Unconditional Election or did God foreknow something in us Conditioned Salvation upon?

[brightfame52]

Election is unconditional because God made the choice of His people in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, hence before the elect were ever born. So they had no being to perform any conditions.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Election is unconditional because God made the choice of His people in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, hence before the elect were ever born. So they had no being to perform any conditions.

Doesn’t seem to invite discussion or am I mistaken?

 

[brightfame52]

Doesn’t seem to invite discussion or am I mistaken?

Hi, did you care to discuss the post?

 

[JLB]

Election is unconditional because God made the choice of His people in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, hence before the elect were ever born. So they had no being to perform any conditions.

People are saved when the believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

JLB

 

[Exeter]

So God does not Reprobate anyone. If the nonElect repent and believe in Jesus, they will be saved. AND like the Elect, they can be saved "through faith" either in this life, or in hell when the torments in hell burn all delusion and sin away, restoring their "free will" so they can choose God, or reject Him. Therefore, God does not reprobate, all have an equal chance to be saved, But God will have mercy upon those whom He chooses. Because that is His prerogative:

Yes, the doctrine of Predetermined Reprobation is false.

Also, no-one is born Elect, but God foreknows who becomes His Elect, these having once:

• been dead in transgressions and sins
• walked according to the course of this world
• walked according to the prince of the power of the air
• been children of disobedience with the spirit of Satan working in them
• lived in the lusts of the flesh
• done what the flesh and the mind desired
• been by nature children of wrath

Eph 2:1-3 You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins, (2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience; (3) among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

There is a clear path of logic and reasoning that links Adam and Eve's eating forbidden fruit to their guilt for doing so, otherwise any penalty for their doing so would be unjust. The penalising of Adam and Eve's act of disobedience proves and reinforces God's provision of freewill and self-volition in His human Creation.

Satan and his cohort, Adam and Eve in Eden, Cain, Esau, Pharaoh opposing Moses in Egypt, Judas, Ananias and Saphira, and anyone who stubbornly resists the grace of God do all become subject to predetermined consequences, but their urge to sin doesn't come from God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes, the doctrine of Predetermined Reprobation is false.

Also, no-one is born Elect, but God foreknows who becomes His Elect, these having once:

• been dead in transgressions and sins
• walked according to the course of this world
• walked according to the prince of the power of the air
• been children of disobedience with the spirit of Satan working in them
• lived in the lusts of the flesh
• done what the flesh and the mind desired
• been by nature children of wrath

Eph 2:1-3 You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins, (2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience; (3) among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

There is a clear path of logic and reasoning that links Adam and Eve's eating forbidden fruit to their guilt for doing so, otherwise any penalty for their doing so would be unjust. The penalising of Adam and Eve's act of disobedience proves and reinforces God's provision of freewill and self-volition in His human Creation.

Satan and his cohort, Adam and Eve in Eden, Cain, Esau, Pharaoh opposing Moses in Egypt, Judas, Ananias and Saphira, and anyone who stubbornly resists the grace of God do all become subject to predetermined consequences, but their urge to sin doesn't come from God.

I agree Predetermined Reprobation is false, but so is your idea God "foreknows who becomes His Elect." You confuse saving faith which happens in linear time with an Act God did before He created anything:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
(Eph. 1:4-7 NKJ)



As JLB said "People are saved when they believe" in the only name under the heavens whereby men are saved, but they were elected before they did anything good or bad:



12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)



11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."

13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Rom. 9:11-18 NKJ)



Being saved happens in time through faith, being elected happened before Time existed.

 

[Alfred Persson]

He doesn’t need “foreknowledge“ to foreknow?

Interesting, since they mean the same thing… one is a verb and the other a noun

fore·know
/fôrˈnō/

verb
LITERARY

1. be aware of (an event) before it happens.
   "he foreknows his death like a saint"

fore·knowl·edge
/fôrˈnäləj/

noun

1. awareness of something before it happens or exists.
   "there was the foreknowledge of every role she would dance"

Yes God knows all things, even before they happen, because He is Omniscient and has foreknowledge and therefore He foreknows things before they happen.



Now back to my question —


Do you believe God can foresee the future, before he created anything?


My answer would be yes.


What’s yours?





JLB

Consider this. If God learned the future via foreknowledge, then before the action in the verb God was not omniscient.

As God always is and was Omniscient, foreknowing for Him is different than it is for us FINITE beings. In other words, the verb and the noun have different senses when used of infinite omniscient God, or us finite creatures.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There elect an

I agree Predetermined Reprobation is false, but so is your idea God "foreknows who becomes His Elect." You confuse saving faith which happens in linear time with an Act God did before He created anything:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
(Eph. 1:4-7 NKJ)



As JLB said "People are saved when they believe" in the only name under the heavens whereby men are saved, but they were elected before they did anything good or bad:



12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)



11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."

13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Rom. 9:11-18 NKJ)



Being saved happens in time through faith, being elected happened before Time existed.

D: There elect angels too. Since they are also designated as “elect,” were they to be such before time existed. (It is probably more accurate to say time as we know it to be existed but that’s cumbersome.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Consider this. If God learned the future via foreknowledge, then before the action in the verb God was not omniscient.

As God always is and was Omniscient, foreknowing for Him is different than it is for us FINITE beings. In other words, the verb and the noun have different senses when used of infinite omniscient God, or us finite creatures.

Those who place the foundation of their theology on how they think God experiences his abilities are assuming a great deal too much, I suspect.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi, did you care to discuss the post?
D: Hi, well I could. Let me ask you, what are the elect elected before the foundation of the world to be and do?

 

[Alfred Persson]

It’s probably better to stick to the conditions we must fulfill in order to be saved. The question is never whether God does His part or not. The question is what necessary but insufficient part we must complete and have we done so. One condition, for example, that cannot be disputed it’s so clear, is that if we do not forgive others the wrong they did us, we will not be forgiven. Whether God knew this in advance or not won’t help us.

I agree, and that proves our complete dependence on the ransom of sacrifice of Christ to be saved. Everyone is guilty of that and other sins.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
(Col. 1:19-22 NKJ)

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 Jn. 2:1-2 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

What about reprobation? The unfortunate unelected. Surely no-one is denied Salvation because God has decreed it be so.

I agree.

At Christ's return the survivors of Armageddon will be judged. Three classes of humanity appear during this "Sheep and Goat Judgment", not just two.

These are: 1) the Church saved by Grace aka “These My Brethren” (Mt. 25:40). They were “gathered” (2 Thess. 2:1) from the earth during Christ’s coming in glory. They reign with Christ as Kings and Priests (Rev. 1:6; 20:4-6; 1 Thess. 4:14-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-58; Mat. 24:29-31; Rev. 14:14-16). They are not being judged with the survivors of Armageddon because they became Christians before death. He who believes in Christ in this life “shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” (Joh. 5:24).;
2) the “sheep”;
3) the “goats”.

Same happens in the end time judgement, three classes of dead rise to be judged and this changes the binary construct imposed upon Judgment Day. When the books are opened, Christians are already in the Book of life. Other names can be written in later (Ps. 69:28; 87:6; Dan. 12:1; Mal. 3:16). That means “sheep” as well as “goats” would be rising from Hades because they failed to consummate their relationship to Christ in this life—-to be judged according to their works written in the books (Rev. 20:11-15).

Just as good works (vicariously receiving Christ Mt. 25:40) indicated free will choice for Christ so also good works (obeying Christ’s voice in the grave John 5:28-29) indicates free will choice for Him as their LORD and so God extends unmerited grace adding their names to the Book of Life. Both acts imply one freely chose to receive “Christ as Lord”, which is the only requirement for grace to be unleashed.

In other words, its possible the unsaved repent after they physically die once they learn the truth of their situation (1 Pet. 4:6; Heb. 9:27-28; Ps. 86:11-13; Zech. 9:11).

That repentance after death is possible is the only way to explain how MANY of those who died for sins and who enter “a Judgment” —which is synonymous with “a trial” or “a determination” (2920 κρίσις krisis), can eagerly wait for Christ’s second coming for their salvation:[7]

They learn the truth about God and life after they die, and were ‘judged according to men in the flesh but now live according to God in the Spirit’ (1 Pet. 4:6), “that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus” (1 Cor. 5:5)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ) [6]

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 NKJ) [6a]

The Great White Throne Judgment occurs at the End of Christ’s Millennial Kingdom, it is called “Judgment Day” and not “Sentencing Day” because the risen dead are JUDGED according to their works (Rev. 20:12-13). That can include whether they repented in Hades and professed faith in Christ in Hell when they “hear” (= obey John 5:24; Lk. 10:16) Christ’s voice while still in the grave and those who have “done good”[8] rise to a resurrection of life as this “telescoped prophecy” plainly says (John 5:28-29):

28 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 “and come forth– those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Therefore, Catholic-Protestant confirmation bias that refuses to accept scripture that repentance in Hell is possible must be rejected as unsound.

Scripture where repentance in Hell is presumed, implied or explicitly stated:

(1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3; 49:15; 56:14; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 88:1-18; 107:10-15; 116:3-9; 118:17-18; 139:8; Isa. 4:4; 26:19-21; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 20:11-15 )

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (Jon. 2:2 KJV)

I called on Your name, O LORD, From the lowest pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr). (Lam. 3:55 NKJ)

1 I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr), out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. (Ps. 40:1-3 KJV)

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr) wherein is no water. (Zec. 9:11 KJV) Compare Luke 16:24

This opens the possibility Billions of people can be saved, not just a few.

 

[Alfred Persson]

There elect an


D: There elect angels too. Since they are also designated as “elect,” were they to be such before time existed. (It is probably more accurate to say time as we know it to be existed but that’s cumbersome.)

I believe the angels were created "in the beginning" when God created the heavens (plural) and the earth.

NKJ Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Gen. 1:1 NKJ)

When God began fashioning the earth they rejoiced:

KJV Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:7 KJV)

So they didn't exist until God created spacetime.

 

[JLB]

Consider this. If God learned the future via foreknowledge, then before the action in the verb God was not omniscient.

Nobody mentioned God “learning“ the future… just you


Do you believe God can foresee the future, before he created anything?

 

[JLB]

Election is unconditional because God made the choice of His people in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, hence before the elect were ever born. So they had no being to perform any conditions.

The elect need salvation just like everyone else.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10





JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

Nobody mentioned God “learning“ the future… just you


Do you believe God can foresee the future, before he created anything?

Of course, He is Omniscient. Moreover, He is already in the future, as well as the past, and beyond both because all spacetime exists in Him and consist by His Almighty power:

KJV Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity (Isa. 57:15 KJV)

NKJ Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:17 NKJ)

So do you believe God learns something new when He foreknows?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe the angels were created "in the beginning" when God created the heavens (plural) and the earth.

NKJ Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Gen. 1:1 NKJ)

When God began fashioning the earth they rejoiced:

KJV Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:7 KJV)

So they didn't exist until God created spacetime.

True but none of that answers my question. Angels are referred to as “elect angels.” I’m asking if “elect” means the same when referring to the angels?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree, and that proves our complete dependence on the ransom of sacrifice of Christ to be saved. Everyone is guilty of that and other sins.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
(Col. 1:19-22 NKJ)

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 Jn. 2:1-2 NKJ)

The test comes in how we actually behave towards real people. Dependence upon Christ’s sacrifice means you make yourself DO as he teaches whether you feel like it or not.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I've always looked at predestination as God deciding from the beginning to save people who put their faith in him,

to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa.66:2

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Whosoever will.