Understanding Catholicism – Mary and the Saints

[WIP]

Your surprise at that surprises me.
It's biblical so of course Catholics believe it.

As the catechism says:
946 After confessing "the holy catholic Church," the Apostles' Creed adds "the communion of saints." In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?" The communion of saints is the Church.

That is what I have come to believe but what I remember from my Catholic teaching is that the saints referred to were only those the Catholic church canonized and this has been one of my disagreements with the Catholic doctrines.

 

[Mungo]

That is what I have come to believe but what I remember from my Catholic teaching is that the saints referred to were only those the Catholic church canonized and this has been one of my disagreements with the Catholic doctrines.

They probably meant Saints with a capital "S" - those in heaven, rather than saints (small "s") - those still on earth.

 

[JLB]

I'll add purgatory onto the list of threads I have to start. But one at a time.

You don’t have to start a thread.

I just responded to your post with scripture.


You can choose not to respond to my post.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

This is something I did not know before. Is this a new doctrine?

You knew this before WIP.
It's just what a saint is in the Catholic understanding.
Like St. Joseph
St. Anthony
St. Francis,
etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's not the part that caught me by surprise. Your statement that the body of Christ are all saints is what caught me by surprise. I have never heard this in Catholic circles before.

WIP
There have been many changes in the CC since you left.
As you know, I also left many years ago due to the reasons I've explained many times.

But I am in the CC right now although I can by no means call myself a Catholic since I disagree with so much doctrine.

We are now all called saints.
It seems to me that the CC is trying to catch up and is educating the laity.
A bit late in my humble opinion, but better late than never.

 

[GodsGrace]

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1




JLB

Due to the teachings of the necessity for confession and two different levels of sin,
the CC necessarily believes that we die with sin that is not confessed to a priest.

As Revelation states, nothing unclean will go to h eaven - Rev. 21:27
This uncleanliness must be purged...the verb of purgatory.
Souls are made clean in purgatory.

This, of course, renders Jesus' sacrifice of no effect since it is still necessary to "clean" ourselves.
You posted a perfect verse, as usual.

It seems to me that if the CC wants to come to terms with a doctrine that took hundreds of years to develop and did NOT exist in the Early Church Fathers writings, they will have to do away with confession in some way, and, eventually, with purgatory.

Although how this could happen I can't fathom right now.

I wonder what Niblo thinks about this...

 

[GodsGrace]

I'll add purgatory onto the list of threads I have to start. But one at a time.

I think it would be easier for you to just respond to the questions asked.
Eventually you'll find that a thread will be started on every important doctrine, and, I dare say,
more than once. So you'll probably be answering questions more than once.

 

[WIP]

Due to the teachings of the necessity for confession and two different levels of sin,
the CC necessarily believes that we die with sin that is not confessed to a priest.

As Revelation states, nothing unclean will go to h eaven - Rev. 21:27
This uncleanliness must be purged...the verb of purgatory.
Souls are made clean in purgatory.

This, of course, renders Jesus' sacrifice of no effect since it is still necessary to "clean" ourselves.
You posted a perfect verse, as usual.

It seems to me that if the CC wants to come to terms with a doctrine that took hundreds of years to develop and did NOT exist in the Early Church Fathers writings, they will have to do away with confession in some way, and, eventually, with purgatory.

Although how this could happen I can't fathom right now.

I wonder what Niblo thinks about this...

Confession is one thing I miss from my Catholic life and I do not think it should be eliminated. In fact, it is one thing I think we, in my current Lutheran congregation, take too lightly. And I have expressed this opinion on more than one occasion to our congregation.

I do have questions/concerns about some of the Catholic teaching and traditions about confession. For example, I do not believe it is something that necessarily must be done before a priest. I believe confession can be done with any member of the Church (James 5:16, Galatians 6:1-2) or to God Himself (Psalm 32:5, 1 John 1:9) and if some prefer to involve a priest, that too is perfectly fine but to mandate it with a priest is wrong in my opinion.

I also have concerns about the use of prayers as a means of penance. The very fact that I have come to confession demonstrates my penitent heart. Particularly repetitious prayers which Jesus most certainly warned against (Matthew 6:7-8). There is nothing wrong with repeating a prayer for Jesus Himself did it (Matthew 26:36-44, Mark 14:32-39) but to repeat it many times over because one is ordered to do so by a priest over the top and becomes vain prayer. I remember the priest assigning me penance with multiple "hail Mary's" and "Our Fathers." Prayer is a personal heartfelt conversation between ourselves and God and to just repeat memorized words that don't come from the heart isn't prayer in my opinion. Penance means self punishment and to assign prayer as a penance demeans the very act of praying and worship. Jesus never said we are to punish ourselves for our sins. He said that we are to repent (Matthew 4:17, Luke 5:32) and that's something entirely different.

 

[Mungo]

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5


Mary gave birth to the flesh and blood Man, Jesus Christ.


God is Spirit. Mary did not give birth to Spirit.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6





JLB

Can you clarify something for me?
Is it your belief that Jesus was not God?
Thanks

 

[Mungo]

You don’t have to start a thread.

I just responded to your post with scripture.


You can choose not to respond to my post.





JLB

I responded to your post. You asked

What is “purgation”?


Please explain this term.

And I explained the term.
To go into the scripture for Purgatory will take time and I think it's better to start a new thread.
It's going off into these sort of off topic tangents that make threads unmanageable.

I don't have time for multiple threads, especially since we have family coming up for Easter tomorrow and there is a lot of preparation to do.

 

[Niblo]

I wonder what Niblo thinks about this...

Niblo is thinking: 'Ouch! A grumpy Old Man like me can very quickly go off certain folk, don't you know?' .

I've a lot on at the moment - and am away over the weekend. In šāʾ Allāh, I'll come back during the course of next week.

Thank you - in advance - for your patience!

May the Beloved extend special blessings to you - and to all you love - over this Easter.

Very best regards.

 

[Mungo]

The comments about Purgatory have been moved to a new thread- Purgatory