Unique, Not Only-Begotten
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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UNBIBLICAL and. HERESY is nothing to do with name calling, but for beliefs that are most certainly not in the Word of God
Really?
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? (Num. 23:19)
The deity of Jesus isn't a matter of not "understanding exactly how Jesus' relationship with his Father works," but of not understanding the nature of Christ as the Bible reveals him. He is the central figure of Scripture, to whom the law points, in whose name alone we have salvation, who created all things and in whom all things are held together, and to whom every knee in creation will one day bow. It stands to reason, then, that we cannot just believe he is whoever or whatever we want him to be, but that we must believe he is who he said he is.
John 1:12 says that "to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" (ESV). To "believe in [on] his name," is to believe in "the sum of the qualities which mark the nature or character of [Jesus] . . . to accept as the the revelation contained in [Jesus Christ the Son of God]" (M. R. Vincent, Word Studies in the NT). Jesus repeats this in John 3:18. This is also what is meant by "name" in Matt 28:19, the sum total of the divine being--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Mormons believe Jesus is the literal spirit child of the Father and his celestial wife. JWs believe that Jesus was the archangel Michael who came to earth and then returned to being Michael. Others believe Jesus is only human. But all those things cannot be true (and none of them are), yet each thinks they have the true Christ. Again, it stands to reason that we cannot have such conflicting notions and still believe that all who believe those things will be saved, even though all will say they believe Jesus is the Son of God.
2Co 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. (ESV)
Notice that Paul is pointing out errors and that one can actually believe in a different Jesus.
Also, to either accept or not accept that Jesus is God is also a denial of the nature of God as revealed in Scripture. Would you agree that this is included in Jesus's words that we are to "worship God in spirit and in truth"? If our conception of God is not true, can we really worship him in truth? What God would we then be worshipping if it isn't the God of the Bible?
We also see in Romans 10:9-13 that Paul equates "calling on the name of Yahweh" with confessing "Jesus is Lord." So, it very much seems to me that who we believe Jesus to be is affects our salvation.
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Hi Free
so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Even Peter writes:
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!
Honestly, I don't see anything in your response to me that supports the 'Jesus is God' understanding.
God bless,
Ted
I don't think I have any problem with any of that. I believe that I do understand the nature of Jesus as the Scriptures reveal him. I agree that, besides God Himself, he is the central figure of Scripture, to whom the law points and in whose name alone we have salvation. That all things in this created realm were created through him. That one day every knee will bow to declare Jesus as Lord, I have not disagreement. I have no problem with believing he is who he said he is.
I'm not in agreement with most of the Mormon and JW's doctrine and theological understandings.
Got no argument with me on anything that Paul teaches us through his writings on the subject. However, I haven't found in any of Paul's writings any clear proclamation that Jesus is God. Have you got anything on that? In fact, Paul generally writes that Jesus has a God.
so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Even Peter writes:
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!
I'm guessing that somewhere in that sentence you see Paul writing to the Romans that Jesus is God. As far as calling on the name of Jesus or confessing Jesus is Lord...got no problem.
Honestly, I don't see anything in your response to me that supports the 'Jesus is God' understanding.
God bless,
Ted
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Hi again Free
In fact, I am in full agreement with Paul. Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
And please, I am not writing this to weaken anyone's faith. As I've said, although you seem to deny, this understanding that Jesus is God doesn't really seem to be anything that our salvation rests upon. I don't read, For all who have received him and agree that he is God...will be saved.
I mean if Paul wants to assure that we understand that Jesus is God, it would seem to me that he'd rather write: Praise be the God and Father who is our Lord, Jesus Christ.
God bless,
Ted
In fact, I am in full agreement with Paul. Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
And please, I am not writing this to weaken anyone's faith. As I've said, although you seem to deny, this understanding that Jesus is God doesn't really seem to be anything that our salvation rests upon. I don't read, For all who have received him and agree that he is God...will be saved.
I mean if Paul wants to assure that we understand that Jesus is God, it would seem to me that he'd rather write: Praise be the God and Father who is our Lord, Jesus Christ.
God bless,
Ted
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Personality is not the same as a person of flesh and blood. God the father was not crucified, buried and resurrected, God the Son was, this much I have fully grasped.
Agreed. The answer revealed by God in heaven about who Jesus is is that he is the Son of God and the Messiah (Matt 16:13-20). These particular points about who he is are essential. For God so loved the word He (God) sent His only Son (Jesus). (John 3:16)
Since we are on this forum, I would like to take just a moment to explain how others seem come to a different understanding of this outside of the plain and intuitive reading of the scripture. From what I have seen some say, since Jesus is the Son of God then that is equal to being God the Son. The way the thinking seems to work is that since the Father is God and Jesus His Son then that means Jesus is a man god or possibly a demigod.
Now, the problem I see with this line of thinking is that Jesus plainly taught us that we must be born again (John 3). Not literally as Nicodemus seemed to think, but born again from above; spiritual rebirth in the most general sense. Now here comes the adoption theology into play. They will sometimes say we become God's children by adoption because this is necessary for the "Jesus the man god" theology to work. However, spiritual rebirth refers to being offspring of God, a brother or sister to Jesus in that case. Since this is so then we ourselves cannot become God ourselves in this process, but rather children, i.e., one of the sons of God like Jesus, but not the definitive Son of God as is the case of God's firstborn.
Acts 17
29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination.
And, yet, Paul equates confessing Jesus is Lord with calling on the name of the Lord [YHWH]. Note that "Lord" is Kurios in the Greek and that translates YHWH in the Septuagint and OT references in the NT. It doesn't always mean Yahweh, of course, but it must not be overlooked, especially in passages such as Rom 10:9-13.
Not at all! To say "Praise be the God and Father who is our Lord, Jesus Christ," is the heresy of Modalism and Oneness based on a unitarian view of God. Jesus is God but he is not the Father; not ever. Paul says many things that indicate Jesus is deity in the same way the Father is, but that he isn't the Father, all the while upholding the foundation of monotheism. Hence why the doctrine of the Trinity makes the most sense of the entire biblical witness.
