5.

Wanting wine meant the disciples wanted understanding of those things Jesus was teaching them as they could not understand with their carnal minds, but did know that Jesus was a prophet sent by God. When Jesus said to his mother my time has not come yet he was speaking of his death and resurrection. Spiritual understanding could not come until Jesus ascended unto the Father and the Holy Spirit that is the Spirit of God be brought down from heaven to open our Spiritual eyes and ears to understand those teachings of Jesus while he walked the earth with his disciples, Romans 8:5-8; John 14:26.

The waterpots in themselves are a Jewish tradition of placing these pots outside the wedding feast so everyone could wash their hands and feet before entering into the feast. The significance of there being six water pots of stone is that the number six represents the number of the beast or sinful nations that are being controlled by Satan using others to deceive man like he used a serpent to deceive Adam and Eve as Satan is a spirit that has no form and has to use whatever or whomever he can to work through to deceive man.

When Jesus asked the servants to fill the waterpots with water and then he changed the water into wine is a Spiritual representation of the water being the word of God and the wine being the Holy Spirit as it is only by the word of God and his Holy Spirit that we can see the kingdom of God through a renewed Spiritual rebirth through repentance.

The governor asked Jesus why was the good wine served last after everyone was already drunk as he could not understand such a thing. In the beginning man was pure and knew no sin until they allowed themselves to be deceived by Satan who used the serpent to deceive them thus the knowledge of sin was revealed to them and extended to all generations. The good wine (Gods Spirit come to flesh in Jesus) was sacrificed for the atonement of sin as through repentance we now have the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God – new wine) that renews our inner man through the word of God that we can now have life eternal with the father, Rev 13:18; John 1:14; Colossians 3:5,6; 3:12-14; Genesis 3:6, 7.
 
StoveBolts said:
I would strongly say that to use the first miracle of Jesus to support or deny alcohol is to completely and utterly miss what's truly going on in the story. In other words, if our main focus is on alcohol with this story, then we will completely miss the essence of what's really going on.

I've seen this so many times in so many places where a story in the Bible is used to argue a point that the original intent of the story was never designed or told to support or deny such an argument... and then the focus of the text becomes more of our argument than what the story is truly intended to convey.

I'm not saying that we can't use this text to support or deny alcohol, but I am saying that this story has nothing to do with that argument as it's initial meaning. Often, we forget that in the arguments and we become blinded to the real intent of the story.

.02

P.S. Watch how this thread will be consumed with alcohol now. Why? Because we like to argue... it's in our nature. Drama, drama drama... Reminds me of the woman at the well. She's sitting in front of the only person that can heal her, and what does she do? She misses it by going to the argument... How often do we miss the richness and healing that is sitting right before our eyes, and we miss it because of the argument?
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True. There are other verses in the NT that more directly mention the subject and would be better to use for debating points, I think. (Not that I can name the references off the top of my head.)
I personally like discussions, but they can get tiring, confusing, and often stressful if they get too heated or complex.
 
for his glory,

I would agree with some of what you wrote, but I would caution against too much allegory. Also, you can't separate the spiritual from the physical. Point in case, Jesus was a physical man, and he died a physical death and experienced a physical resurrection.

As the book of john starts out, "The word became flesh, and dwelt among us".
 
questdriven said:
True. There are other verses in the NT that more directly mention the subject and would be better to use for debating points, I think. (Not that I can name the references off the top of my head.)
I personally like discussions, but they can get tiring, confusing, and often stressful if they get too heated or complex.
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1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; :thumbsup

Maybe those interested in that topic can start a new thread...
 
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