Under Law? Under Grace, or both?

[jaybo]

I'm not talking about the works of the law that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. I'm talking about the greatest of the law/commandments being love that comes first and foremost that we keep as being our obedience to the moral laws as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

The Holy Spirit keeps us in line with the will of God, not your list. That's what the Bible says; that's what I believe. You're either under law or under grace. There are no other alternatives.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Holy Spirit keeps us in line with the will of God, not your list. That's what the Bible says; that's what I believe. You're either under law or under grace. There are no other alternatives.

By keeping these parts of the law I listed, found within the 613 laws that all are to keep are God's commands for us to keep us in His will as we walk in the greatest commandment of love being the will of God as we are guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[jaybo]

By keeping these parts of the law I listed, found within the 613 laws that all are to keep are God's commands for us to keep us in His will as we walk in the greatest commandment of love being the will of God as we are guided by the Holy Spirit.

Even though your statement is confusing to me, we are not required to keep any of the Old Covenant laws. We are not under law but under grace.

 

[for_his_glory]

Even though your statement is confusing to me, we are not required to keep any of the Old Covenant laws. We are not under law but under grace.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

It's not that confusing. We can see clearly what Jesus said in these two verses. Jesus already fulfilled the laws that pertain to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite as no one, especially the Jews is no longer under that part of the law if they are under grace accepting Christ as the Messiah come. These parts of the law were written for the Israelites, but yet the moral parts which I showed in that list is what helps us to keep the will of God, which is that of love towards others as in how we treat one another so we will always be pleasing to the Lord showing love for one another.

We need to present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us. This is a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Morality in God is His greatest commandment of love as we treat others as we want others to treat us. God is love and wants us to love and treat others as He loves and treats us.​

 

[for_his_glory]

jaybo If you go to your search engine and type in Judaism 101 you can read all 613 laws listed under Deeds in the drop down box.

 

[jaybo]

I have no idea what you're talking about so let's end the discussion. Matthew 5:17, a verse you selected, says, "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them." That's good enough for me.

I will pray for you that you come to the understanding that Jesus, Himself God, paid the price in full for all violations of any and all OT laws. Christians are no longer under any law; we have been given the Holy Spirit.

That's it for me...

 

[JLB]

Christians are no longer under any law; we have been given the Holy Spirit.

So you don’t believe we are under the law of the Spirit;
the law of Christ?


What has set you free from the law of sin and death?


I hate to break the news to you, but we are under a stricter law than the law of Moses, with and more severe penalty, because we have been given a born again divine nature, empowered by the Holy Spirit, much more is expected of us.


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2


Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

• Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 20-22

• For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

JLB

 

[jaybo]

So you you don’t believe we are under the law of the Spirit;
the law of Christ?


What has set you free from the law of sin and death?


I hate to break the news to you, but we are under a stricter law than the law of Moses, with and more severe penalty, because we have been given a born again divine nature, empowered by the Holy Spirit, much more is expected of us.


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2


Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

• Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 20-22

• For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

JLB

Jesus Christ is my Savior. He has set me free from the law of sin and death. It grieves me that you have such a flawed understanding of the fulfillment of the law by Jesus' sacrifice. I will pray that your "eyes" might be opened to the truth. I will not discuss this issue with you any longer. If, as a Christian, you believe that you are still under the law, you have denied the freedom Christ died for.

 

[JLB]

Jesus Christ is my Savior. He has set me free from the law of sin and death. It grieves me that you have such a flawed understanding of the fulfillment of the law by Jesus' sacrifice. I will pray that your "eyes" might be opened to the truth. I will not discuss this issue with you any longer. If, as a Christian, you believe that you are still under the law, you have denied the freedom Christ died for.

It’s clear you didn’t read what I wrote, which means you disregarded the scriptures I presented to you for you to evaluate.


Why would you think that I believe I am under the law, when I plainly said the law of Moses was abolished at the cross.


Maybe if you would simply answer my question, we could have a good conversation.


So you don’t believe we are under the law of the Spirit;
the law of Christ?


What has set you free from the law of sin and death?


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:1-2

• For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

We are indeed under grace; the Spirit of grace, which is also the Spirit of Life, and the Spirit of Truth.


Being under the law means we are under obligation to obey the law.


Being under grace, means we are under obligation to obey grace; the Spirit of grace, the Spirit of truth, the Spirit of life, the Spirit of Christ.



Do you understand that there is such a law as the law of Christ?


Not the law of Moses, but the law of Christ.


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2


Do you understand we are to obey Jesus Christ as our Lord?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9






JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

UNDER LAW? UNDER GRACE? OR BOTH?

You might have raised eyebrows now, or about ready to comment something negative, but wait a minute, to answer this question, which has been a popular theme in Judeo-Christianity, let’s first take a look at the meanings of these words.

“GRACE” something that is not merited, or deserved. Something we get when we shouldn’t get it. “By GRACE we are saved, not of ourselves, nor by our works, so that no man can boast (saying that he or she did this and that in order to receive God’s acceptance). The Hebrew word for “grace” is “Chen” (pronounced with a guttural “h”) if we look at the word using the ancient Paleo-Hebrew, we can see the symbolism of “The fence of life” Life is within the fence. A fence is to keep in precious and valuable things and keep unwanted things out. Yeshua has us within his “fence of love and salvation” just because He loves us.

“LAW” has been misinterpreted for so long. The word “law” comes from the Latin word “Legis” which means “something legal or legalistic.” However, the Hebrew word that is used is “Torah” which means “instruction.’ If we are to interpret the meaning of “Torah” in Paleo-Hebrew we would see; “The first Covenant of the nail revealed.” If this word had been translated correctly into Latin, it would have been; “instructio” or “educatio” and not “legis”

The Apostol Paul many times refers to “not being under the LAW.” He is stating that we are NOT under LEGALISM, or obedience to the commandments of God IN ORDER TO OBTAIN SALVATION!. Salvation (Yeshuah) comes by GRACE, Through “Yeshua” (play on words?) by our faith and faith in the one-time atonement/sacrifice on Calvary’s Cross. However, as members of God’s family, we now should “walk in and follow the “Instructions of God” (The Torah) which consists of His commandments, not for salvation purpose but because we ARE SAVED. The commandments, which are 613, are for our education, welfare, and spiritual maturity. Of course, not all of the 613 are for today, there are many which are not for today because there is no more temple, the Levitical priesthood is no more, we are not in Israel, etc., yet there are many that ARE for today. Which ones? That requires Bible study and that is on ALL OF US, to search the scriptures. The 10 commandants are the basic ones, the others fall under those 10 categories.

Yes, we are also under grace. Adam and Eve were under grace. Grace was in the Garden of Eden (wait, I thought her name was Eve?) LOL. Had not God given Adam and Eve grace, they would have been killed right then and there. Noah would have perished in the flood, had it not been for God’s grace, and we would all be flowers, trees, grass, or fish today.

So, what is the answer? Are we under Law? Or Grace? Or both? WE can say both YES and NO. Yes, we are under grace, NO we are NOT under legalism, and YES, we are guided by God’s instructions in His Word. At least we should be, but that is the decision that every believer has to make for himself or herself. Following HIS WORD is what our lives are all about. Living for HIM now and reap benefits in the World to Come.

Baruch Ha Shem! (Praise the LORD)

Rabbi Ben Avraham

As a small gift to all you readers, I am enclosing a free copy of my eBook; God Tales, for your reading enjoyment, be blessed by the short stories and poems about the faith. Don't expect to read it in one sitting because it has 172 pages. Read at your leisure, maybe you can transfer it to your own PC archives so you'll have it to keep.

Hello Rabbi, great post.
Thanks.

 

[jaybo]

It’s clear you didn’t read what I wrote, which means you disregarded the scriptures I presented to you for you to evaluate.


Why would you think that I believe I am under the law, when I plainly said the law of Moses was abolished at the cross.


Maybe if you would simply answer my question, we could have a good conversation.


So you don’t believe we are under the law of the Spirit;
the law of Christ?


What has set you free from the law of sin and death?


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:1-2

• For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

We are indeed under grace; the Spirit of grace, which is also the Spirit of Life, and the Spirit of Truth.


Being under the law means we are under obligation to obey the law.


Being under grace, means we are under obligation to obey grace; the Spirit of grace, the Spirit of truth, the Spirit of life, the Spirit of Christ.



Do you understand that there is such a law as the law of Christ?


Not the law of Moses, but the law of Christ.


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2


Do you understand we are to obey Jesus Christ as our Lord?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9






JLB

What is it about ". I will not discuss this issue with you any longer" that you don't understand.

 

[D-D-W]

"Under Law? Under Grace, or both?"​

I find the question somewhat disingenuous. As Paul uses the term "under the Law," he is referring to being judged and penalized for breaking the Law. Under its judgement.

"Under Grace," OTOH is a misunderstanding IMO, and perhaps a mistranslation; even though in Romans 6 he used the same word. "Under" in the greek is hypo, (G5259) Here is how it is translated elsewhere:

The KJV translates Strong's G5259 in the following manner: of (116x), by (42x), under (48x), with (14x), in (1x), not translated (6x), miscellaneous (3x).

Perhaps we should follow the majority selection and say we are not OF or BY the Law; but are OF or BY Grace. In fact, that passage makes perfect sense in changing that translation. Here is a modified (from the NASB) of that part of Romans 6:

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not [of the] law but [of] grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not [of the] law but [of] grace? May it never be!

 

[ezrider]

There seems to be a lot of semantics at play between the law and grace. Did grace exist under the law? Is there a law under grace?

I think the question of are we under the law or we under grace is better understood as the covenant relationship with the Lord. The question of are you under the law is analogous to being under the old covenant according to the laws of sin and death. Those who are under Grace would be analogous to the new covenant in Christ.

It was repeated a number of times in this thread, and I realize the comments were posted a year ago, but i was stated the Christ only fulfilled part of the law, and then goes on to talk about ceremonial ordinances and such. But may a little common sense is in order. How can a law be fulfilled? What law is to be fulfilled at the second coming?

The Law is not fulfilled, the Law is meant to be obeyed. Prophecy on the other hand, now that may be fulfilled. The law to be obeyed required obedience to the law. But for prophecy a to be fulfilled, that required obedience to Faith. The end of the law is Death.

What has set you free from the law of sin and death?

Death has set me free from the law of sin and death.

I hate to break the news to you, but we are under a stricter law than the law of Moses, with and more severe penalty, because we have been given a born again divine nature, empowered by the Holy Spirit, much more is expected of us.

I think this is in need of an explanation. You said we are under a stricter law than the law of Moses. This comment of yours seems to stand in direct opposition to the words of Jesus.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[JLB]

Death has set me free from the law of sin and death.

The scriptures teach us it was life that set us free from the law of sin and death… the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ.


For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2




JLB

 

[JLB]

I think this is in need of an explanation. You said we are under a stricter law than the law of Moses. This comment of yours seems to stand in direct opposition to the words of Jesus.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29



In Christ we can indeed walk according to His laws and commandments because we have the Spirit empowering us to do this very thing, which is called grace; the Spirit of grace.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3





JLB

 

[jaybo]

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29



In Christ we can indeed walk according to His laws and commandments because we have the Spirit empowering us to do this very thing, which is called grace; the Spirit of grace.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3





JLB

I really wish that this statement should be read over and over and over... until it is clearly understood. It would solve people's misunderstandings and eliminate interminable discussions...

"In Christ we can indeed walk according to His laws and commandments because we have the Spirit empowering us to do this very thing, which is called grace; the Spirit of grace."

 

[Mosheli]

I agree with you.

What do you mean by:
The 10 commandments are the basic ones,,,the others fall under those 10 categories?
What categories?
Sorry if I missed something in reading the OP.

He means (I think) that all the other 603 laws are covered within the 10 commandments and are like further details elaborations.

 

[Mosheli]

Old: law is external (or "religion/bind"/slavery, like a straightjacket, like Romans misused christianity as a way to control people).
New: law is written in our heart (like the law tablets in ark in temple/heart).

Hence they had no codified law before Moses because they were not so far fallen before then.
Like in modern times they keep adding more and more draconian laws because lack of rebirth.

The perfect law is spiritual and impossible to codify/write perfectly.

Legalism is beleiving we are able to earn/merit/deserve by merely keeping the letter of all the law(s), like Cain's sacrifice, like the Baker in Joseph story (baking = sweat), like sailors in Jonah 1-2 trying to row and throw cargo overboard and pray their gods.
It is possible to keep laws but not love, but it is not possible to love and not keep law(s).

If we are begging for grace/mercy we can't be doing the opposite.

We can not make our selves like the Word/Torah/Logos, only by being One with him are we made like him (again like the ark in temple is symbol of Yeshua in our heart).

Cain's sacrifice - Abel's sacrifice
works/effort/earn/merit/deserve - faith/grace
law - grace
sacrifice - mercy/loving-kindness
baker - cupbearer
goat - sheep
tares - wheat
flesh - spirit
Old/6 - New/8.
Letter of law - spirit of law.
flesh/carnal - spirit
fig leaves - skins.
external law / shallow - law in heart / deep
heavy yoke/burden - light/easy.
seed of serpent - seed of woman.
don't look at serpent on pole - do look at serpent on pole
Pharisee/self-righteous - tax-collector/mercy.
pray gods / row / throw cargo overboard - thrown Jonah overboard.
commandments - love/Me (Yeshua/Jesus)

(Though it is not all dualistic just a type of picture.)

0 - lawless, antinomian, licentious
1 - Love Lord (or Love neighbour)
2 - love lord & love neigbhour
7 - Noahide laws.
10 - 10/12 commandments
12 - 12/10 commandments
613 - 613 Mosaic laws.

Moses name means draw out. Yeshua's name means "Yah salvation/saves".
We all pass under same cloud and through same sea.

Re the beatitudes I noticed that Matthew/Levi to Hebrews/Jews has more, Luke to Greeks has less, Mark to Romans has least.

 

[Randy]

I am under Christ.

 

[JLB]

Death has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Incorrect.



For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2



JLB