Unconditional Election or did God foreknow something in us Conditioned Salvation upon?

[Alfred Persson]

Election to salvation is clearly God's choice:

That God chose whom he would save is a common theme in Scripture. God’s eternal decree is all-encompassing, and salvation likewise comes according to his own gracious purpose (Acts 13:48; Rom 8:28–30; Eph 1:11; 2 Tim 1:9). Those whom God saves are those whom he chose to save (Eph 1:4; 1 Thess 1:4–5; 2 Thess 2:13–14, etc.).-Factbook, Logos Bible Software

Because unconditional election seems "unjust", many agree with Arminius and read into "foreknow" something in the "foreknown" must have merited election, rending it conditional. But context and scripture fix the "time" of God's election BEFORE creation, before we did good or bad:

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (Rom. 9:11 KJV)

And so the debate has raged for centuries. But I propose there is an "elegant" (conforming to scripture) solution that keeps the best part of unconditional election (salvation by grace not works, eternal security) while rejecting the conclusion God didn't actually base his election on something He foreknew, like Peter says we are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2 NKJ)":

When faced with two contrary statements and both are correct its clear a different perspective is required to resolve the conflict. To illustrate, the following statements are both 100% correct yet seem to contradict each other:

At 9 AM today John entered the state of New York”
At 9 AM today John left the state of New Jersey”.

The correct perspective resolves the contradiction. These are border states, John left the border state of New Jersey precisely as he entered New York.

So also the apparent contradiction between “Unconditional” and “Conditional” Election. God conditioned election according to what we were in His omniscience, not according to us now after He chose to create.

Before God created, in His Omniscience He knew everyone who would spring into existence, both the “unfallen version” and “fallen version”; God knew who would choose life in Holiness with Him and who would choose evil and want to live separate from Him. Both the “children of God” and the “children of the Devil” were fully known to Him.

By a special act of “foreknowledge”, God “knew before” all those who loved Him, somewhat like we experience “highlighted text” before its surrounding darkened text. And God loved them even more (cp. Rom. 11:2). [2] Therefore, before they did anything good or bad God predestined those He foreknew loved Him unto salvation, regardless what their “fallen versions” do in this fallen realm:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew[2], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom. 8:28-31 NKJ)

Predestination unto salvation is the action God took to guarantee none of His children were lost because of the Fall.

Therefore, Paul does not contradict Peter and in Romans 8:29 actually agrees with Peter as the context requires only the Elected were foreknown and predestined..

God Predestined those He foreknew would fall, unto salvation. Not based upon anything the “fallen version” were or did in this life. It was God’s good will and pleasure not to lose any of His beloved because the Fall prevented the “unfallen version” from coming into existence.

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It’s probably better to stick to the conditions we must fulfill in order to be saved. The question is never whether God does His part or not. The question is what necessary but insufficient part we must complete and have we done so. One condition, for example, that cannot be disputed it’s so clear, is that if we do not forgive others the wrong they did us, we will not be forgiven. Whether God knew this in advance or not won’t help us.

 

[Exeter]

Election to salvation is clearly God's choice:


Because unconditional election seems "unjust", many agree with Arminius and read into "foreknow" something in the "foreknown" must have merited election, rending it conditional. But context and scripture fix the "time" of God's election BEFORE creation, before we did good or bad:



And so the debate has raged for centuries. But I propose there is an "elegant" (conforming to scripture) solution that keeps the best part of unconditional election (salvation by grace not works, eternal security) while rejecting the conclusion God didn't actually base his election on something He foreknew, like Peter says we are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2 NKJ)":

When faced with two contrary statements and both are correct its clear a different perspective is required to resolve the conflict. To illustrate, the following statements are both 100% correct yet seem to contradict each other:


The correct perspective resolves the contradiction. These are border states, John left the border state of New Jersey precisely as he entered New York.

So also the apparent contradiction between “Unconditional” and “Conditional” Election. God conditioned election according to what we were in His omniscience, not according to us now after He chose to create.

Before God created, in His Omniscience He knew everyone who would spring into existence, both the “unfallen version” and “fallen version”; God knew who would choose life in Holiness with Him and who would choose evil and want to live separate from Him. Both the “children of God” and the “children of the Devil” were fully known to Him.

By a special act of “foreknowledge”, God “knew before” all those who loved Him, somewhat like we experience “highlighted text” before its surrounding darkened text. And God loved them even more (cp. Rom. 11:2). [2] Therefore, before they did anything good or bad God predestined those He foreknew loved Him unto salvation, regardless what their “fallen versions” do in this fallen realm:


Predestination unto salvation is the action God took to guarantee none of His children were lost because of the Fall.

Therefore, Paul does not contradict Peter and in Romans 8:29 actually agrees with Peter as the context requires only the Elected were foreknown and predestined..

God Predestined those He foreknew would fall, unto salvation. Not based upon anything the “fallen version” were or did in this life. It was God’s good will and pleasure not to lose any of His beloved because the Fall prevented the “unfallen version” from coming into existence.

What about reprobation? The unfortunate unelected. Surely no-one is denied Salvation because God has decreed it be so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

“Whosoever will” sounds like the man’s choice plays a significant role.

 

[stovebolts]

It’s probably better to stick to the conditions we must fulfill in order to be saved. The question is never whether God does His part or not. The question is what necessary but insufficient part we must complete and have we done so. One condition, for example, that cannot be disputed it’s so clear, is that if we do not forgive others the wrong they did us, we will not be forgiven. Whether God knew this in advance or not won’t help us.

I always took that verse to say that if we can't settle it here on earth, then it will be settled when we have our day before the mighty throne of God.

 

[JLB]

Because unconditional election seems "unjust", many agree with Arminius and read into "foreknow" something in the "foreknown" must have merited election, rending it conditional. But context and scripture fix the "time" of God's election BEFORE creation, before we did good or bad:

Do you believe God can foresee the future, before he created anything?




JLB

 

[JLB]

It’s probably better to stick to the conditions we must fulfill in order to be saved. The question is never whether God does His part or not. The question is what necessary but insufficient part we must complete and have we done so. One condition, for example, that cannot be disputed it’s so clear, is that if we do not forgive others the wrong they did us, we will not be forgiven. Whether God knew this in advance or not won’t help us.

So true.

That’s a good one!

Forgiveness is crucial.


Love. Absoloutly!

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

However, it begins with believe.


JESUS says it this way —

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16





JLB

 

[christian1724]

God Predestined those He foreknew would fall, unto salvation. Not based upon anything the “fallen version” were or did in this life.

Maybe there are yet other possibilities?
For example, our Father's interaction with us is, in part, more dynamic in nature.

Example:

Luke 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

An observant Truth seeker, believing that God is bound by His own Word, will love to read the above Words. Now he can pray to God for understanding of His Word and then immediately open His Word and begin diligently studying it looking for understanding. God, unwilling/unable to allow His Word to be unreliable, will at some point provide for the request (so long as it is reasonable and not offensive to Him).

If the man never opens the scriptures to diligently study them, then he can not expect to understand it.
However, by opening and studying His Word, he has performed an action which is based upon the reliable Words of God Himself.

For many, if not most people, it's more of a dynamic existence. You still have the freedom to set sail on your own boat but if you set your navigation according to the compass of God's Word then He is able, even pleased, to direct the winds and currents to bring you to the proper destination.

For most, their future is based on their beliefs and the actions that they take on those beliefs, don't you think.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Do you believe God can foresee the future, before he created anything?




JLB

God is infinite and Omniscient, He doesn't need "foreknowledge" to foreknow as a finite creature existing in time would. In Scripture God's foreknowledge is analogous to "seeing highlighted text" BEFORE reading everything surrounding it. God knows all things, He chose to "foreknow those who love Him" to experience them uniquely BEFORE everyone else He decided would come into existence, through His creation. So "foreknowledge" is a FUNCTION of God's Omniscience, it is taking form His Knowledge of all things, a portion of what is known to "know if" before everything else. Can't say anything more than that, it would be speculation.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Maybe there are yet other possibilities?
For example, our Father's interaction with us is, in part, more dynamic in nature.

Example:

An observant Truth seeker, believing that God is bound by His own Word, will love to read the above Words. Now he can pray to God for understanding of His Word and then immediately open His Word and begin diligently studying it looking for understanding. God, unwilling/unable to allow His Word to be unreliable, will at some point provide for the request (so long as it is reasonable and not offensive to Him).

If the man never opens the scriptures to diligently study them, then he can not expect to understand it.
However, by opening and studying His Word, he has performed an action which is based upon the reliable Words of God Himself.

For many, if not most people, it's more of a dynamic existence. You still have the freedom to set sail on your own boat but if you set your navigation according to the compass of God's Word then He is able, even pleased, to direct the winds and currents to bring you to the proper destination.

For most, their future is based on their beliefs and the actions that they take on those beliefs, don't you think.

There is a distinction made in scripture that applies to your theory. We are saved by grace (=God's unmerited kindness), not by works we do, BUT its "through faith" that happens in linear time:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:8-10 NKJ)

So Arminus would say "Aha, God predicated salvation on people showing faith, opening the scriptures and believing!"

But that contradicts we not only are saved by God's grace alone and not our works, but even our faith is a gift from God. We are "His Workmanship", we didn't fashion ourselves as saved people:

13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:13 NKJ)

Where the doctors of the faith erred, leading many to conclude the corollary of unconditional election is Reprobation, is that fact of God's Omniscience. God "foreknew" a version of everyone who comes into being in this creation, that is NOT what we are in this fallen creation. God "foreknew" those who loved Him, and He loved them even more. Therefore, God predestines the Elect unto salvation, they cannot be lost. Satan will NOT victory, even the least of God's elect WILL BE SAVED.

But God is not partial, everyone is saved "through faith". If a man does not open his Bible up and Believe in this life, He will do so in the next. Hence we read those who have died and endured God's Judgment, eagerly await the return of Christ when they will rise to a resurrection of life, not condemnation:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Notice is says "those who have 'done good' AFTER hearing His voice while still in the grave. These rise unto "the resurrection of life."

 

[Alfred Persson]

Maybe there are yet other possibilities?
For example, our Father's interaction with us is, in part, more dynamic in nature.

Example:

An observant Truth seeker, believing that God is bound by His own Word, will love to read the above Words. Now he can pray to God for understanding of His Word and then immediately open His Word and begin diligently studying it looking for understanding. God, unwilling/unable to allow His Word to be unreliable, will at some point provide for the request (so long as it is reasonable and not offensive to Him).

If the man never opens the scriptures to diligently study them, then he can not expect to understand it.
However, by opening and studying His Word, he has performed an action which is based upon the reliable Words of God Himself.

For many, if not most people, it's more of a dynamic existence. You still have the freedom to set sail on your own boat but if you set your navigation according to the compass of God's Word then He is able, even pleased, to direct the winds and currents to bring you to the proper destination.

For most, their future is based on their beliefs and the actions that they take on those beliefs, don't you think.

I should point out, my belief in post-mortem evangelization is not classic Christianity and is traditionally thought to be heresy. However, I believe its 100% correct according to the scriptures and think I proved it so on my site a EndTimeNews.net.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What about reprobation? The unfortunate unelected. Surely no-one is denied Salvation because God has decreed it be so.

"Reprobation" is a logical consequence of unconditional salvation, if God's foreknowledge concerns everyone who comes into existence in this fallen creation.

BUT if there is a greater context, then "Reprobation" isn't the logical consequence of unconditional election.

Consider this: God knows all things, therefore He knew everyone in two versions. First, the unfallen version. What we would have been if the fall never happened. Second, the fallen version where many die never hearing about Christ, or do wicked acts because this fallen world "molded" them.

Lest God lose one of them He foreknew, in a special act of Omniscience where He likely enjoyed the fellowship of the Elect, God predestines them He foreknew unto salvation. Satan will have no victory at all, God is Sovereign.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (Rom. 8:28-35 NKJ)

Not even death can separate the elect from God, hell itself is made to work for the good of all those who loved God in His omniscience.

BECAUSE we are NOT that version who existed in the unfallen realm in the Mind of God, it is correct and 100% true we are saved by God's unmerited grace and not works we do in this life. If any of the Elect die unsaved, then they will repent and believe in Hell and be saved:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:26-36 NKJ)

So God does not Reprobate anyone. If the nonElect repent and believe in Jesus, they will be saved. AND like the Elect, they can be saved "through faith" either in this life, or in hell when the torments in hell burn all delusion and sin away, restoring their "free will" so they can choose God, or reject Him. Therefore, God does not reprobate, all have an equal chance to be saved, But God will have mercy upon those whom He chooses. Because that is His prerogative:

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." (Rom. 9:18-25 NKJ)

What commentators miss in this context, is Paul is speaking about the living. Its all about revealing the glory of God to the living. Reprobation is not in this verse at all, it says nothing about those in Hades.

 

[christian1724]

But that contradicts we not only are saved by God's grace alone and not our works, but even our faith is a gift from God.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is a 'drawing?' sort of spirit dwelling within us (a persons conscience maybe). It doesn't necessarily have to dwell within us. If at some point the Holy Spirit becomes sufficiently offended it may choose to diminish it's presence or God help the poor soul that the Spirit chooses to depart from all together. If the 'drawing' toward Truth/Light leaves a person, how can that person get it back? How can they again connect with Truth if they are no longer drawn toward it?​

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

A person's beliefs are composed of things that they hold to be Truth/reliable. If a person recognizes something as reliable they tend to order their actions around those reliable beliefs (Faithing). Faith is action based on a held belief, NOT a belief alone. It is impossible to please God without faith.​

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So that is my viewpoint, at least currently.
EndTimeNews.net - That link didn't work

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe that the Holy Spirit is a 'drawing?' sort of spirit dwelling within us (a persons conscience maybe). It doesn't necessarily have to dwell within us. If at some point the Holy Spirit becomes sufficiently offended it may choose to diminish it's presence or God help the poor soul that the Spirit chooses to depart from all together. If the 'drawing' toward Truth/Light leaves a person, how can that person get it back? How can they again connect with Truth if they are no longer drawn toward it?​

A person's beliefs are composed of things that they hold to be Truth/reliable. If a person recognizes something as reliable they tend to order their actions around those reliable beliefs (Faithing). Faith is action based on a held belief, NOT a belief alone. It is impossible to please God without faith.​

So that is my viewpoint, at least currently.
EndTimeNews.net - That link didn't work

The Third Person of the Holy Trinity (the Triune Yahweh who is One God) is not an "it", notice how He commands the apostles and says "I' "Me":

As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (Acts 13:2 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe that the Holy Spirit is a 'drawing?' sort of spirit dwelling within us (a persons conscience maybe). It doesn't necessarily have to dwell within us. If at some point the Holy Spirit becomes sufficiently offended it may choose to diminish it's presence or God help the poor soul that the Spirit chooses to depart from all together. If the 'drawing' toward Truth/Light leaves a person, how can that person get it back? How can they again connect with Truth if they are no longer drawn toward it?​

A person's beliefs are composed of things that they hold to be Truth/reliable. If a person recognizes something as reliable they tend to order their actions around those reliable beliefs (Faithing). Faith is action based on a held belief, NOT a belief alone. It is impossible to please God without faith.​

So that is my viewpoint, at least currently.
EndTimeNews.net - That link didn't work

I did something wrong, I didn't answer all of your concerns, so this is a continuation of the post above it stating the Holy Spirit is not an "it"

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2 Cor. 5:17 NKJ)

God the Holy Spirit does not permit a "duplex", once He is in the believer there is no space for any other spirit:

You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. (1 Jn. 4:4 NKJ)

Eternal Security is a gift of God, not dependent upon men and their loyalty. God is loyal, we are not. If a believer falls away, and returns to the pollutions they once escaped, it would have been better if they never were Christians in this life:

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." (2 Pet. 2:20-3:1 NKJ)

But the dog who returned to his own vomit dies and goes to hell, where terrible torments purge him of all sin and delusion, and he will be saved to the uttermost. God is loyal even if men are not:

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. (2 Tim. 2:13 NKJ)

I agree faith without works is dead, useless. But James wasn't contradicting Eternal Security of the Believer or saying the elect could lose their salvation, he was simply observing "faith without works is dead" just as a "body that does not breath is dead".

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jas. 2:26 NKJ)

An analogy: A dark light bulb has no electricity lighting up its filament. A dark light bulb is useless, but the bulb still exists. But its not performing anything useful. So a Christian who has no works, what good is he?

 

[JLB]

God is infinite and Omniscient, He doesn't need "foreknowledge" to foreknow as a finite creature existing in time would.

He doesn’t need “foreknowledge“ to foreknow?

Interesting, since they mean the same thing… one is a verb and the other a noun

fore·know
/fôrˈnō/

verb
LITERARY

1. be aware of (an event) before it happens.
   "he foreknows his death like a saint"

fore·knowl·edge
/fôrˈnäləj/

noun

1. awareness of something before it happens or exists.
   "there was the foreknowledge of every role she would dance"

God is infinite and Omniscient, He doesn't need "foreknowledge" to foreknow as a finite creature existing in time would. In Scripture God's foreknowledge is analogous to "seeing highlighted text" BEFORE reading everything surrounding it. God knows all things, He chose to "foreknow those who love Him" to experience them uniquely BEFORE everyone else He decided would come into existence, through His creation. So "foreknowledge" is a FUNCTION of God's Omniscience, it is taking form His Knowledge of all things, a portion of what is known to "know if" before everything else. Can't say anything more than that, it would be speculation.

Yes God knows all things, even before they happen, because He is Omniscient and has foreknowledge and therefore He foreknows things before they happen.



Now back to my question —


Do you believe God can foresee the future, before he created anything?


My answer would be yes.


What’s yours?





JLB

 

[JLB]

post-mortem evangelization

Post-Mortem evangelization?


Do you mean preaching the Gospel to people who are dead?




JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

Post-Mortem evangelization?


Do you mean preaching the Gospel to people who are dead?




JLB

Yes. I see that in scripture both explicitly and implicitly taught.
Scripture where repentance in Hell is presumed, implied or explicitly stated:

(1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3; 49:15; 56:14; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 88:1-18; 107:10-15; 116:3-9; 118:17-18; 139:8; Isa. 4:4; 26:19-21; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 20:11-15 )

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (Jon. 2:2 KJV)

I called on Your name, O LORD, From the lowest pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr). (Lam. 3:55 NKJ)

1 I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr), out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. (Ps. 40:1-3 KJV)

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr) wherein is no water. (Zec. 9:11 KJV) Compare Luke 16:24

This opens the possibility Billions of people can be saved, not just a few.

For example, rather than impose post-apostolic bias all raised from Death and Hades are unsaved wicked, we can accept the clear implication of John’s negative: ” anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire”—-it implies SOME WERE found written in the Book of Life and therefore NOT cast into the fire: [3]

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ) (Compare John 5:28-29; Dan. 7:10)

The names of the Elect are in the Book of Life (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 13:8; 17:8) but other names cannot be of the “Elect” because those names can be blotted out (Rev. 3:5; Exod. 32:32; Ps. 69:28) or written in (Ps. 69:28; 87:6; Dan. 12:1; Mal. 3:16). That requires other books exist, one for those who will be written in, and another for those blotted out, so they can be properly listed for judgment.

 

[Alfred Persson]

He doesn’t need “foreknowledge“ to foreknow?

Interesting, since they mean the same thing… one is a verb and the other a noun

fore·know
/fôrˈnō/

verb
LITERARY

1. be aware of (an event) before it happens.
   "he foreknows his death like a saint"

fore·knowl·edge
/fôrˈnäləj/

noun

1. awareness of something before it happens or exists.
   "there was the foreknowledge of every role she would dance"

Yes God knows all things, even before they happen, because He is Omniscient and has foreknowledge and therefore He foreknows things before they happen.



Now back to my question —


Do you believe God can foresee the future, before he created anything?


My answer would be yes.


What’s yours?





JLB

God knows all things WITHOUT foreknowledge. His Foreknowledge is not about seeing the future, its about "seeing a portion of what He already knows, before everything else". A finite creature existing in time lives in the present and can't see the future. God is not only Omniscient, He is infinite. Past present and future exist in God, all spacetime exists in God:

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Ki. 8:27 NKJ)

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:17 NKJ)

Spacetime is God's creation, it exists in Him. He is not "contained" in it, it is contained in Him. God dwells in Eternity is another way to say it:

15 For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones. (Isa. 57:15 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

He doesn’t need “foreknowledge“ to foreknow?

Interesting, since they mean the same thing… one is a verb and the other a noun

fore·know
/fôrˈnō/

verb
LITERARY

1. be aware of (an event) before it happens.
   "he foreknows his death like a saint"

fore·knowl·edge
/fôrˈnäləj/

noun

1. awareness of something before it happens or exists.
   "there was the foreknowledge of every role she would dance"

Yes God knows all things, even before they happen, because He is Omniscient and has foreknowledge and therefore He foreknows things before they happen.



Now back to my question —


Do you believe God can foresee the future, before he created anything?


My answer would be yes.


What’s yours?





JLB

Yes, God not only knew everything that existed "if the fall never happened," He also knew everything that came into existence because of the Fall. Some wonder why God would create knowing all the evil that would come into existence. He did so in order that the good also come into existence, and not just be a thought in His infinite Mind.