Understanding Catholicism – Mary and the Saints

Mungo

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The Saints
Catholics believe the Church exists in three states, those on earth, those in heaven and those undergoing purgation. All are part of the one body of Christ (Rom 12:4-5) and with Christ as the head are linked together. We are not separated by death (Rom 8:35-39)
This is expressed in the phrase in the Apostles Creed – the communion of saints.

Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’.

We believe the Saints in heaven are available to us to intercede on our behalf and so we pray to them (ask them) for their help, just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us. (Rom 15:30) (see Praying to the Saints in Heaven)
We recognise that their prayers, as holy and righteous ones are powerful and effective. (Jas 5:16)

They are part of the cloud of witnesses who surround us and support us as we run the race (Heb 12:1).

Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers in their generations. The Lord apportioned to them great glory, his majesty from the beginning. There were those who ruled in their kingdoms, and were men renowned for their power, giving counsel by their understanding, and proclaiming prophecies; leaders of the people in their deliberations and in understanding of learning for the people, wise in their words of instruction; those who composed musical tunes, and set forth verses in writing; rich men furnished with resources, living peaceably in their habitations-- all these were honoured in their generations, and were the glory of their times. There are some of them who have left a name, so that men declare their praise. Peoples will declare their wisdom, and the congregation proclaims their praise. (Sir 44:1-8, 15)

It then goes on the give examples and what they did – Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses Aaron, Phinehas, Joshua, David, Solomon etc.

Mary
Mary was chosen and ordained to serve in the mystery of the Incarnation in a unique way. She was set apart and given a special position and privileges. She was given a unique relationship with God even before the Incarnation and a unique role in the salvation of mankind.

She was sovereignly chosen by the Father to bear His only begotten Son. In that role, Mary is the first person in all history to receive and accept Christ as her Saviour (Lk 1:47). We are called to enthrone the Lord in our hearts and lives-to follow her example in doing so. Early in Christian history she is called "the first of the redeemed".

Mary holds her unique position and has a "category of her own" not as a mere Virgin, but as the Virgin-Mother, parthenomitir, as the pre-chosen Mother of the Lord.

Mary was the Mother of God (Theotokos – God bearer), “the mother of my Lord” as Elizabeth put it, and the mother our Lord, who we are told “from now on will all ages call me blessed.”

At the annunciation Mary was told that “the power of the Most High will overshadow you”. The Greek word for overshadow is episkiazein, which is the same word used in ancient Greek translations of the OT to describe the cloud of God overshadowing the tabernacle at Mount Sinai (e.g. Ex 40:35 ). So Gabriel is indicating that Mary will be a new tabernacle, a new vessel of God’s holy presence, a new temple. Her womb is a sacred vessel, made sacred by the overshadowing and the presence of God himself.

Mary is the “Ark of the New Covenant” (Rev 11:19) as seen by John.

Mary is the mother of “those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus” (Rev 12:17).

There are four Marian dogmas:
Ever Virgin – Mary remained a virgin, even after bearing Jesus
Mother of God – because she is the mother of Jesus, who is God.
Immaculate Conception – Mary was preserved from the effects of original sin at the moment of her conception.
Assumption – Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul at the end of her life on earth.

We give reverence to the Saints, and special reverence to Mary as befits her position, but we do not give her the adoration (worship) that is due to God alone.
 
Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’.
This is something I did not know before. Is this a new doctrine?
 
Ever Virgin – Mary remained a virgin, even after bearing Jesus
This one I do not agree with. I believe the Catholic church bends Scripture to fit this narrative and no matter how many times I study this concept, I find too many Scripture references that refute it. I won't debate this with you as I don't feel it would be of any value but just thought I'd share it. Perhaps if you can start a thread to present all the evidence to support this dogma, that might help me understand with the Catholic church is coming from but I doubt you will change my mind.
 
Assumption – Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul at the end of her life on earth.
I'm not aware of any Scriptural support for this. It might be interesting to understand where the Catholic church gets this understanding from aside from someone's personal opinion or doctrine. I don't intend to debate this with you but I am interested in how the Catholic church comes to this conclusion.
 
Immaculate Conception – Mary was preserved from the effects of original sin at the moment of her conception.
This is one that is very grey for me. I have not found Scripture that I believe supports this dogma without stretching things a bit out on a limb. I don't intend to debate this with you but I am interested in how the Catholic church comes to this conclusion.
 
Mary was the Mother of God
This is one where I do differ. To me this dogma stretches the truth a bit. God never had a beginning and ergo, no mother. I agree she was the mother of the incarnate in human form but not God Himself. Again, I don't intend to debate this with you but I am interested in how the Catholic church comes to this conclusion.
 
WIP

OK to all 4. I'll do them one at a time in new threads though as they may generate a lot of discussion.
 
Ever Virgin – Mary remained a virgin, even after bearing Jesus

Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:19-21


  • His mother and brothers came to Him





JLB
 
This is something I did not know before. Is this a new doctrine?

The Church has been canonising Saints for centuries.
At first holy people were acclaimed Saints by the people that knew them and knew of their life and deeds. Some were martyrs.
Over time the process became centralised and more formalised.

On another forum I did a series on early English Saints (pre-conquest) with two per month; people such as Bede (7th century) and Alban (a 3rd century martyr) - both men and women (like Hilda of Whitby). These brought the faith to England or spread it during the early centuries.
 
Mother of God – because she is the mother of Jesus, who is God.

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5


Mary gave birth to the flesh and blood Man, Jesus Christ.


God is Spirit. Mary did not give birth to Spirit.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6





JLB
 
Immaculate Conception – Mary was preserved from the effects of original sin at the moment of her conception.


for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:23


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
Romans 5:12




JLB
 
Assumption – Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul at the end of her life on earth.


Mary’s body will be resurrected at His coming.



But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23



JLB
 
The Church has been canonising Saints for centuries.
At first holy people were acclaimed Saints by the people that knew them and knew of their life and deeds. Some were martyrs.
Over time the process became centralised and more formalised.

On another forum I did a series on early English Saints (pre-conquest) with two per month; people such as Bede (7th century) and Alban (a 3rd century martyr) - both men and women (like Hilda of Whitby). These brought the faith to England or spread it during the early centuries.
That's not the part that caught me by surprise. Your statement that the body of Christ are all saints is what caught me by surprise. I have never heard this in Catholic circles before.
 
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5


Mary gave birth to the flesh and blood Man, Jesus Christ.


God is Spirit. Mary did not give birth to Spirit.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6





JLB
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:23


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
Romans 5:12




JLB

Mary’s body will be resurrected at His coming.



But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23



JLB

Getting your objections in before I have even started the threads.
Obviously not worth it now all my points have so comprehensively debunked. :)
 
That's not the part that caught me by surprise. Your statement that the body of Christ are all saints is what caught me by surprise. I have never heard this in Catholic circles before.
Your surprise at that surprises me.
It's biblical so of course Catholics believe it.

As the catechism says:
946 After confessing "the holy catholic Church," the Apostles' Creed adds "the communion of saints." In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?" The communion of saints is the Church.
 
What is “purgation”?


Please explain this term.
purgation
n noun
1 purification. Ø(in Catholic doctrine) the spiritual cleansing of a soul in purgatory.

(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)

Purgatory

“early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge).”
(Online Etymology Dictionary).

Purgatory is about cleansing and purification

Catholic belief
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church para 1030)
 
Getting your objections in before I have even started the threads.
Obviously not worth it now all my points have so comprehensively debunked. :)

Im just posting what the scriptures say, and have refrained from making any comment.


I am interested in reading what you have to say.





JLB
 
purgation
n noun
1 purification. Ø(in Catholic doctrine) the spiritual cleansing of a soul in purgatory.

(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)

Purgatory

“early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge).”
(Online Etymology Dictionary).

Purgatory is about cleansing and purification

Catholic belief
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church para 1030)


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1




JLB
 
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1




JLB
I'll add purgatory onto the list of threads I have to start. But one at a time.
 
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