Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[Carry_Your_Name]

That may well be all that they are arguing, but the title says: unique NOT only begotten.

Title may be deceiving, it may be a clickbait, you gotta read the contents and reach your own conclusion.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Thanks Ted. Civility makes for good conversation.

Here's my understanding of salvation:

God Father
draws everyone to Himself.
Those that choose to say Yes, the Father will give to Jesus.
John 6:44 (?)

God Son
Jesus takes everyone and denies no one.
He is the actual Savior that died for us.
He will cast out no one.


God The Holy Spirit,
as you said, will guide us, comfort us and be our paraclete.

And here's my understanding: God the Son is like a bridge across a bottomless chasm of sin and death, on one side is God the Father, on the other side is us and God the Holy Spirit who points to God the Son.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yet most everyone here disagrees with your denial of the preexistence of the Son as a being as well as the nature found in Him. (all the fullness of God the Father) We have given scripture over and over to support such beliefs and you rejected all of them from John, Hebrews, Paul. Jesus has been shown to be the Fathers Son and that before the world began which God brought into existence through Him. You deny His Supremacy in regard to the creation and His preexistence before the creation. Those are Christian beliefs based off what the NT states of Him therefore the conclusion is you have another teacher which you have chosen to follow and its one not from above.

You make this statement after given several scriptures from John, Hebrews, Paul that state otherwise.
I do believe this about My Lord.
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful.
Christ Jesus States before being in that body- The Word became flesh.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.

No we are discussing His Son -Is there anybody here who doesn't believe the Father is God?

Who ascended except the one who descended.
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.
Jesus-“Does this offend you? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! This is given in regard to His testimony about the living bread which came down from Heaven.

Yes I am The Spirit of God.

Everybody knows He is called God in scripture but not everyone believes it.
I know this understanding from above -Jesus is all that the Father is. And thats not revelation as you will find that teaching in the NT.

Jesus came down from heaven as He is a He. The life that appeared and was testified to as that same and still eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning.

The Father calls Jesus God it is therefore lawful to refer to His Son as God. They are ONE.

And I have shown the distinction made by that same Apostle between those who have received the gift of the Spirit vs the Son in whom all the fullness of the Father was pleased to dwell.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness.

The meaning is clear to me -"return to me the glory I had with you before the world began"
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

In regard to your outreach agenda I have declined to join you in your unbelief. I tell you I know My Lord and who He was before the world began and so He has made me a rock in that and you nor anyone can ever change that outlook so if that's your purpose you are wasting your time.

Those who are born of God have been given the right to be called the children of God. All those the Father gives Jesus will come to Him and it is His Fathers will that HE raise them up on the last day.

Yes and?

Jesus is the true vine that norishes the branches found in Him and He does have life in Himself. The Fathers Deity without limit. A Son who is called Mighty God and is the imprint of Gods very being. Does this offend you?



The context was given. He is before all things. The firstborn of all creation and all those things God brought into existence in, through, by and for Him. Things on earth and things in heaven. Visible and invisible. He has the Supremacy in regard to the creation, the church and the resurrection.

And One Lord Jesus Christ "through whom" all things came.

Put to death in the flesh but not the spirit. Man has been appointed "once" to die. Jesus suffered that death.
Man can kill the body but only God can kill the soul.
Likewise those that live by believing in Him never die.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

I believe ALL that is written of Him. I don't just post, "the man Jesus Christ" and then ignore all else that is written about the one who came down from heaven from the Fathers presence as the only such eyewitness of His Majesty.

I haven given you many scriptures as have others but you reject them all. Let them speak to you.

Romans 8 does not negate the testimony about the Son who was before the world began. One in whom all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. The only such Son of the Father. God provided that lamb out of His love for the world.

Great post !
:nod

 

[GodsGrace]

And here's my understanding: God the Son is like a bridge across a bottomless chasm of sin and death, on one side is God the Father, on the other side is us and God the Holy Spirit who points to God the Son.

There are many tracts with the above shown in an image.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There are many tracts with the above shown in an image.


View attachment 15971

Yeah, thanks for the illustration, this is exactly what I have in mind. I always thought that the triangle one is misleading.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, thanks for the illustration, this is exactly what I have in mind. I always thought that the triangle one is misleading.

Which triangle one?
This:

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Which triangle one?
This:


View attachment 15972

Yes, of course. Which else could it be?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, of course. Which else could it be?

It's explaining two totally different things Carry.

The Bridge is the story of salvation.

The Triangle is the story of the Trinity.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It's explaining two totally different things Carry.

The Bridge is the story of salvation.

The Triangle is the story of the Trinity.

I don’t think so. The bridge is better illustration of the godhead, it accurately demonstrates the roles of the three and the relationships between them. The triangle is rather misleading, there’s no story there, and from it you’ve got heresies of tritheism (three gods) and modalism (three modes of god).

 

[SolaScriptura]

I don’t think so. The bridge is better illustration of the godhead, it accurately demonstrates the roles of the three and the relationships between them. The triangle is rather misleading, there’s no story there, and from it you’ve got heresies of tritheism (three gods) and modalism (three modes of god).

Hi can a new thread be started for this as it is not the OP

 

[miamited]

Hi SolaScriptura

I tend to agree. But that happens pretty regularly on such discussion boards. However, you're right. The OP's position was whether or not the word translated as 'only begotten', isn't better translated as 'unique'. Now we're discussing whether Jesus is God.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hi can a new thread be started for this as it is not the OP

Alright, but just to be clear, I believe in the Trinity as much as you do, just from a different perspective.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Alright, but just to be clear, I believe in the Trinity as much as you do, just from a different perspective.

What perspective?

 

[Free]

Hi Free,

Yes, but then you have to read vs. 9

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,

God exalted His Son to the highest place. God did that.

Context is king. Paul has already clearly stated in verse 6 that Jesus was in the form of God, which is to say that he is God in nature, just as taking the form of a human means he took on (added) human nature. So, in no way can verse 9 contradict that.

Not to mention that verse 7 says that Jesus "emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." Jesus did that. The whole passage is, of course, about Christ's humility, and that we should have that same mind. There can be no greater example of humiliation than the Son of God, being God in nature, leaving his position and taking on the form of one of his creatures for their salvation.

What verse 9 is referring to is Christ’s exaltation in the eyes of humans, so that people will recognize his supremacy and one day every knee in creation will bow to him. It is a restoration of his former position as God and the glory that he had with the Father prior to his incarnation.

God raised Jesus from the dead. God did that.

Just God? I gave two verses where Jesus said he was going to raise himself. Those form part of the context, so why didn't you address those?

God gave Jesus the very words that he spoke to us. God did that.

Of course.

Jesus is God's one and only begotten Son. That's how God refers to Jesus.

Yes, which the doctrine of the Trinity fully agrees with.

God is Jesus' Father, that's how Jesus refers to Him. I'm sticking with that.

And that is in full agreement with the Trinity.

 

[Free]

Hi Free
That may be the only thing it can mean to you, and I'm ok with that if it is your understanding.

It is not merely "my understanding," it is the historic, orthodox understanding that is central to the faith. The Son is of the same nature as the Father, that is what numerous passages tell us, such as John 1:1-18, Phil 2:5-8, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:10-12.

Do you know of a son that is of a different nature than his father? If so, I would like to hear it.

But no, we are all striving for the nature of God, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus' prayer to God was that we (you and I) be one with him as he is one with the Father. Jesus seems to think that we're going to be just like him and just like God, in our nature.

No, that is not what that means. Jesus and the Father are one in nature (John 10:30), but Jesus was praying for the unity of believers in John 17:11, 22-23. Look at the contexts.

 

[miamited]

Hi Free

which is to say that he is God in nature,

Yes, I've already agreed on that point. When we look at Jesus, we see what God is like. He holds the same nature as his Father. Which is often true of many father and son relationships, even among us human beans. My point in that post was to point out that it was 'God' who exalted His Son. And it was God who gave him the name that is above all names. That there is, in this very passage some sort of separation between 'who' God is and 'who' Jesus is. That's all.

Now, I freely admit that our understanding of the exact physical relationship that exists between God and Jesus is difficult for us to understand. I admit that. But I find quite a bit of evidence that Jesus is not God and God is not Jesus. They are two separate entities of the trinity of 'who' God is.

I believe that when Jesus said to Phillip that if he had seen him (Jesus) then he had seen God, that Jesus meant that to be a spiritual sameness. That Jesus had spent over 3 years walking daily with his disciples and had done his best to represent 'who' God is through his words and actions. Not his physical being.

Not to mention that verse 7 says that Jesus "emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."

Yes, Jesus, the second person of the trinity, emptied himself of all of the glory that he had at the right hand of the Father, and humbled himself to death. He died! God cannot die. God specifically states that about Himself in His word. Jesus died. How can we proclaim to people that God died? When we declare that Jesus is God, for me, that brings up a contradiction of terms.

Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37 - God the Father raised Jesus. 1 Cor. 6:14 Romans 8:11
1 Peter 1:21


Ephesians 1:20

Ephesians 1:17 tells us that our God is also Jesus' God. As does 2 Cor. 4:14 as does Romans 6:4

You've got 2. I've listed about 20 here that confirm that God raised His Son from the grave. And it is actually for God's purpose to show that. Because it is a realization to us that God can do for us what He has proclaimed that He will do, for those who place their faith in His Son. Jesus didn't have to be a spectacle raised from the dead. He could have just died and gone back to being in heaven with the Father. None of us having any evidence, other than God's word to depend on that He will keep His promise to us. Everything would still be true about salvation. But we wouldn't have the physical form of a human being who was righteous in His Father's sight being raised up to life and presenting himself before us. Personally, I see the resurrection of Jesus to then walk again among us and not just go immediately to be with God, as the evidence that God has given us that He will do for us, exactly what He has done for His righteous son.

The Son is of the same nature as the Father, that is what numerous passages tell us, such as John 1:1-18, Phil 2:5-8, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:10-12.

Again, please! That is not my argument! I have fully agreed that Jesus is the same nature as the Father and I know that Jesus prayed to the Father that we would be just like him in our nature with the Father through the guiding of the indwelling Holy Spirit that God has given us as our deposit guaranteeing our coming redemption.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Free

So again I proclaim that Jesus is God's Son and God is Jesus' Father. That's what God has said and that's what Jesus has said about their relationship and I'm down with that.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Free]

Hi Free
Yes, I've already agreed on that point.

You quoted: "which is to say that he is God in nature."

But down below you say that "But I find quite a bit of evidence that Jesus is not God."

Your second statement contradicts the first. If Jesus is God in nature, then by definition he is God. Only God is God in nature, no one else is or ever will be; that is absolutely impossible. The nature of God includes the fact that he is a necessary being, that he cannot not exist. If the Father cannot not exist, and the Son is the same nature as the Father, it necessarily follows that the Son cannot not exist. That is, there has never been a time when the Son did not exist.

When we look at Jesus, we see what God is like. He holds the same nature as his Father. Which is often true of many father and son relationships, even among us human beans.

I think that it is true of all father and son relationships.

My point in that post was to point out that it was 'God' who exalted His Son. And it was God who gave him the name that is above all names. That there is, in this very passage some sort of separation between 'who' God is and 'who' Jesus is. That's all.

There is a separation of Jesus as the Son of God in human flesh, willfully putting himself into subjection to the Father for the purposes of the salvation of humans and redemption of creation, but not a separation in regards to the Son's existence as God.

Now, I freely admit that our understanding of the exact physical relationship that exists between God and Jesus is difficult for us to understand. I admit that. But I find quite a bit of evidence that Jesus is not God and God is not Jesus. They are two separate entities of the trinity of 'who' God is.

I have not claimed, nor ever claimed, that God is Jesus. In fact, many times previously I have argued against that, as that is the error of Modalism and Oneness theology. Jesus is truly God, but God isn't Jesus. That is what John 1:1 and Phil 2:6 show us.

I believe that when Jesus said to Phillip that if he had seen him (Jesus) then he had seen God, that Jesus meant that to be a spiritual sameness. That Jesus had spent over 3 years walking daily with his disciples and had done his best to represent 'who' God is through his words and actions. Not his physical being.

I agree. It certainly has nothing to do with his physical being. The Father was seen in his works and his love for others, among other things.

Yes, Jesus, the second person of the trinity, emptied himself of all of the glory that he had at the right hand of the Father, and humbled himself to death. He died! God cannot die. God specifically states that about Himself in His word. Jesus died. How can we proclaim to people that God died? When we declare that Jesus is God, for me, that brings up a contradiction of terms.

But you are once again contradicting yourself. You say that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, but then argue that Jesus cannot be God because he died. If Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, then it necessarily follows that he is truly God. If he isn't God, he cannot be a part of the Trinity.

And, again, yes, Jesus died, but Jesus was both truly God and truly man. God cannot die but obviously humans can, and do.

Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37 - God the Father raised Jesus. 1 Cor. 6:14 Romans 8:11
1 Peter 1:21


Ephesians 1:20

Ephesians 1:17 tells us that our God is also Jesus' God. As does 2 Cor. 4:14 as does Romans 6:4

You've got 2. I've listed about 20 here that confirm that God raised His Son from the grave.

Numbers are irrelevant; theology and coming to a correct understanding is not a numbers game. You're making Scripture contradict itself. That both the Father and Jesus are said to have raised Jesus from the dead is why only the Trinity makes sense. Every relevant verse and passage has to be taken into account and made sense of together, without any verse(s) being made to contradict the others.

And it is actually for God's purpose to show that. Because it is a realization to us that God can do for us what He has proclaimed that He will do, for those who place their faith in His Son. Jesus didn't have to be a spectacle raised from the dead. He could have just died and gone back to being in heaven with the Father. None of us having any evidence, other than God's word to depend on that He will keep His promise to us. Everything would still be true about salvation.

I don't think that would have been the case. He had to be physically raised in order to defeat death (Rom 6:9; 2 Tim 1:10) and the effects of sin from the Fall. Without his physical resurrection, there would be no justification, no salvation (Rom 4:25; 6:4; 10:9).

But we wouldn't have the physical form of a human being who was righteous in His Father's sight being raised up to life and presenting himself before us. Personally, I see the resurrection of Jesus to then walk again among us and not just go immediately to be with God, as the evidence that God has given us that He will do for us, exactly what He has done for His righteous son.

That is one of several reasons for making his physical resurrection known.

Again, please! That is not my argument! I have fully agreed that Jesus is the same nature as the Father

But you continually contradict the belief that Jesus is the same nature as the Father.

and I know that Jesus prayed to the Father that we would be just like him in our nature with the Father

Can you show, exactly, where Jesus prayed "that we would be just like him in our nature with the Father"?

 

[miamited]

Hi Free

But down below you say that "But I find quite a bit of evidence that Jesus is not God."

That's correct. Because I don't see the 'fact' that Jesus has the nature of God to mean that Jesus is God. Actually every believer, as he grows in knowledge and faith in the one true and living God, should show others the nature of God by their words and deeds. I believe that's exactly what Paul was referring to when he says that Jesus being in very nature God.

Your second statement contradicts the first. If Jesus is God in nature, then by definition he is God.

See, that's the thing I'm not in agreement with. Donald Trump has the nature of Satan, but that doesn't make him Satan. Sorry to bring politics into the discussion, but it really is, I believe, a good example of what this 'being in nature God' means.

I think that it is true of all father and son relationships.

So, for you, if a son is born of a man with the nature of a murdering rapist, his son will also be so? Ummmm, ok if you say so. Honestly, sometimes I'm not sure that you think through your ideas. But it happens to all of us from time to time. I've been there.

There is a separation of Jesus as the Son of God in human flesh,

Yes, well there is also a separation of Jesus and God in heaven. According to the Scriptures, Jesus was raised to the right hand of God. Even at the throne of God in heaven we read that John looked and behold he saw a lamb who had been slain. That' lamb is Jesus.

Jesus cannot be God because he died.

Well, I don't know about you, but I've read somewhere in the Scriptures that God cannot die. Maybe God's word isn't all true after all, eh? Now, you want to know what makes Jesus like God? The Holy Spirit! It is, as Jesus said in his prayer to his Father before his sacrifice. That they be one as he and the Father are one by the Spirit. As I understand the Scriptures, it is the Holy Spirit that makes God and Jesus one and it is that same Spirit that also makes us one with Jesus, and thus one with God. It is the Spirit my friend.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Free

Can you show, exactly, where Jesus prayed "that we would be just like him in our nature with the Father"?

John 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—

Now, Paul uses the word 'nature' to describe this oneness of God and Jesus.

BTW, just curious, but what's your understanding of the 'glory' that Jesus gave his followers? The glory that Jesus says he got from the Father and has also given this same glory to his disciples.

God bless,
Ted