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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Universal Reconciliation - False teaching poll
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
I
IndianaEnoch
Guest
Jason said:
If relativism means truth as related to Jesus, then I am relavent because I am absolutly sure Jesus is the only truth.
:roll: :roll:
M
Monkey Del
Guest
What is UR? I am unfamiliar with it.
B
blueberry pie
Guest
Monkey Del said:
To answer your question, here is a copy and paste from (http://www.auburn.edu). I just did a quick search for a summary on UR, so I hope this will help you understand what they believe:
Many people confuse TRUE CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM with pluralistic, humanistic, or secular universalism. Questions asked every day betray the general ignorance prevailing as to the beliefs of TRUE Christian Universalism. No faith is so grand or complete as true Christian Universalism, and yet so misunderstood. People ask if the Christian Universalists believe in God, if they believe in Christ, if they believe in the Bible, if they believe in a hereafter, if they believe in prayer, and even if they believe in punishment,-- when I know of no Christian people who emphasize as strongly as they do the absolute certainty of punishment. It seems to be the opinion of most all Christian people that the Christian Universalists beliefs are founded upon negations, whereas their affirmations express as strong an evangelistic faith as that professed by any other Christians on earth.
True Christian Universalism is not a new belief (it did not begin in the late 1700's and early 1800's as is assumed by some people.) Rather, its principles are as old as the Christian records. It was prophecied in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament. It is the faith that was declared by Jesus, the Apostles, and the Christian church in it's earliest days. It claims the New Testament as the basis of its doctrines. It cites the Gospels, the Apostolic History and the Epistles, Christ, and his first ministers, as authority for its pretensions.
Of the six theological schools known to exist from the second to the fourth centuries, four of them believed and taught the concepts of Christian Universalism, one taught annihilation, and only one taught eternal torment, the school of Rome. You find members of almost every Christian communion, Greek, Romish, Lutheran, Church of England, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Friends, etc., etc., differing widely in many respects, but all agreeing in this one Divine truth, that God loves all men, and will have them to be saved; that Christ gave himself a ransom for all, and that all will ultimately be brought to holiness and happiness.
The Bible is the creed of the true Christian Universalist. In this respect, the true Christian Universalist Faith is the same as most other Christians differing mainly in the one distinguishing doctrine of Christian Universalism which is concerned with the extent of God's love and the final results of His salvation.
That one distinguishing doctrine of true "Christian Universalism", in its simple and proper theological sense, is the doctrine of universal reconciliation, universal salvation; or in other words, of the final holiness and happiness of all mankind, to be effected by the grace of God, through the ministry of his Son, Jesus Christ.
Yes, Christian Universalists believe that sin has its consequences. They believe in a just retribution for sin. They believe that God, as the moral governor of the universe, will bestow righteous and equitable rewards and punishments upon all mankind according to their several characters or deserts; but that all punishment will be remedial, and consequently limited.
Although Christian Universalists have composed many Statements of Faith thoughout the years to express their beliefs, the standard profession used by many, which has stood the test of time, was composed in 1803 and consisted of three short articles, or paragraphs. A fourth article was added by some Christian Universalists to further clarify their beliefs concerning rewards and punishments. The Profession is shown below with all four articles.
We believe, that the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments contain a revelation of the character of God, and of the duty, interest, and final destination of mankind.
We believe there is one God, whose nature is love; revealed in one Lord Jesus Christ, by one Holy Spirit of grace, who will finally restore the whole family of mankind to holiness and happiness.
We believe, that holiness and true happiness are inseparably connected; and that believers ought to maintain order, and practice good works, for these things are good and profitable unto men.
We believe that God, as the moral governor of the universe, will restore righteous and equitable rewards and punishments upon all mankind according to their several characters or deserts; but that all punishment will be remedial, and consequently limited.
X
xsearnold
Guest
I do not claim to have exhaustively studied this UR doctrine. The arguments and scriptures put forth to support it are very compelling. Like Henry, my initial reaction is that its implication contradicts the need for evangelizing, however, this misconception is quickly disspelled by reading almost any overview of the topic.
Jason wonders how so many can believe UR to be true. As I noted, scriptural support is compelling, along with the ability to reconcile (no pun intended) one's understanding of an all-loving God with the eventual restoration of all mankind. This is particularly helpful when evangelizing those whose loved ones have already died in their sin - it gives hope for ultimate reunion in heaven.
Having said this, at this point, I still believe the doctrine is false, based on a word study of the Greek word, aionios, which is often translated as "eternal" or "everlasting." UR proponents typically deflect verses using this term as mistranslated. The issue, however, is that that this same Greek word is applied in scripture to indicate God's nature (as eternal) and the "everlasting"-ness of our reward for becoming a Christ-follower. This being the case, how can the word mean one thing when applied to God or life, yet not mean the same thing when applied to the penalty for sin?
Consider, for example, the following:
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting (aionios) life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40
This reference indicates that God's will includes a condition - "see"-ing and believing. It also indicates that those who have met this condition Jesus will raise up at the last day. UR proponents often cite God's will "that all men be saved" but do not include this verse regarding God's will. They also tend to say that this ultimate reconciliation for ALL will occur "at the fulness of time" (when time is no more). One wonders, then, whether fulness of time is synonymous with "the last day."
Aionios is also used to speak of the judgment awaiting the devil and his angels. Not all UR proponents extend reconciliation to the devil and his angels, so they would agree with this instance being translated as "eternal."
I suppose one could argue that "aionios" can sometimes be translated in the eternal sense and sometimes in the "indefinite period of time" sense. If this is the premise, however, then the foundation is shaky and no position can be "known" assuredly.
My (lengthy) two-cents.
Jason wonders how so many can believe UR to be true. As I noted, scriptural support is compelling, along with the ability to reconcile (no pun intended) one's understanding of an all-loving God with the eventual restoration of all mankind. This is particularly helpful when evangelizing those whose loved ones have already died in their sin - it gives hope for ultimate reunion in heaven.
Having said this, at this point, I still believe the doctrine is false, based on a word study of the Greek word, aionios, which is often translated as "eternal" or "everlasting." UR proponents typically deflect verses using this term as mistranslated. The issue, however, is that that this same Greek word is applied in scripture to indicate God's nature (as eternal) and the "everlasting"-ness of our reward for becoming a Christ-follower. This being the case, how can the word mean one thing when applied to God or life, yet not mean the same thing when applied to the penalty for sin?
Consider, for example, the following:
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting (aionios) life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40
This reference indicates that God's will includes a condition - "see"-ing and believing. It also indicates that those who have met this condition Jesus will raise up at the last day. UR proponents often cite God's will "that all men be saved" but do not include this verse regarding God's will. They also tend to say that this ultimate reconciliation for ALL will occur "at the fulness of time" (when time is no more). One wonders, then, whether fulness of time is synonymous with "the last day."
Aionios is also used to speak of the judgment awaiting the devil and his angels. Not all UR proponents extend reconciliation to the devil and his angels, so they would agree with this instance being translated as "eternal."
I suppose one could argue that "aionios" can sometimes be translated in the eternal sense and sometimes in the "indefinite period of time" sense. If this is the premise, however, then the foundation is shaky and no position can be "known" assuredly.
My (lengthy) two-cents.
B
blueberry pie
Guest
xsearnold said:
This is not a problem.
It seems that Heaven is not eternal either and I think that's cool. Where will we go with God after the heavens and the earth have passed away, all our reconciled and we've enjoyed Heaven for a time? What comes after that? Something very exciting and amazing, I am sure, especially since sin and suffering and evil will be long gone. xsearnold said:
Well, UR proponents believe that the unsaved will go to hell after judgement day but the saved to Heaven ... and that hell is not eternal but that eventually all will be reconciled to God. So, I don't see how John 6:40 is in anyway contradictory to UR.
Oh goody: A poll! Can the Apostle Paul cast a vote, or any of the prophets?
"He has made known to us the secret of His will.
And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--
The purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him.
And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."
The Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Dance, has been given power over all/pas things in all/pas dimensions of the heavens, the earth and the underworld. This same Christ, who by the power that enables him to bring everything under His control, will hopefully accomplish the mission in fulness.
Plan Z
Jesus Christ will bring some things under His control/hupotasso.
Plan X
Jesus Christ can bring all things under his control, but the Father has only purposed some things to be hupotasso (d) under Him that He might be all in some.
Plan A
Jesus Christ can, and will, bring all/everything/ pas under his control in the fulness of times. The Father has ordained that to him all creation shall ultimately belong; that every knee shall bow in worship, and every tongue confess in praise and thanksgiving: You are Lord. From the Father everything comes, through the Father everything exists, and in the Father everything ends, for He is the Source, the Guide and the Goal of all that is.
"...The Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ who shall transfigure/ metamorphoo these dying bodies of ours that they may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the power that enables him to bring everything under/ his control."
Bringing Everything Into Subjection
Subdue= Hupotasso=
To subject one's self in obedience.
To submit to one's control.
To yield to one's admonition and advice.
To obey. To subject one's self.
To arrange under/ to subordinate.
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".
"He has made known to us the secret of His will.
And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--
The purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him.
And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."
The Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Dance, has been given power over all/pas things in all/pas dimensions of the heavens, the earth and the underworld. This same Christ, who by the power that enables him to bring everything under His control, will hopefully accomplish the mission in fulness.
Plan Z
Jesus Christ will bring some things under His control/hupotasso.
Plan X
Jesus Christ can bring all things under his control, but the Father has only purposed some things to be hupotasso (d) under Him that He might be all in some.
Plan A
Jesus Christ can, and will, bring all/everything/ pas under his control in the fulness of times. The Father has ordained that to him all creation shall ultimately belong; that every knee shall bow in worship, and every tongue confess in praise and thanksgiving: You are Lord. From the Father everything comes, through the Father everything exists, and in the Father everything ends, for He is the Source, the Guide and the Goal of all that is.
"...The Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ who shall transfigure/ metamorphoo these dying bodies of ours that they may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the power that enables him to bring everything under/ his control."
Bringing Everything Into Subjection
Subdue= Hupotasso=
To subject one's self in obedience.
To submit to one's control.
To yield to one's admonition and advice.
To obey. To subject one's self.
To arrange under/ to subordinate.
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".
X
xsearnold
Guest
Actually, it is a problem. God is eternal (aionios) - if He isn't, then He isn't God. Our reward is eternal (aionios) life - if it isn't then the reward has an end and is limited.blueberry pie said:xsearnold said:
This is not a problem.
So, are you saying that those who are unsaved will eventually meet the condition of seeing and believing? Are you saying that these will also be raised by Jesus "on the last day?" If this "last day" raising includes everyone, then the distinction made in John 6:40 is illogical. If the distinction is clear, and only the "saved" will be raised on the last day, then there is no later resurrection day for the unsaved - or it's not the last day. There can be no day after the last day.blueberry pie said:xsearnold said:
Well, UR proponents believe that the unsaved will go to hell after judgement day but the saved to Heaven ... and that hell is not eternal but that eventually all will be reconciled to God. So, I don't see how John 6:40 is in anyway contradictory to UR.
B
blueberry pie
Guest
Full length article: http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/xxeternity
"Eternity" is one of the most controversial words in the Bible. To many, it is thought to be the realm where time goes on and on, non-stop, ad infinitum, into which one enters after death. Based upon decisions, affiliations, and actions made in this life on earth, it is supposed one irreversibly fixes his destiny for all eternity. The few who make heaven strum their harps and walk streets of gold with Jesus and all the happy saints. The vast multitudes who miss heaven, enter an eternal hell of burning torment and anguish. These notions which has shaped man’s and the church’s views of God, have motivated some to embrace religion’s answers whereas others turn to atheism. Still others are left neutralized and confused over whether God is a God of love, power, and mercy, or of hate, ineptitude, and vindictiveness.
The words "forever" and "everlasting," and the phrase "forever and ever" are used throughout scripture as synonyms for the word "eternal. Wesbster’s Dictionary defines "eternal" as "of infinite duration," "everlasting," "timeless," "perpetual," and "immutable." Rom.1:16 describes the Godhead as "eternal," here translated from the Greek word
"aidios." "Eternal" is an excellent adjective for God. Clearly He has no beginning nor end. He neither sleeps for ages. It matters not what men nor devils say nor do. He continues steadfast in His plan and purpose. He is perpetual and never changes. With God there is "no variableness, neither shadow of turning" James.1:17. His fore- knowledge is perfect. "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the ages" Acts 15:18.
Essential to our understanding of the New Testament scriptures is a clear perception of what eternity and how the word "eternal" differs from the word from which it is translated. It is generally preached that eternity is a state of being into which Christians enter upon physical death and that eternal life describes the life the believer receives from God. But nowhere in the scriptures is a Greek word meaning "eternal" used to describe the life God gives to a Christian. This is proven by Jesus Himself in His one and
only definition of the life He gives. For the purpose of clarity, the original Greek word "aeonios" will be inserted for the translator’s word "eternal." Jesus said, "Now this is aeonios life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent" John 17:3. Clearly this life has nothing to do with eternity, but is a quality of relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ who brings us into a present knowledge and experience with God our Father.
Equating aeonios life to eternal life is an impossibility. "Aeonios" and "eternal" are words having totally different meanings. They are not interchangeable. Jesus who should be our sole authority, describes aeonios life as a dynamic relationship, the outcome of which is growth and change. Although the adjective "eternal" is appropriate for God, it is certainly
inappropriate for the believer’s life in God, because though God is of "infinite duration, everlasting, timeless, perpetual and immutable" (the definition from Webster’s Dictionary quoted earlier), the believers’s life is one of continuous change over aeons of time. This process begins in the spirit of the believer and requires time to be completed. A Christian may commonly speak of and desire to have eternal life, but it hardly seems possible that he should want eternal life now or upon death, until he is totally and perfectly conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
To understand this better, we must know about the word "aeonios." The Greek adjective "aeonios," for which so many translations mistakenly use the word "eternal" is derived from the noun "aeon." "Aeon" means "age" or "ages," as in "the mystery which has been hid from ages and generations" (Col.1:26), or in "the ages to come" Eph.2:7. These ages are time periods having a beginning and an end. In the study of grammar, it is an
indisputable law that an adjective can have no different or greater meaning than the noun from which it is derived. For example, the adjective "monthly" could only be derived from the noun "month," not "hour," "day," or "week." Aeonios life can only mean a life pertaining to an age or ages of time (Heb.1:3 Ampl.) because "aeonios" is derived from "aeon." Hence, the misapplication of the word "eternal," implying timelessness, when periods or portions of time are meant, obscures rather than proclaims God’s magnificent plans for man.
"Eternity" is one of the most controversial words in the Bible. To many, it is thought to be the realm where time goes on and on, non-stop, ad infinitum, into which one enters after death. Based upon decisions, affiliations, and actions made in this life on earth, it is supposed one irreversibly fixes his destiny for all eternity. The few who make heaven strum their harps and walk streets of gold with Jesus and all the happy saints. The vast multitudes who miss heaven, enter an eternal hell of burning torment and anguish. These notions which has shaped man’s and the church’s views of God, have motivated some to embrace religion’s answers whereas others turn to atheism. Still others are left neutralized and confused over whether God is a God of love, power, and mercy, or of hate, ineptitude, and vindictiveness.
The words "forever" and "everlasting," and the phrase "forever and ever" are used throughout scripture as synonyms for the word "eternal. Wesbster’s Dictionary defines "eternal" as "of infinite duration," "everlasting," "timeless," "perpetual," and "immutable." Rom.1:16 describes the Godhead as "eternal," here translated from the Greek word
"aidios." "Eternal" is an excellent adjective for God. Clearly He has no beginning nor end. He neither sleeps for ages. It matters not what men nor devils say nor do. He continues steadfast in His plan and purpose. He is perpetual and never changes. With God there is "no variableness, neither shadow of turning" James.1:17. His fore- knowledge is perfect. "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the ages" Acts 15:18.
Essential to our understanding of the New Testament scriptures is a clear perception of what eternity and how the word "eternal" differs from the word from which it is translated. It is generally preached that eternity is a state of being into which Christians enter upon physical death and that eternal life describes the life the believer receives from God. But nowhere in the scriptures is a Greek word meaning "eternal" used to describe the life God gives to a Christian. This is proven by Jesus Himself in His one and
only definition of the life He gives. For the purpose of clarity, the original Greek word "aeonios" will be inserted for the translator’s word "eternal." Jesus said, "Now this is aeonios life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent" John 17:3. Clearly this life has nothing to do with eternity, but is a quality of relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ who brings us into a present knowledge and experience with God our Father.
Equating aeonios life to eternal life is an impossibility. "Aeonios" and "eternal" are words having totally different meanings. They are not interchangeable. Jesus who should be our sole authority, describes aeonios life as a dynamic relationship, the outcome of which is growth and change. Although the adjective "eternal" is appropriate for God, it is certainly
inappropriate for the believer’s life in God, because though God is of "infinite duration, everlasting, timeless, perpetual and immutable" (the definition from Webster’s Dictionary quoted earlier), the believers’s life is one of continuous change over aeons of time. This process begins in the spirit of the believer and requires time to be completed. A Christian may commonly speak of and desire to have eternal life, but it hardly seems possible that he should want eternal life now or upon death, until he is totally and perfectly conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
To understand this better, we must know about the word "aeonios." The Greek adjective "aeonios," for which so many translations mistakenly use the word "eternal" is derived from the noun "aeon." "Aeon" means "age" or "ages," as in "the mystery which has been hid from ages and generations" (Col.1:26), or in "the ages to come" Eph.2:7. These ages are time periods having a beginning and an end. In the study of grammar, it is an
indisputable law that an adjective can have no different or greater meaning than the noun from which it is derived. For example, the adjective "monthly" could only be derived from the noun "month," not "hour," "day," or "week." Aeonios life can only mean a life pertaining to an age or ages of time (Heb.1:3 Ampl.) because "aeonios" is derived from "aeon." Hence, the misapplication of the word "eternal," implying timelessness, when periods or portions of time are meant, obscures rather than proclaims God’s magnificent plans for man.
Zoe aionios eternal life, occurs 42 times in the New Covenant and is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. - Dr. Marvin Vincent (Olethron Aionion)-
Prof. Tayler Lewis
Dr. Edward Beecher has written a book on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution. Dr. Beecher lived from 1803-1895 and was....
1. First president of the Illinois College.
2. Founded the Congregationalist.
3. Pastor of numerous Congregationalist Churches.
4. Professor of Biblical Exegesis at the Chicago Theological Seminary.
5. D.D. conferred on Edward Beecher by Marietta College (1841)
We are indebted, for what we shall say on this version, to that eminent scholar Prof. Tayler Lewis. To see the full force of it, it is necessary to state first his own views of the word aionios. They are found in a profound development of the use of what he calls the Olamic or Aeonian words of the Scripture. He complains, and that justly, that their Scriptural use is hidden by our translation.
His views will be found on pp. 44-51 of Lange’s “Commentary on Ecclesiastes,†and also pp. 135-143 of the “Commentary on Genesis.â€Â
Views of Prof. Lewis
He very correctly assumes that aion has the sense of an age, that is, a period of time. He regards the boundless duration of God as filled with successive ages or dispensations. These ages are numberless before our world was created; during this world there are ages, and there will be numberless ages after its close.
Scriptural Names
The usual Scriptural names of these ages are Olam in Hebrew, and Aion in Greek. These words are, in themselves, wholly indefinite, and the ages may vary greatly in length. They are not measured by ordinary astronomical computations of time, as days, months, years.
See Lange’s “Genesis,†p. 141, note.
Use of the Ages
Now, in this state of things, two modes are conceivable of impressing the mind with the magnitude of the duration of God and his kingdom: to use simple negations of beginning or end, leaving eternity, past and future, an undivided blank, or, to fill the mind with the conception of innumerable ages, past or future, and to reduplicate the expression “by ages of ages.â€Â
He insists upon it that this latter mode of speaking is the Scriptural mode, and that it affects the mind more with approximate conceptions of eternity than what he calls conceptionless, negative words.
Neither Denotes Eternity
But he insists that this use of olam and aion, in the plural to denote ages, and ages of ages, implies of necessity that neither of the words, of itself, denotes eternity. He admits that these words are used to give an idea of eternity, as applied to God and his kingdom, while yet the ages that are reduplicated are themselves finite, but by their magnitude and number raise an impressive approximate conception of eternity.
See Lange’s “Ecclesiastes,†pp. 45, 50
Result
In view of these facts we need not be surprised at finding in Prof. Tayler Lewis the following clear development of the logical result of these views. He says:
“The preacher, in contending with the Universalist and the Restorationist, would commit an error, and it may be suffer a failure in his argument, should he lay the whole stress of it on the etymological or historical significance of the words aion, aionios, and attempt to prove that of themselves they necessarily carry the meaning of endless durationâ€Â
Lange’s “Ecclesiastes,†p. 48
What, then, does aionios here mean? He says that it means pertaining to the age or world to come, taking world in the time-sense, and thus translates the passaage. “These shall go away into the punishment [the restraint, imprisonment] of the world to come, and these into the life of the world to come,†and he adds, emphatically, “that is all that we can etymologically or exegetically make of the word in this passage.â€Â
"We must die, and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again. But God does not take away life; instead He deviseth ways for the banished to be restored.
What The New Testament Teaches:
Aeonian Life Passes Into A Region Above Time
Let us next consider the true meaning of the words "aion" and "aionios".
These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators "everlasting," for ever and ever:" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for "aion" means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective "aionios" means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and NEVER "everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.....
NOTE:
The word "Aionios" by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"--Canon Farrar -
"The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages."--Rev. J.S.Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.
" 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, "that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by 'olam' (the Hebrew word corresponding to "aion"), and aion means any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity."
The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity), it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural--how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does?"--C. Kingsley.
So the secular games, celebrated every century were called "eternal" by the Greeks.--(See HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)
...Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with Maurice) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase "eternal life" (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual. Thus, in Saint John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God (Zao Life). Thus, e.g., God's commandment is life eternal,--ib. 17.3, and Christ is the eternal life.--1 John 1:2, 20.
Quality & Quantity
Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus "eternal" punishment is one thing, and "everlasting" punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for "everlasting" the word "eternal" in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word. Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for "eternal" in strictness has no beginning.
Aaronic Priesthood Long Ceased To Exist
Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited--nay, a very limited duration--to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be "for ever," to be "everlasting" (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being "for ever with the Lord"--these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.
Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist
As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)--in common use among the Jews in our Lord's time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point--these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.
Thus
The Aaronic priesthood is said to be "everlasting," -Numb.25:13-
The land of Canaan is given as an "everlasting" possession, and "for ever" -Gen. 17:8...Gen. 18:15-
In Deut. 23:3, "for ever" is distinctly made an equivalent to "even to the tenth generation."
In Lamentations 5:19, "for ever and ever" is the equivalent of from "generation to generation."
The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen "for ever" -Lev. 25:46-
In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant "for ever."
Caleb obtains his inheritance "for ever" -Joshua 14:9-
And David's seed is to endure "for ever," his throne "for ever," his house "for ever;" nay, the passover is to endure "for ever;" and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be "dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us."
So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.--(Ezek. 16:55)
Christ's Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet
And Christ's kingdom is to last "for ever," yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.--(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.
NOTE:
Thus Josephus calls "aeonian," the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.
Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not
Further, if this translation of aionios as "eternal," in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.
In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the "eternities." We can comprehend what "eternity" is, but what are the "eternities?" You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: "Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities."
In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come."
Our Lord's words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, "the harvest is the end of the eternity," i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.
Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, "the cares," not of "this world," but "the cares of this eternity choke the word."
In Luke 16:8, "The children of this world," should be "the children of this eternity."
In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, "upon whom the ends of the world are come," should be: "the ends of the eternities."
Take next, Gal. 1:4: "That He might deliver us from this present evil world," should run thus: "from this present evil eternity."
In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: "Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity."
And "Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested," should read, on the popular view, "at the end of the eternities."
Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;
Difficulties
1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?
2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?
3. How come such phrases as for the "aion" or aions and beyond?--ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.--(see Sept. Ex. 15:18...Dan. 12:3...Micah 4:5)
4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?--Matt. 13:39-40-49;...Matt. 24:3...Matt. 28:20...1 Cor. 10:11...Hebr. 9:26.
5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19...Acts 3:21...Rom. 12:2...1 Cor. 1:20...1 Cor. 2:6...1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.
If Aion Is Not Infinite
But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms "eternal" (when used as the equivalent of "endless") and "everlasting?" [/color][/b][/size]
Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.
They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of "the ages." This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.
Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking "what should be the sign of the end of the world." It should be the end of the "age;" the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.
In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the "world," but of the "age," an important change.
So John 17:3, "this is life eternal," should be "the life of the ages," i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.
Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, "eternal salvation" should be "aeonian" or of the ages; "eternal redemption" is the redemption "of the ages;" the eternal covenant is the "covenant of the ages," the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.
In Eph. 3:11, "the eternal purpose" is really the purpose of "the ages," i.e., worked out in "the ages."
In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, "until all the generations of the age of the ages." Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering "throughout all ages."
In 1 Cor. 10:11 "the ends of the world" are the "ends of the ages." In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated "world," it should be "age' or "ages" in all cases.
And here it is impossible to avoid asking how--assuming that aion does mean "world" in these cases--how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as "everlasting?" If it mean "world," then the adjective should be "worldly," "of the world." And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering "age."
-Christ Triumphant by Rev. Thomas Allin-
Aionios is the adjective of aion. An adjective CANNOT take on more force than the noun it is derived from.
Aeonian Life Passes Into A Region Above Time
Let us next consider the true meaning of the words "aion" and "aionios".
These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators "everlasting," for ever and ever:" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for "aion" means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective "aionios" means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and NEVER "everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.....
NOTE:
The word "Aionios" by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"--Canon Farrar -
"The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages."--Rev. J.S.Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.
" 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, "that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by 'olam' (the Hebrew word corresponding to "aion"), and aion means any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity."
The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity), it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural--how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does?"--C. Kingsley.
So the secular games, celebrated every century were called "eternal" by the Greeks.--(See HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)
...Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with Maurice) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase "eternal life" (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual. Thus, in Saint John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God (Zao Life). Thus, e.g., God's commandment is life eternal,--ib. 17.3, and Christ is the eternal life.--1 John 1:2, 20.
Quality & Quantity
Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus "eternal" punishment is one thing, and "everlasting" punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for "everlasting" the word "eternal" in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word. Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for "eternal" in strictness has no beginning.
Aaronic Priesthood Long Ceased To Exist
Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited--nay, a very limited duration--to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be "for ever," to be "everlasting" (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being "for ever with the Lord"--these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.
Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist
As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)--in common use among the Jews in our Lord's time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point--these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.
Thus
The Aaronic priesthood is said to be "everlasting," -Numb.25:13-
The land of Canaan is given as an "everlasting" possession, and "for ever" -Gen. 17:8...Gen. 18:15-
In Deut. 23:3, "for ever" is distinctly made an equivalent to "even to the tenth generation."
In Lamentations 5:19, "for ever and ever" is the equivalent of from "generation to generation."
The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen "for ever" -Lev. 25:46-
In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant "for ever."
Caleb obtains his inheritance "for ever" -Joshua 14:9-
And David's seed is to endure "for ever," his throne "for ever," his house "for ever;" nay, the passover is to endure "for ever;" and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be "dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us."
So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.--(Ezek. 16:55)
Christ's Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet
And Christ's kingdom is to last "for ever," yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.--(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.
NOTE:
Thus Josephus calls "aeonian," the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.
Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not
Further, if this translation of aionios as "eternal," in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.
In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the "eternities." We can comprehend what "eternity" is, but what are the "eternities?" You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: "Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities."
In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come."
Our Lord's words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, "the harvest is the end of the eternity," i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.
Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, "the cares," not of "this world," but "the cares of this eternity choke the word."
In Luke 16:8, "The children of this world," should be "the children of this eternity."
In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, "upon whom the ends of the world are come," should be: "the ends of the eternities."
Take next, Gal. 1:4: "That He might deliver us from this present evil world," should run thus: "from this present evil eternity."
In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: "Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity."
And "Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested," should read, on the popular view, "at the end of the eternities."
Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;
Difficulties
1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?
2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?
3. How come such phrases as for the "aion" or aions and beyond?--ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.--(see Sept. Ex. 15:18...Dan. 12:3...Micah 4:5)
4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?--Matt. 13:39-40-49;...Matt. 24:3...Matt. 28:20...1 Cor. 10:11...Hebr. 9:26.
5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19...Acts 3:21...Rom. 12:2...1 Cor. 1:20...1 Cor. 2:6...1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.
If Aion Is Not Infinite
But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms "eternal" (when used as the equivalent of "endless") and "everlasting?" [/color][/b][/size]
Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.
They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of "the ages." This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.
Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking "what should be the sign of the end of the world." It should be the end of the "age;" the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.
In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the "world," but of the "age," an important change.
So John 17:3, "this is life eternal," should be "the life of the ages," i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.
Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, "eternal salvation" should be "aeonian" or of the ages; "eternal redemption" is the redemption "of the ages;" the eternal covenant is the "covenant of the ages," the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.
In Eph. 3:11, "the eternal purpose" is really the purpose of "the ages," i.e., worked out in "the ages."
In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, "until all the generations of the age of the ages." Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering "throughout all ages."
In 1 Cor. 10:11 "the ends of the world" are the "ends of the ages." In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated "world," it should be "age' or "ages" in all cases.
And here it is impossible to avoid asking how--assuming that aion does mean "world" in these cases--how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as "everlasting?" If it mean "world," then the adjective should be "worldly," "of the world." And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering "age."
-Christ Triumphant by Rev. Thomas Allin-
Aionios is the adjective of aion. An adjective CANNOT take on more force than the noun it is derived from.
C
Charlotte
Guest
Jason,
But it is the truth. If you truly want to know and understand about the word eternal you will do a search on the word aionion.
The Greek word aion or its Hebrew equivalent olam, should never be translated as forever, everlasting or eternity.
Charlotte
But it is the truth. If you truly want to know and understand about the word eternal you will do a search on the word aionion.
The Greek word aion or its Hebrew equivalent olam, should never be translated as forever, everlasting or eternity.
Charlotte
I
IndianaEnoch
Guest
IF you want to know the truth about aionion, you need to stoplistening to internet teachers with an agenda who cliam to have the correct understanding of what the NT teaches. The fact is eternaly means eternal. This aionion excuse is extremly weak.
B
blueberry pie
Guest
Oh ya, Greek Scholars NEVER put their studies and articles on the internet. :roll: Only pretend Greek Scholars "with agendas". No offense, Indiana, but you have a lot of "different" beliefs from BOOKS you have read. How's that any different that reading books that are online?
Are you a Greek Scholar? Do you have proof to go with such an extreme statement?
IndianaEnoch said:
Are you a Greek Scholar? Do you have proof to go with such an extreme statement?
I agree with indiana. There are a lot of internet teachers with agendas. And translating the Greek to English is fast becoming one of the most abused deceiving devices used by false teachers. All they need to say is "in the Greek it means".... and most people will never check. There are good teachers out there who are not only qualified but also love the truth and even these people can be wrong sometimes. Just looking a word up in a Greek dictionary doesn't always define a word properly as it was used. Choose your Greek scholars carefully, and at a minimum test their definition to the rest of God's Word in English. Compairing commentaries is helpful in exposing some abusers.
God bless
Job
You got that right.
God bless
Job
You got that right.
Scofield: Your task is simple. Simply answer the questions presented....
1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?
2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?
3. How come such phrases as for the "aion" or aions and beyond?--ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.--(see Sept. Ex. 15:18...Dan. 12:3...Micah 4:5)
4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?--Matt. 13:39-40-49;...Matt. 24:3...Matt. 28:20...1 Cor. 10:11...Hebr. 9:26.
5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19...Acts 3:21...Rom. 12:2...1 Cor. 1:20...1 Cor. 2:6...1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.
"He has made known to us the secret of His will.
And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--
The purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him.
And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."
- Thread starter
- #39
I love when you call me Scofield. :D I can tell you that forever means...guess what, FOREVER!
http://www.carm.org/uni/aionion.htm
http://www.carm.org/uni/greekdict.htm
http://www.carm.org/uni/foreverandever.htm
http://www.carm.org/uni/aionion.htm
http://www.carm.org/uni/greekdict.htm
http://www.carm.org/uni/foreverandever.htm
B
blueberry pie
Guest
Job said:
This is sadly true. I always double check on anything I refer to the Greek for.
For instance, Trinitarians will use Greek to prove Trinity and Oneness will do the same thing. So, which is the correct meaning?!!!! You have to carefully check all your sources and never go by one single solitary source. In the past, I've even double checked with a Greek Scholar one on one. As a general rule, it's best not to get too caught up on the "Greek definitions" when you aren't a scholar, stick to reading Scripture in context and as a whole.
Another mistake is interpreting the meanings of Scripture passages by using modern dictionary definitions. Use concordances. Words change over time and so do meanings.Job said:
Very good advice.