Unions

[Mike]

This topic can be broadened out to where ever people want to take it. But I have a bit of a dilemma, that I wonder what people think about the matter. It might vary from country to country, and I live in the U.S.

I have a good friend that works for a company who's employees are unionized. The union rejected the companies contract offer, so the company locked them out. He sent out an email to everyone he knows asking them to call a number and tell the company we think they are unfair and need to restructure the contract.

Neither I or anyone in my family has ever been in a union. My observation is that, especially in today's economic climate, unions often are unwilling to allow the companies to compete by allowing them to be competitive in their markets. People everywhere are needing to adjust their lifestyles, and companies need to adjust as well. But often it seems unions don't want to concede anything, and they prevent "the hand that feeds them" from doing what they need to do to compete and even survive.

I chose not to call, and I'm trying to collect enough information to form an informed opinion. He's my friend, but the issue is bigger than that. Would you make the call based on a friendship?

More broadly, I would say, unions have outlived their necessity, IMO. Decades ago, when companies were allowed to force very unfair working conditions on their employees, they served a very good purpose. But there are laws that protect workers (more or less) today, and it's my opinion that they're hanging on to power they assumed when it was needed, and now they're a big part of the problem. Corporations are often cast as the villains, but if they aren't allowed to be competitive, everyone loses.

What do you think about unions. From a Christian perspective, do you think there is something wrong with this arrangement? Should people be more self-reliant in their means of income?

Sorry if this strikes a nerve with some of you. I realize these are hard times for many people.

 

[jasoncran]

we have a union at my job, but we cant strike. i have mixed feelings on them, as this one tends to push pro dem voting but they do defend the workers from being raped by the employer.

i may join them so that i can try to save my retirement.

 

[VegasGeorge]

Yes, unions have outlived their usefulness and legitimate purpose. When unions came into being, the workplace was mostly unregulated, and certain employers engaged in abusive practices. Now we have regulations for safety, wage laws, workers compensation, etc. The workplace is no longer abusive, at least not in the sense that it was when unions were needed. Furthermore, unions sprang up to give workers a collective voice in bargaining with private employers. Today there are more unionized government employees than unionized private sector employees. It makes no legitimate sense to have unionized government employees. The government isn't going to be an unfair or abusive employer. So yes, I agree that unions are unnecessary and wasteful in today's marketplace.

 

[Nick]

Australia used to be heavily unionised in the 60's and 70's. This coincided with the feminist movement. Around this time, the union movement wanted to get better conditions for all and equal pay rates for women.

Today in Australia, unions are far less prominant, as generally equal pay for equal work for women and minorities has been generally achieved. What the unions today are more focused on is discrimination conflict resolution, that is based more on race than anything else. Conditions are much better now.

I think unions should definatley be around, and if they work properly, they can get a better workplace with their superious bargaining power without impending on the business's productivity and competitivenesss too much. However, many uinons seem to go too far. I also think some industries due to their nature are more heavily unionised than others.

But the bottom line is: do we want competitive business, or do we want more of a safe, equitable and therefore more happy and productive workplace? I think the latter is the obvious answer. We just must work out a way to have that the case without impacting on the free market as much as possible.

 

[jasoncran]

the problem is with todays unions, its a business, not a bunch of workers working together for a common goal. the union i may join is the teamsters #238 they are out of miami

 

[Nick]

Hey, I'm not saying the unions are innocent. Some of them don't play nice either. But I don't think we should be getting rid of them.

 

[jasoncran]

Hey, I'm not saying the unions are innocent. Some of them don't play nice either. But I don't think we should be getting rid of them.

not all unions are like that, but theres not many that dont do that.

for instance, the auto union fought for this rate of pay,a forklight operator $33.00/hr ( after a few years)
nick, a 10 yrd old can do that. i can service and operate a fork lift, and make less than half that.

is that sustenable? no.

the amount of pay for the auto workers in the same areas outside is quite higher, personally if the companies can afford that, yes, but when we taxpayers must bail them out, then it becomes an issue.

this last round isnt the first time, and yes jeff has told me that recent problems with gm is mainly due to another issue, but in the past the unions were the problem.

 

[Nick]

Hey, I'm not saying the unions are innocent. Some of them don't play nice either. But I don't think we should be getting rid of them.

not all unions are like that, but theres not many that dont do that.

for instance, the auto union fought for this rate of pay,a forklight operator $33.00/hr ( after a few years)
nick, a 10 yrd old can do that. i can service and operate a fork lift, and make less than half that.

is that sustenable? no.

the amount of pay for the auto workers in the same areas outside is quite higher, personally if the companies can afford that, yes, but when we taxpayers must bail them out, then it becomes an issue.

this last round isnt the first time, and yes jeff has told me that recent problems with gm is mainly due to another issue, but in the past the unions were the problem.

Yeah, that is a bit over the top.

But the Teacher's Union over here...most teachers get paid per year between $52,000 and $70,000. Many studies I believe have concluded that teachers are worth over $100,000. The conditions aren't great either. And the job they do is very important. The Teacher's Union is trying to improve things. Do you think the union's fight in this case is unreasonable? Nothing will get done without the unions in this case.

 

[jasoncran]

some say that the teachers union is the enemy of proper education.

i do. but i aslo know that with the goverment schools it not that simple. and the teachers union mainly cares only about the teachers. which is a no brainer. but its hard to call someone educated upon graduation when they dont know the basics, and must go to a remedial colllege course when the enter the local community college.

that i have seen first hand, and to be fair that isnt all the schools fault as as society seems not to value hard work nor education in general. of course some parents see the school system as baby sitters.

is that in american dollars?

 

[Mike]

But the bottom line is: do we want competitive business, or do we want more of a safe, equitable and therefore more happy and productive workplace? I think the latter is the obvious answer.

I don't think the latter is the obvious answer, because in most cases, they aren't mutually exclusive. If a corporation is allowed to be competitive, there will likely be more job security. I know there are corps that will mistreat their employees, but for the most part, they have laws that protect them. Most companies where I live are "at will". They have the right to let us go, just as we have the right to quit. They do need to be socially responsible, and most are.

I would say your former statement is more (but not completely) obvious. Would you rather have a job that you're not completely happy at than no job at all in today's economy? Ideally you want symmetry between employer and employees, and you can choose to move on if you find another option. That's the free market!

I would say a major reason American auto companies have struggled so much is that the unions push back whenever the Big Three have tried to make reasonable adjustments. The autoworkers union got very fat and happy over the decades and refuse to give concessions where it is obviously unreasonable to do so from an uninvolved perspective.

 

[Mike]

But the Teacher's Union over here...most teachers get paid per year between $52,000 and $70,000. Many studies I believe have concluded that teachers are worth over $100,000. The conditions aren't great either. And the job they do is very important. The Teacher's Union is trying to improve things. Do you think the union's fight in this case is unreasonable? Nothing will get done without the unions in this case.

Without a union demanding wages, the free market drives wages by supply and demand. As with anyone, they should only make what the market will allow them to make, but unions throw this out of whack. So actually, they are "worth" whatever the market demands that they make. In teacher's cases, this is impacted by millages and tax revenue. In Michigan, our teachers unions are so strong, they won't allow school districts to reduce unnecessary workforce. As more and more people choose to take their kids out of public schools due to poor quality and commitment from teachers, they need less and less people to serve as teachers. Their unions make it nearly impossible to dismiss a teacher who is not doing his/her job. Having gone through the public system myself, I saw some great teachers but unfortunately too many who plodded along in the status quo. They were emotionally checked out, and did the bare minimum (sometimes even less than that).

 

[stovebolts]

Just a short blip, but when I was in the Union back in Wa. state, we were the best of the best and our work reflected that superiority as did our pay.

When I moved to Mi. my eyes were opened to Union abuse as the tables had turned. Basically it was, "Can't make it in the trades cause your work ethics and quality of work sucks, join the Union." because that was the only place you could get away with shoddy work and unethical conduct.

Ohhh I could tell stories about the Automotive Union, and I could tell stories about the Teamsters and I could certainly tell stories about the Carpenter Union here in Mi and it's all the same because their abused to the companies they work for are covered in the rhetoric and bureaucratic fine print that allowed such blatant abuses (btw, it's reduced considerable now since Mi. economic state went down the drain).

But anyway, my Dad who was Union the majority of his life once told me that if a company treats you fairly, there isn't a need for a Union and what he said was true, because I've worked for some pretty great companies who treated you right, and paid you well above union wages without the overhead of the Union.

So Mike, I suppose you should do your homework and find out what the issue is all about and make up your mind if it's an issue you want to side with your friend on by making a call from him, or perhaps this is an oportunity to really be a friend to this guy and say,"hey, I know we're talking about your lively hood here, but you need to understand this..." and be up front with him.

Good luck Mike.

 

[Vic C.]

I don't have much of an issue with private unions as I do with public unions. Civil service jobs come with their own pay scales, benefit structures, etc. Therefore, public service jobs, government jobs, etc. and especially teachers don't really need unions. It's rather redundant and a waste of tax payers money.

 

[jasoncran]

I don't have much of an issue with private unions as I do with public unions. Civil service jobs come with their own pay scales, benefit structures, etc. Therefore, public service jobs, government jobs, etc. and especially teachers don't really need unions. It's rather redundant and a waste of tax payers money.

to a degree i agree, but with the way its been going for the city i work in times past and now. we need one.

 

[Pard]

Unions should be local and specific to each company, if you even have one. All union members, including admin. should be workers at the company the union is for. Union dues should not exist, and they would not if all union admin. were workers in the company. Unions should have NO connection tot he government, no lobbies, no nothing.

These GIANT unions are ridiculous.

 

[jasoncran]

Unions should be local and specific to each company, if you even have one. All union members, including admin. should be workers at the company the union is for. Union dues should not exist, and they would not if all union admin. were workers in the company. Unions should have NO connection tot he government, no lobbies, no nothing.

These GIANT unions are ridiculous.

the problem with that is the trades, ie the uaw, the communication operators(my mom is one), and also the electrical union. the latter does a lot for the training of the lineman. as lineman will go to any state and repair lines where needed in a disaster.

in florida pike electric from ct, pard's state, came down to assist in line repair after the 04,05 hurricanes.

 

[Nick]

But the Teacher's Union over here...most teachers get paid per year between $52,000 and $70,000. Many studies I believe have concluded that teachers are worth over $100,000. The conditions aren't great either. And the job they do is very important. The Teacher's Union is trying to improve things. Do you think the union's fight in this case is unreasonable? Nothing will get done without the unions in this case.

Without a union demanding wages, the free market drives wages by supply and demand. As with anyone, they should only make what the market will allow them to make, but unions throw this out of whack. So actually, they are "worth" whatever the market demands that they make. In teacher's cases, this is impacted by millages and tax revenue. In Michigan, our teachers unions are so strong, they won't allow school districts to reduce unnecessary workforce. As more and more people choose to take their kids out of public schools due to poor quality and commitment from teachers, they need less and less people to serve as teachers. Their unions make it nearly impossible to dismiss a teacher who is not doing his/her job. Having gone through the public system myself, I saw some great teachers but unfortunately too many who plodded along in the status quo. They were emotionally checked out, and did the bare minimum (sometimes even less than that).

Private teachers get paid better than public sector ones, which are the one's I'm talking about. If the teachers are undervalued, as Jason said, then the free market does not appreciate the job that they do. This could be called market failure. But the teachers I'm talking about are not in the market.

 

[Pard]

Unions should be local and specific to each company, if you even have one. All union members, including admin. should be workers at the company the union is for. Union dues should not exist, and they would not if all union admin. were workers in the company. Unions should have NO connection tot he government, no lobbies, no nothing.

These GIANT unions are ridiculous.

the problem with that is the trades, ie the uaw, the communication operators(my mom is one), and also the electrical union. the latter does a lot for the training of the lineman. as lineman will go to any state and repair lines where needed in a disaster.

in florida pike electric from ct, pard's state, came down to assist in line repair after the 04,05 hurricanes.

Oh ya? CL+P came down? Hmm, that's an interesting point. I suppose unions could have some sort of connectivity? Though, I am sure there is a way to allow for that still.

 

[jasoncran]

actually nick its the reverse the private in america get paid way less. but they do it for the love as the kids get kicked out of the private schools if the parents neither care or if the child is too troublesome.

 

[jasoncran]

keep in mind the pike electric was rembursed by the local electrical suppliers either these in my area
the fpl group, fort pierce utility authority and my city.