Two Kinds of Eternal Inheritance; Even Former Believers Are Still His

[ChristDependent]

There are two kinds of eternal inheritance that even former believers will find themselves in.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Verse 18 testify of those that err from the truth and had their faith overthrown, and yet verse 19 still signifies them as still His and they are still called to depart from iniquity.

Verse 20 testify to the repercussion for not going before that throne of grace for His help in discerning & departing from iniquity, and those who do not depart from iniquity will be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House whereas in verse 21 those that have repented by His grace & by His help, shall be received as vessels unto honor in His House.

This is why His disciples labor so that saved believers will run that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help them to discern and lay aside every weight & sin in running that race for the high prize of our calling to obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus which is to be that vessel unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

The vessel unto dishonor that will be in His House are those that testify to the power of God in salvation for even those that just believe in His name, but the cost is high because they will become castaways; as in left behind at the pre trib rapture event. So an unrepentant believer loses more than just "crowns".

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Again, there are two kinds of inheritance in the kingdom of heaven;

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Being left behind when God judges His House first at the pre trib rapture will be the cause of weeping and gnashing of teeth as Esau did in tears by losing out of his birthright for a meal, but though the prodigal son lost his inheritance to wild living and can never have it back, he is still son.

 

[Jim Parker]

Verse 18 testify of those that err from the truth and had their faith overthrown, and yet verse 19 still signifies them as still His and they are still called to depart from iniquity.

No it doesn't say that at all.
And why not read it in a language that you speak instead of Late Middle English which is not longer spoken? If you did, you might have less difficulty with the language.

 

[ChristDependent]

No it doesn't say that at all.
And why not read it in a language that you speak instead of Late Middle English which is not longer spoken? If you did, you might have less difficulty with the language.

Feel free to name the Bible version you are using to prove otherwise, brother.

 

[Jim Parker]

Feel free to name the Bible version you are using to prove otherwise, brother.

It's not a version problem.
It's a comprehension problem.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

You said "Verse 18 testify of those that err from the truth and had their faith overthrown,"
If you read the opening of the passage (a novel idea!) it says:
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
It is Hymenaeus and Philetus who have erred and caused OTHER PEOPLE (indicated by the word "some") to loose their faith.

Here it is in modern English: (RSV) 2Ti 2:16 Avoid such godless chatter, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will eat its way like gangrene. Among them are Hymenae'us and Phile'tus, 18 who have swerved from the truth by holding that the resurrection is past already. They are upsetting the faith of some.

 

[Mike]

No it doesn't say that at all.
And why not read it in a language that you speak instead of Late Middle English which is not longer spoken? If you did, you might have less difficulty with the language.

Jim, with your first response, you managed to ignore two basic rules of the A&T. Use scripture to support your understanding if it differs from that which you are responding to. Don't just comment and refute with nothing to add. You know that. Finally, be respectful. Don't flame.

 

[ChristDependent]

It's not a version problem.
It's a comprehension problem.

Seems like you were ragging on my use of the KJV to me per this portion of your earlier quote.

And why not read it in a language that you speak instead of Late Middle English which is not longer spoken?

But moving on...

You said "Verse 18 testify of those that err from the truth and had their faith overthrown,"
If you read the opening of the passage (a novel idea!) it says:
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
It is Hymenaeus and Philetus who have erred and caused OTHER PEOPLE (indicated by the word "some") to loose their faith.

By your example of the RSV below, it sounds like these people still have their faith, but are just "upset".

Here it is in modern English: (RSV) 2Ti 2:16 Avoid such godless chatter, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will eat its way like gangrene. Among them are Hymenae'us and Phile'tus, 18 who have swerved from the truth by holding that the resurrection is past already. They are upsetting the faith of some.

In any event, by your statement rather than by your RSV quote, you seem to agree that some will err from the truth and have their faith overthrown or as you put it, lose their faith. That's pretty much in line with believers that no longer believe. I mean, if they believe that the resurrection was past already, who would want to continue in the hope of the gospel if that special resurrection had come and gone already? So this is addressing those no longer of the faith and thus no longer believes, and yet the truth here is that His foundation stands sure having His seal as He still abides even in former believers as proof here.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. KJV

Here's the RSV for confirmation.

2 Timothy 2:3 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself. RSV

I like the KJV because it lines up what is being said in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 on why former believers are still called to depart from iniquity because they are still His.

I don't get that line up of 2 Timothy 2:13 1 with 2 Timothy 2:18-21 in the RSV at all.

 

[smaller]

Feel free to name the Bible version you are using to prove otherwise, brother.

First of all the "rapture" discussions probably won't find a long stay here. I'm not a pre-trib fan, although I might like to think that would be the case, but I don't.

Secondly, there is no 'vessel of honor' who reverts back to a vessel of dishonor.

Paul showed us in 2 Tim. 2:20-21 that we do have to "purge ourselves" from the vessel of dishonor. This would be a somewhat long side discussion. But vessels of dishonor are in fact permanently discarded. They do not change, back and forth, from a vessel of dishonor, to a vessel of honor, and then back again to a vessel of dishonor. That would not compute. Just as the bad tree can not produce good fruit, so it is with the vessels, so it is also with claiming children of the devil are "converted" to children of God and then can convert back again. None of that happens.

If we observe Paul's state in 2 Cor. 12:7 we can see BOTH vessels in ONE lump. It's the same sight given in Romans 9:20-23, Romans 7:21, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 12:7, 2 Tim. 2:20-21 and correlated by many other scriptures such as the basis for the entire teaching of it in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables from which they stem.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim, with your first response, you managed to ignore two basic rules of the A&T. Use scripture to support your understanding if it differs from that which you are responding to. Don't just comment and refute with nothing to add. You know that. Finally, be respectful. Don't flame.

I followed up with the scriptures in post #4.
Suggesting that (s)he read a modern English version to make the meaning more evident is not flaming. It's a reasonable suggestion.
No flaming was intended.

 

[ChristDependent]

First of all the "rapture" discussions probably won't find a long stay here. I'm not a pre-trib fan, although I might like to think that would be the case, but I don't.

I believe that is when God will judge His House first at the pre trib rapture, receiving only the vessels unto honor and casting away the vessels unto dishonor for not looking to Him for help to depart from iniquity.

Secondly, there is no 'vessel of honor' who reverts back to a vessel of dishonor.

2 Timothy 2:20 cites two kinds of vessels that are actually IN His House.

Paul showed us in 2 Tim. 2:20-21 that we do have to "purge ourselves" from the vessel of dishonor. This would be a somewhat long side discussion. But vessels of dishonor are in fact permanently discarded. They do not change, back and forth, from a vessel of dishonor, to a vessel of honor, and then back again to a vessel of dishonor. That would not compute. Just as the bad tree can not produce good fruit, so it is with the vessels, so it is also with claiming children of the devil are "converted" to children of God and then can convert back again. None of that happens.

If you ever tell a backslidden believer to repent, what is that? That would be 2 Timothy 2:21 if he does so with His help.

If we observe Paul's state in 2 Cor. 12:7 we can see BOTH vessels in ONE lump. It's the same sight given in Romans 9:20-23, Romans 7:21, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 12:7, 2 Tim. 2:20-21 and correlated by many other scriptures such as the basis for the entire teaching of it in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables from which they stem.

I am not sure I want to go over all those references to get the theme you are trying to espouse, but here are 2 questions for you to ponder.

How can there be a vessel unto dishonor in His House as testified in 2 Timothy 2:20?

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

How can any one break the least of His commandments and teach others so still be in His kingdom?

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[smaller]

I believe that is when God will judge His House first at the pre trib rapture, receiving only the vessels unto honor and casting away the vessels unto dishonor for not looking to Him for help to depart from iniquity.

I believe it is entirely about the destruction of the devil and his messengers. And I'd actually LIKE to be here to see that happen myself, even though it may be painful for our own flesh, in the transition.

 

[ChristDependent]

I believe it is entirely about the destruction of the devil and his messengers. And I'd actually LIKE to be here to see that happen myself, even though it may be painful for our own flesh, in the transition.

Not me. Do note the promise I am hoping for in verse 22 as well as for everything else.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Psalm 27:4 One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of theLord, and to enquire in his temple. 5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. 6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord. 7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me. 8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face,Lord, will I seek. 9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Psalm 33:18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the Lord: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O Lord, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

 

[smaller]

Not me. Do note the promise I am hoping for in verse 22 as well as for everything else.

I'm not about to disagree with any scripture.

But for "end time" I'm more of a Matt. 25 sight.

 

[ChristDependent]

I'm not about to disagree with any scripture.

But for "end time" I'm more of a Matt. 25 sight.

Any specific reference in that chapter because it is not all about the same certain moment in time.?

One reference in that chapter of verses 31-46 is pertaining to the time after Satan's last rebellion for that small season which will be after the milleniel reign of Christ. After Satan has been put down for the last time into the lake of fire, the remaining living on this world at that time will be judged as it will be around the time of the great white throne judgment on the dead too.

All other verses prior to that in that chapter is referring to a time at the pre trib rapture when God judges His House first.

 

[smaller]

Any specific reference in that chapter because it is not all about the same certain moment in time.?

Specifically the sheep/goat separation section, which points exactly to the end of the goats. Entirely dependent on the methodology employed to dissect the parable.

One reference in that chapter of verses 31-46 is pertaining to the time after Satan's last rebellion for that small season which will be after the milleniel reign of Christ. After Satan has been put down for the last time into the lake of fire, the remaining living on this world at that time will be judged as it will be around the time of the great white throne judgment on the dead too.

Millennial matters can be a bit slippery. In the event above I don't think the "loosing" of Satan is successful whatsoever on his part.

All other verses prior to that in that chapter is referring to a time at the pre trib rapture when God judges His House first.

All parables are dissected in with the same methodology. Linking them to time, generally speaking, is problematic unless they refer to a universal end, which I think Matt. 25 sheep/goats does, and that transpires on earth, imho.

Having spent 3 decades studying these things from just about every aspect there is I'm still not locked into the common divisions that are in the sphere, pre-mid-post-amil etc. It's territory that is purposefully obscured with allegory. Some things can be determined very solidly, and one of those things is the end of Satan and his messengers. That much is a hard line fact, and "the end" point that is good to establish.

A common trap that most students (all believers are students) is that it is a dire time of massive killing. I'm not convinced of that either. Gods "tools" of destruction are not like the sensationalism that people tend to read into them. For example we are to overcome evil with good. In essence good is a victor in defeating the foe of evil. Is that then dire? No. And I tend to look along these lines, that the eternal things of God are the methods of destruction at the end. Our minds have a problematic time seeing this direction.

So, just for kicks, take Jesus statement of Matt. 24:37 referring to the days of Noah, that it will be "as" that. As means similarly, but not exactly.

We can turn to Isaiah to see what the next "as" Noah event will be, and find it to be the opposite of the first Noah event:

Isaiah 54:
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

There is a standard that is employed by Paul in 1 Cor. 15 that is a pattern that God employs, that being first the natural, then the spiritual. The first Noah event was a "natural" event. The second is a spiritual event, as above.

So, likewise, the first coming of Jesus was as a natural man, the second as a Spiritual Man, performing His Changes, which only He can perform. Phil. 3:21 speaks directly to this as well.

 

[ChristDependent]

Specifically the sheep/goat separation section, which points exactly to the end of the goats. Entirely dependent on the methodology employed to dissect the parable.

Millennial matters can be a bit slippery. .....

All parables are dissected in with the same methodology. Linking them to time, generally speaking, is problematic unless they refer to a universal end, which I think Matt. 25 sheep/goats does, and that transpires on earth, imho.

Not everything in a chapter is about the same topic; FYI. An example of this is in Matthew 24th chapter where Jesus is answering three questions put to Him as to when the Temple will be thrown down, what are the signs of His coming and the signs of the end. Jesus is obviously not answering those questions in order, and He does go back and forth on the last two questions, and so wisdom & discernment is needed there as well as in Matthew 25th chapter.

In Matthew 25 th chapter, Jesus is addressed as the King, and it is the nations of the world that is being brought before Him, and since it is the final judgment on the living in going into everlasting punishment; this is why I read that as happening after Satan's last rebellion at the end of the small season after His milleniel reign when the generations yet to be born and having grown up in a perfect world will be tested.

All those other parables before that one starting in verse 31 & ending in verse 46 is about how God will judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event, but again, I cannot convince you as only Jesus can confirm that for you.

 

[smaller]

Not everything in a chapter is about the same topic; FYI. An example of this is in Matthew 24th chapter where Jesus is answering three questions put to Him as to when the Temple will be thrown down, what are the signs of His coming and the signs of the end. Jesus is obviously not answering those questions in order, and He does go back and forth on the last two questions, and so wisdom & discernment is needed there as well as in Matthew 25th chapter.

In Matthew 25 th chapter, Jesus is addressed as the King, and it is the nations of the world that is being brought before Him, and since it is the final judgment on the living in going into everlasting punishment; this is why I read that as happening after Satan's last rebellion at the end of the small season after His milleniel reign when the generations yet to be born and having grown up in a perfect world will be tested.

All those other parables before that one starting in verse 31 & ending in verse 46 is about how God will judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event, but again, I cannot convince you as only Jesus can confirm that for you.

Parables have rules of engagement. That's kind of all I was saying. So, depending on the dissection methods readers are going to come to different conclusions.

As to the "common" pre-trib postures, I really don't think the position has a clue.

Being "caught up or meeting in the air" from 1 Thess. 4:17 for example has exactly nothing to do with the earth's air atmosphere.

 

[ChristDependent]

Parables have rules of engagement. That's kind of all I was saying. So, depending on the dissection methods readers are going to come to different conclusions.

Yeah, but His wisdom will let us know what the message He was intending to share with us.

As to the "common" pre-trib postures, I really don't think the position has a clue.

Being "caught up or meeting in the air" from 1 Thess. 4:17 for example has exactly nothing to do with the earth's air atmosphere.

Do explain how else it could mean, because I cannot fathom it yet.

 

[smaller]

Do explain how else it could mean, because I cannot fathom it yet.

Well, let's start with some basics.

We know that the Spirit of Christ dwells IN us already. There, within, is the Transformer in the temple of flesh. The final transformation is what is on the horizon, spoken of by Paul in Phil. 3:21 and 1 Cor. 15, the NEW Glorified Completed Body of Christ with "all" the members thereof.

Knowing then where Christ already IS, in us, in "parts" distributed into temporal flesh bodies. Many having already been "harvested" to Him in passing.

Where is the kingdom of God? Luke 17:21. Within. That is the Spirit of Christ in us.

Let's move to the air, and see what's there?

I like to start with Mark 4 (vs 13 specifically), which is the dissecting instrument for "all" parables (and I include in this, allegories, similitudes, metaphors, etc all in the same class)

Mark 4:
3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

Was Jesus talking about literal birds flying around in literal atmosphere? Uh, no. It is a parable. But a parable of WHAT?

Jesus unveils the parable to His Diciples, privately, because it is NOT given for others to understand. Even as I write this any natural or flesh man reader won't understand it, and they can't, even when it's right in front of their eyes to see. But here goes:

Mark 4:
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

In the above we can directly overlay the statement from earlier in the chapter and now identify that the fowls of the air are in fact Satan (and by extension his wicked messenger angels/demons/devils) and the air is in fact THE HEART.

Paul employs this direct methodology again in Eph. 2:2

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The air is in spiritual terms, the heart of man. The "prince" of the power of the air/heart is SATAN in the unbeliever, stealing, as the thief of Word, also the "spirit of disobedience." Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4. The RAPTOR CAPTOR of the spiritual blinded so to speak.

When we are "caught up/meeting in the air" it is in fact a PICTURE of Jesus coming forth from within His temples of flesh, defeating the enemy in the heart and making that FINAL CHANGE that is spoken of in Phil. 3:21 and other places, by defeating our "internal enemy" in the flesh temple, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience.

It is in fact the Revealing of Christ IN US.

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We can also tie an entire array of similar statements/promises from the O.T. scriptures

It has absolutely nothing to do with either our physical or spiritual bodies floating off into the earths atmosphere.

Everything that Paul fought so hard for was this revealing of Christ IN HIM, this RESURRECTION, while he was still in his own VILE flesh temple. This is also the "quest" that is laid before all of us.

Philippians 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Basic lesson of the day.

 

[Jim Parker]

By your example of the RSV below, it sounds like these people still have their faith, but are just "upset".

Ok. I tried.

 

[ChristDependent]

Ok. I tried.

Thanks for trying. It shows you care.