Two Kinds of Churches

[stovebolts]

I agree with your last bit about relationship. Whilst we are told to "go out and make disciples" getting them into the church and giving them some answers is not a bad thing either (assuming the church in question even knows the answers)

I would say that the right answers are the way to right living that brings glory to God. The mission of Jesus was a mission of repentance and forgiveness comes through repentance. The biblical view of repentance is to stop one behavior and do another. It is not simply stopping a behavior so these are answers that you should have as well as the church.

We are the church, you and I and every member who is a follower of Christ and we all hold responsibility and we ought not shun that responsibility on the preacher etc. As Paul put (NIV) Romans 14:14 I myself am convinced, my brothers and sisters, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with knowledge and competent to instruct one another.

The Good news is that Jesus is the son of God, and he died for our sins and three days later was raised to life. If one rejects this, then we are mandated to kick the dust off our heels and walk away.

 

[Grazer]

I would say that the right answers are the way to right living that brings glory to God. The mission of Jesus was a mission of repentance and forgiveness comes through repentance. The biblical view of repentance is to stop one behavior and do another. It is not simply stopping a behavior so these are answers that you should have as well as the church.

We are the church, you and I and every member who is a follower of Christ and we all hold responsibility and we ought not shun that responsibility on the preacher etc. As Paul put (NIV) Romans 14:14 I myself am convinced, my brothers and sisters, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with knowledge and competent to instruct one another.

The Good news is that Jesus is the son of God, and he died for our sins and three days later was raised to life. If one rejects this, then we are mandated to kick the dust off our heels and walk away.

The questions I had in mind were the more evidential ones but yeah, I agree with what you've said.

 

[stovebolts]

The questions I had in mind were the more evidential ones but yeah, I agree with what you've said.

evidentaial ones? Like what? Did Jesus really exist? Did he really die? What proof do we have he was raised from the dead? Is the trinity a core belief to be accepted? Baptism? Confession? One believes the Biblical account or they don't and if we spend the bulk of our time trying to prove these things then we are getting pulled away from our mission.

What does the Bible tell us? (NIV)
1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

What did Jesus tell demon possessed man after he drove them out?

Mark 5 18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” 20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.

Everyone has a story! Tell your story!

2 Corinthians 3:2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Finally, Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Tell me, what is more important? A church that focus more on teaching the trinity, core doctrines such as baptism, etc and defends Christ, or a church that helps people grow as individuals and live according to God's plan where healing can occur and healthy relationships can flourish?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yeah, I've never conformed to anything in my life (with the possible exception of my work place) and I'm not about to start now. Getting people to "conform" is not what Christianity is about. As StoveBolts very rightly put it, it's about relationship.

As I have time we'll visit what Paul says about this. Then you'll understand exactly what I'm talking about.

What major denom just voted to accept gay clergy? Somewhere along the line it started out with just a little leaven in the lump that nobody did anything about. Now it's worked it's way through the whole batch.

But anyway, when we visit what Paul says about this, that will clear up any misunderstanding you and/or others may have about what I'm saying.

 

[stovebolts]

Yeah, I've never conformed to anything in my life (with the possible exception of my work place) and I'm not about to start now. Getting people to "conform" is not what Christianity is about. As StoveBolts very rightly put it, it's about relationship.

It is about relationships. Relationships where we accept each other for where they are at. We support each other and learn from each other and urge each other to live the way God would have us live.

As Jethro brought up, some institutional churches have deemed that homosexuality is a-ok and some even marry same sex couples. These are not biblical churches and are a prime example of when an institution becomes the replacement for the church instead of the Body of Christ which is the church. These are institutions that have strayed from sound biblical teachings on how to live.

Revelation 2:18 “To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:

These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.

20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25 except to hold on to what you have until I come.’

26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations — 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star. 29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

[Grazer]

It is about relationships. Relationships where we accept each other for where they are at. We support each other and learn from each other and urge each other to live the way God would have us live.

As Jethro brought up, some institutional churches have deemed that homosexuality is a-ok and some even marry same sex couples. These are not biblical churches and are a prime example of when an institution becomes the replacement for the church instead of the Body of Christ which is the church. These are institutions that have strayed from sound biblical teachings on how to live.

At the risk of getting banned or this getting deleted, I'll simply say I disagree with your example and I'll move on

 

[Adullam]

Living in the community of the Spirit accomplishes everything we need to walk in the narrow way. We must walk though the gate as individuals...YES...but we can only walk in the way TOGETHER. It is the body...all of it...that enables us to be built up into the image of Christ.

 

[stovebolts]

At the risk of getting banned or this getting deleted, I'll simply say I disagree with your example and I'll move on

You won't get banned unless you are promoting sin and rack up at least 3 infractions and the mod's wouldn't delete your post.

I take it that you are either gay, or believe in gay marriage. Neither disqualifies you as having a relationship with God in community. We all have struggles, but we don't want to put our views above the biblical views. We call this in part carrying our cross. It is where we deny our feelings, and allow the Spirit to transform our lives. We are not survivors, no, we are better than that. We are conquerors.

 

[Grazer]

You won't get banned unless you are promoting sin and rack up at least 3 infractions and the mod's wouldn't delete your post.

I take it that you are either gay, or believe in gay marriage. Neither disqualifies you as having a relationship with God in community. We all have struggles, but we don't want to put our views above the biblical views. We call this in part carrying our cross. It is where we deny our feelings, and allow the Spirit to transform our lives. We are not survivors, no, we are better than that. We are conquerors.

The latter

 

[ColdBlooded]

Both churches think they are right though. The Bible can be interpreted so many different ways, that's why there are so many denominations of the same faith.
It's hard to say the're wrong because it's impossible to say concretely who is right.

 

[stovebolts]

Both churches think they are right though. The Bible can be interpreted so many different ways, that's why there are so many denominations of the same faith.
It's hard to say the're wrong because it's impossible to say concretely who is right.

I don't want to turn this into a debate on gay marriage. But the Bible is pretty clear that marriage is between a man and a woman and you certainly don't see any same sex unions between Jews. This is not to say that society will not ordain same sex marriages, but society as a whole is not the church.

 

[Grazer]

evidentaial ones? Like what? Did Jesus really exist? Did he really die? What proof do we have he was raised from the dead? Is the trinity a core belief to be accepted? Baptism? Confession? One believes the Biblical account or they don't and if we spend the bulk of our time trying to prove these things then we are getting pulled away from our mission.

What does the Bible tell us? (NIV)
1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

What did Jesus tell demon possessed man after he drove them out?

Mark 5 18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” 20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.

Everyone has a story! Tell your story!

2 Corinthians 3:2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Finally, Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Tell me, what is more important? A church that focus more on teaching the trinity, core doctrines such as baptism, etc and defends Christ, or a church that helps people grow as individuals and live according to God's plan where healing can occur and healthy relationships can flourish?

Those questions are good examples of what I meant yes. As for my story, mine starts with having questions and getting answers (eventually) The questions I had were around the evidential side. I remember saying to a Christian "This [the Christian faith] would be awesome and amazing if it's true. But I'm not going to believe simply on that basis, there must be evidence"

As for what is more important? Neither, I say a church should be able to do both. I was talking to some teenagers and asking them questions. One of them asked me what evidence I had for the resurrection after I had explained that is was the evidence for this that really made me think "ok, there is something to this" I gave him a brief outline in 2 minutes and he said "thank you, you're the first person who's been able to answer my questions" He's part of an organization that is affiliated to a church and he's struggling to get answers about the most fundamental part of the Christian faith - that to me is absolutely shocking!!!

 

[stovebolts]

Those questions are good examples of what I meant yes. As for my story, mine starts with having questions and getting answers (eventually) The questions I had were around the evidential side. I remember saying to a Christian "This [the Christian faith] would be awesome and amazing if it's true. But I'm not going to believe simply on that basis, there must be evidence"

As for what is more important? Neither, I say a church should be able to do both. I was talking to some teenagers and asking them questions. One of them asked me what evidence I had for the resurrection after I had explained that is was the evidence for this that really made me think "ok, there is something to this" I gave him a brief outline in 2 minutes and he said "thank you, you're the first person who's been able to answer my questions" He's part of an organization that is affiliated to a church and he's struggling to get answers about the most fundamental part of the Christian faith - that to me is absolutely shocking!!!

I suppose I could have worded it a bit differently. Yes, getting those types of questions answered are very important, but it still comes down to believing since there is no scientific basis for a resurrection of anyone. It comes down to if we believe the first hand account of the biblical writers, and there are many that cause doubt in this area.

But I would say that once this is established, then the transformation of ones life, attitude and outlook begins by being obedient to the word of God, and all this comes through faith. You see, your faith is a beacon of light for others to see. When they see the noticeable difference in your life, and it's all for the good, then they ask questions.. they want to know. And when they see how Christ has changed you, that brings glory to God. Again, Paul says knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. Elsewhere he says that without love, he is as a clanging gong.... For some of us, and I realize not all of us it's very difficult to love our enemy. To love those that try to break our faith down and cause us to disbelieve through fine arguments. Relationships are not streanghened by strong sounding arguments, they are built off loving one another.

So, I suppose what I should have said was yes, your questions should be answered, but it should not be the bulk of what is preached in the pulpit. Church if for believers and it is the believers job to go tell their story to others. Sadly, many think that it's the preachers job to bring people to Christ and we get the idea our part is simply inviting people to church. I think that was my main thought when I posted earlier.

Thanks.

 

[Grazer]

I suppose I could have worded it a bit differently. Yes, getting those types of questions answered are very important, but it still comes down to believing since there is no scientific basis for a resurrection of anyone. It comes down to if we believe the first hand account of the biblical writers, and there are many that cause doubt in this area.

But I would say that once this is established, then the transformation of ones life, attitude and outlook begins by being obedient to the word of God, and all this comes through faith. You see, your faith is a beacon of light for others to see. When they see the noticeable difference in your life, and it's all for the good, then they ask questions.. they want to know. And when they see how Christ has changed you, that brings glory to God. Again, Paul says knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. Elsewhere he says that without love, he is as a clanging gong.... For some of us, and I realize not all of us it's very difficult to love our enemy. To love those that try to break our faith down and cause us to disbelieve through fine arguments. Relationships are not streanghened by strong sounding arguments, they are built off loving one another.

So, I suppose what I should have said was yes, your questions should be answered, but it should not be the bulk of what is preached in the pulpit. Church if for believers and it is the believers job to go tell their story to others. Sadly, many think that it's the preachers job to bring people to Christ and we get the idea our part is simply inviting people to church. I think that was my main thought when I posted earlier.

Thanks.

I completely agree with that, people need to see Christ shining in our lives. I just feel that the questions aspect gets over looked and the standard answer seems to be "you just need faith"

 

[stovebolts]

I completely agree with that, people need to see Christ shining in our lives. I just feel that the questions aspect gets over looked and the standard answer seems to be "you just need faith"

Yes, we need a reason for our faith and it is based on the hope we have in what jesus has done. I believe hebrews 11 touches on such a cloud of witnesses we have!

But iknow what you mean. Some need a little more explanation thansimply saying that you need faith.

Assuming one is able to take the bible at face value,we have luke who did due dilagence to offer an accurate account. That is always a good starting point. And I believe luke writes that jesus was walking around for 40 days after he was raised from the dead and there was thomas whoneeded to see with his own eyes and actually got to put his hand in the side of jesus and touch the holes where the nails where driven.

Yes,we need to tell the story of jesus... I think it would help.

 

[ColdBlooded]

I don't want to turn this into a debate on gay marriage. But the Bible is pretty clear that marriage is between a man and a woman and you certainly don't see any same sex unions between Jews. This is not to say that society will not ordain same sex marriages, but society as a whole is not the church.

But see that's the thing I was talking about. Some people think just the term marriage is affected, but the bible doesn't say anything against other unions. Christianity is really diverse because what people feel and interpret come before what is the truth. And some times what is true isn't exactly clear.

For example, "thou shalt not kill" is a commandment. By itself, it simply means do not kill, but it is understood commonly that self defense is justified, even among Christians. But that contradicts the commandment which is simple and concrete. The commandment doesn't justify any killing period, be it human, animal, bacteria, anything. But that is where the bible ends and interpretations and opinions begin.

The bible didn't cover specific things like abortion and self defense, so you have to apply teaching to cover those areas and they are open to different opinions. There can't be a universal truth unless every exception is ruled out.

 

[stovebolts]

But see that's the thing I was talking about. Some people think just the term marriage is affected, but the bible doesn't say anything against other unions. Christianity is really diverse because what people feel and interpret come before what is the truth. And some times what is true isn't exactly clear.

For example, "thou shalt not kill" is a commandment. By itself, it simply means do not kill, but it is understood commonly that self defense is justified, even among Christians. But that contradicts the commandment which is simple and concrete. The commandment doesn't justify any killing period, be it human, animal, bacteria, anything. But that is where the bible ends and interpretations and opinions begin.

The bible didn't cover specific things like abortion and self defense, so you have to apply teaching to cover those areas and they are open to different opinions. There can't be a universal truth unless every exception is ruled out.

And you have hit on a very good point. If you had to live bound to the OT law, you would quickly find that it is impossible to keep every commandment, thus the sacrificial system. But in the process, you would be faced with choices and decisions how you would live your life and you would wrestle with which commandment held more weight than the other.

We call this learning discernment because scripture is always in tension. We like to put things in very black and white categories, but scripture doesn't always let us do that which causes a lot of paradoxes, hence the wrestling with scripture.

Paul put it like this: 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It is no small task at times to rightly divide the word of God, but I assure you it is more about discernment than ridged rules.

That being said, Scripture paints a picture of a union and that picture is of a man and a woman. Thus, the two became one flesh. Scripture also talks much about same sex, or sex with your children and even animals and that doesn't take much discerning to conclude that God doesn't approve of it.

Do people have attractions for the same sex? Absolutely. Can two people of the same sex love each other? Certainly. Can two people of the same sex have sex? Of course they can. One more question. Can a society accept this as normal? Again, the answer is yes. But from a biblical perspective, does God approve of it? I think the answer is pretty clear, and that's a big no.

So then the next thing people ask is, "Why did God create them that way". One could ask the same question why God allows so much suffering and the discussion could and does go on and on and on and on and on.

 

[for_his_glory]

A person walks out of their church and another not of their church ask them what they learned in service, the reply back is usually I don't know, but it sure made me feel good. An ice cream cone can make me feel good, but even this is temporal and soon forgotten just as what the Pastor preached is soon forgotten as it was only a feel good temporal moment.

We do not need a feel good church for where is the witness and testimony of Christ. What we need is Gods true church where the meat of the word is served in all truths so we not only walk out the door with knowledge and understanding, which only comes by the Holy Spirit using those to teach us, but to take that which we have learned and feed others.

James 1:19-27
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.