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miamited said:
Hi Free
That's correct. Because I don't see the 'fact' that Jesus has the nature of God to mean that Jesus is God. Actually every believer, as he grows in knowledge and faith in the one true and living God, should show others the nature of God by their words and deeds. I believe that's exactly what Paul was referring to when he says that Jesus being in very nature God.
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There is a large disconnect in what is meant by "nature." When discussing the nature of God in theology, we are talking about the nature of being, that is, what makes God, God. Yes, there are his communicable attributes, which he shares with us, such as his love, justice, and righteousness, and we are to show those to the world. But there is much more to it than that. There are his incommunicable attributes, which he does not share with his creatures--he is a necessary being (he cannot not exist), he is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, unchangeable, etc.

So, Jesus being in very nature God means that he is God in the all the same ways that the Father is God. It means that he shares the same indivisible substance that is God. With the Trinity and God's self-existence, it means that all three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--are each truly God, coequal, coeternal, and consubstantial, yet they remain distinct. And still, there is only one being, one substance, that is God.

miamited said:
See, that's the thing I'm not in agreement with. Donald Trump has the nature of Satan, but that doesn't make him Satan. Sorry to bring politics into the discussion, but it really is, I believe, a good example of what this 'being in nature God' means.

So, for you, if a son is born of a man with the nature of a murdering rapist, his son will also be so? Ummmm, ok if you say so. Honestly, sometimes I'm not sure that you think through your ideas. But it happens to all of us from time to time. I've been there.
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No, to all of this. You are using nature in a very different sense that isn't what is meant in theological discussion about God. By a son being of the same nature as his father means that if the father is human, so also is his son; it cannot be otherwise. If the father is a pig, the son will be a pig.

miamited said:
Yes, well there is also a separation of Jesus and God in heaven. According to the Scriptures, Jesus was raised to the right hand of God. Even at the throne of God in heaven we read that John looked and behold he saw a lamb who had been slain. That' lamb is Jesus.
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Of course, but that is post incarnation. This is why theologians talk about the ontological Trinity--God has he existed prior to all creation--and the economic Trinity--the role of each person in the Trinity within creation, salvation, and redemption.

As James R. White states, "difference in function does not indicate inferiority of nature." The Son willingly subjected himself to the Father for the purposes of salvation and redemption, but that does not make him less God than the Father. But, when we talk about the ontological Trinity, it means that there never was a time when all three persons of the Trinity didn't coexist. So, Jesus being both God and man means he has both divine nature and human nature, and divine nature cannot cease being divine. That is, he was truly God before the incarnation, and he remained truly God after the incarnation.

miamited said:
Well, I don't know about you, but I've read somewhere in the Scriptures that God cannot die. Maybe God's word isn't all true after all, eh?
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I have no idea why I have to repeat this so many times, when only once should suffice: Jesus is both man and God. God cannot die but humans can, and do.

miamited said:
Now, you want to know what makes Jesus like God? The Holy Spirit! It is, as Jesus said in his prayer to his Father before his sacrifice. That they be one as he and the Father are one by the Spirit. As I understand the Scriptures, it is the Holy Spirit that makes God and Jesus one and it is that same Spirit that also makes us one with Jesus, and thus one with God. It is the Spirit my friend.
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Chapter and verse, please.
 
miamited said:
Hi Free

John 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—

Now, Paul uses the word 'nature' to describe this oneness of God and Jesus.

BTW, just curious, but what's your understanding of the 'glory' that Jesus gave his followers? The glory that Jesus says he got from the Father and has also given this same glory to his disciples.
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It is not speaking of the divine nature, such as in John 10:30, since no creature can become divine in nature. It could be the power to do miracles, to know and speak the truth, but likely mainly to be in union with the Son and the Father. It is to be in union of purpose and plan for the salvation of humans and redemption of creation. Believers are called to participate in God's plans on earth, are we not? Didn't Jesus say that we are to abide in him, because apart from him we can do nothing?
 
Hi Free
So, let's agree that we don't share the same understanding of the word 'nature' that is translated in Paul's writings about the subject. You say that it makes Jesus God and I say that it makes Jesus like God, but not God.
Free said:
I have no idea why I have to repeat this so many times, when only once should suffice: Jesus is both man and God. God cannot die but humans can, and do.
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I too, have no idea why you feel the need to repeat that claim over and over again.
Free said:
So, Jesus being in very nature God means that he is God in the all the same ways that the Father is God.
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So that son and father that I exampled for you when you said that all sons share the nature of their fathers means that the son in my example is a murderer and rapist, too?

Got it!

And hey, if it makes you feel any better, I'll ask you not to repeat your claim that you don't know why you're repeating.

You ask, "Didn't Jesus say that we are to abide in him, because apart from him we can do nothing?"

Yes he did.

God bless,
Ted
 
Hi Free
Free said:
But, when we talk about the ontological Trinity, it means that there never was a time when all three persons of the Trinity didn't coexist.
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You'll get no argument from me on that. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus was there when God was creating this realm and clearly the Spirit was there when God was creating this realm. He's the one that was hovering over the waters on the earth.

God bless,
Ted
 
miamited said:
Hi Free
So, let's agree that we don't share the same understanding of the word 'nature' that is translated in Paul's writings about the subject. You say that it makes Jesus God and I say that it makes Jesus like God, but not God.
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The only meaning that it can be is that Jesus is God. To believe that Jesus is “God like, but not God,” is in the territory of polytheism and Gnosticism, not Christianity. Can you provide a verse where Jesus is said to be “God like,” or where anyone can be “God like” but not be God?

miamited said:
I too, have no idea why you feel the need to repeat that claim over and over again.
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Because I think I already said it twice in response to the same argument from you, yet you repeated it again. If there is something you don’t understand about Jesus being both God and man and that only humans die, let me know.

miamited said:
So that son and father that I exampled for you when you said that all sons share the nature of their fathers means that the son in my example is a murderer and rapist, too?
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Again, no. Being a sinner is intrinsic to human nature, but not specifically being a murderer and rapist. I am clearly talking about those things that make humans, human, and not pigs or donkeys.

There are things that make God, God, and the Son shares in all those things.

miamited said:
You ask, "Didn't Jesus say that we are to abide in him, because apart from him we can do nothing?"

Yes he did.
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That’s, in part, what he means by believers being one.

miamited said:
Hi Free
You'll get no argument from me on that. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus was there when God was creating this realm and clearly the Spirit was there when God was creating this realm. He's the one that was hovering over the waters on the earth.
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Except that I am getting argument from you and you are again contradicting previous claims you have made. Your position is not consistent.
 
Hi Free,

Ok, well, as I've said, I don't find that this understanding that Jesus is God is an issue of salvation. So, we'll just agree to disagree on this. And I apologize for not being consistent, although I honestly think I have been. But you disagree. Believe it or not, that's ok with me. We'll find out when we get there.

God bless,
Ted
 
miamited said:
Hi Free,

Ok, well, as I've said, I don't find that this understanding that Jesus is God is an issue of salvation.
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You may not, but I do, and so does historic, orthodox Christianity. It is absolutely central. If you get the wrong Jesus, you get the wrong Father, you get the wrong God.

miamited said:
So, we'll just agree to disagree on this. And I apologize for not being consistent, although I honestly think I have been. But you disagree. Believe it or not, that's ok with me. We'll find out when we get there.
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For one of us it will be too late.
 
Hi Free
Well that's a fairly sweeping statement that if we don't understand exactly how Jesus' relationship with his Father works, we've got the wrong God. Got any evidence that any of that is true?

God bless,
Ted
 
SolaScriptura said:
Says nothing

Do you believe that the Godhead is One which consists of Three distinct equal Persons Father Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, Who are also coessential and coeternal
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This is a loaded question, and it doesn't show why and how the Godhead matters to us.
 
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Carry_Your_Name said:
This is a loaded question, and it doesn't show why and how the Godhead matters to us.
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The Term "Godhead" is from Romans 1:20, where the Greek , "theiotēs" can either mean "Divine Nature", or "Godhead". This simply means, that the Three Distinct Persons, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and equally GOD, in the One Divine Nature, which they share and are not separate. 1x1x1=1

This is the only way to understand the Biblical God from what the Bible tells us
 
SolaScriptura said:
The Term "Godhead" is from Romans 1:20, where the Greek , "theiotēs" can either mean "Divine Nature", or "Godhead". This simply means, that the Three Distinct Persons, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and equally GOD, in the One Divine Nature, which they share and are not separate. 1x1x1=1

This is the only way to understand the Biblical God from what the Bible tells us
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No. The Godhead is one God manifested simultaneously as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who are distinct, coessential and coeternal. God the Father is not a person, God the Son is.
 
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