"Us" and "Them"

[Bonairos]

One of the very few books I have kept and re-read occasionally in my nearly three decades of knowing the Lord Jesus Christ is titled, “The Cost Of Commitment†by John White. It ministered directly to me insomuch that it was a must read for those I was privileged to raise up in ministry.

In it (and I’m paraphrasing) he spoke of a time when he was a practicing intern while in the medical field. Part of his internship was to help out at the local sexual transmitted disease center. Upon arriving late, he was greeted by a long line of individuals waiting to be treated.

After being told to go to the back of the line by the receptionist, he said he vehemently attempted to make his point that he was a medical intern. In which the receptionist replied, “Even medical students catch STDs!†After the confusion was cleared, she understood that he was there to help administer treatment and not be treated himself.

It was at that point (after distinguishing himself) he realized that his defense wasn’t so much about being misunderstood about his reasons for being there, but rather that he did NOT want to be identified with those who were infected. He then went on to relay the lesson he learned of how the Lord Himself was not ashamed to be identified with our sins.

The question I pose is simply this. “Why do we in the church disdain the thought and even worse, the appearance of being identified with the sins of another?â€

Why is it that when we relay our views (no matter how subtle), it seems we make effort to clarify and distinguish between “Us†and “Them†in our feeble attempts to minister grace and mercy?

Your responses might prove or disprove my ponderings.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[Mike]

It was at that point (after distinguishing himself) he realized that his defense wasn’t so much about being misunderstood about his reasons for being there, but rather that he did NOT want to be identified with those who were infected. He then went on to relay the lesson he learned of how the Lord Himself was not ashamed to be identified with our sins.

Hey, B

This was a very powerful statement, IMO. It takes a person who is very honest to make this assessment of himself. He first has to be honest with himself, before he can be honest with others. Neither are easy bridges to make. To be real, I think few people, Christian or otherwise, put themselves completely out there. I believe most of us harbor emotions or feelings we don't want others to know about; sins we are too prideful to make known.

But all in all, I think there's something to be said for just wanting to be understood. In this context, I mean we don't mind taking accountability for our sins, because they're our sins. Deep down, I think we would say it is only right that we should suffer the shame for our own sins. I am not so ready to to do the same for those I haven't done.

When I was dating my wife, she had no insurance and we needed to access a medical center which, unbeknownst to us, also performed abortions. I say "us", because I drove her to an appointment. We were encountered be a woman who was protesting abortions. I made sure, if this woman knew anything about these two people who she likely would never see again, she would know that we were not there for an abortion. I explained to her, we were there for a check-up, and would have been willing to show her my then girlfriend's medical records to clear our names!

I guess I'm not understanding your parting question. Why do we not want to be associated with specific sin we don't struggle with? If that's your question, I hope I answered it when I talked about personal accountability. Let me know if I'm way off base!

 

[Bonairos]

This was a very powerful statement, IMO. It takes a person who is very honest to make this assessment of himself. He first has to be honest with himself, before he can be honest with others. Neither are easy bridges to make.

It's that self-portrait deep within. HAHA! Always on display, but rarely viewed.

To be real, I think few people, Christian or otherwise, put themselves completely out there. I believe most of us harbor emotions or feelings we don't want others to know about; sins we are too prideful to make known.

Hence no desire to attend church?

Deep down, I think we would say it is only right that we should suffer the shame for our own sins. I am not so ready to to do the same for those I haven't done.

I guess I'm not understanding your parting question. Why do we not want to be associated with specific sin we don't struggle with? If that's your question, I hope I answered it when I talked about personal accountability. Let me know if I'm way off base!

It's not so much 'claiming' another's sin as our own, I meant more so indentifying, being associated with (and whatever the implications may be) with the sinner, someone who may be (in our UN-humble opinion) worse than us.

It seems (definitely not all) too many of us (would even one be considered too many?) professing Believers give the impression, that we're the righteous ones helping YOU out of your unrighteousness. And yet members of ONE Body?

Sort of like, if you dug yourself a hole and was trapped. And all I did was throw you a line waiting to embrace you when you (finally) climbed out. Wouldn't I be more effective if I got down in that hole with you and we climbed out together; even at the expense of myself getting or looking dirty?

Now to clarify, I don't mean wallowing in it with you (and I trust you know my heart in using you and me as examples), but as being ONE Body in this Christ-life together.

Sometimes I think we forget, that when the world (not to mention Christ Himself) sees us (to include the vitual world as well), we tend to separate ourselves by "Us" and "Them". Those who minister . . . and those who need the ministering.

I just may have ended the thread unintentionally. I seriously wanted feedback so "we" can see "ourselves" and what "we" project. Again, in hopes of being effective.

And no, you weren't far off base, I was just off target in relaying my intent.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[betteroffdead]

The question I pose is simply this. “Why do we in the church disdain the thought and even worse, the appearance of being identified with the sins of another?â€

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that so many of our so-called clergymen are still themselves unrepentant sinners that legitimate clergymen (if there is such a thing in this country) cannot risk being seen in a bar or a strip club or a brothel because the public won’t believe that they are just there to spread the Gospel. Where I live we seldom go more than 3 months without hearing a news report about some pastor (usually Baptist) that has been arrested for child molestation, robbing their congregation or trying to pick up a prostitute.

If you’ve ever seen the movie Angel in My Pocket, staring Andy Griffith and Lee Meriweather, there is a seen where Griffith’s character, a church pastor, needs an organ for his church so he goes to a burlesque club that has an organ to give away or sell. He plays the organ to try it out and one of the strippers sees him play and thinks he is there for her rehearsal and starts doing her act. Of course one of the pastor’s church members sees him and starts telling everyone else where she had seen their preacher.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

 

[Mike]

Hence no desire to attend church?



Sort of like, if you dug yourself a hole and was trapped. And all I did was throw you a line waiting to embrace you when you (finally) climbed out. Wouldn't I be more effective if I got down in that hole with you and we climbed out together; even at the expense of myself getting or looking dirty?

Now to clarify, I don't mean wallowing in it with you (and I trust you know my heart in using you and me as examples), but as being ONE Body in this Christ-life together.

B, to your comment at the top of the page, are you asking if this is why people don't attend a church? I don't think so. I'm picturing all the plastic people who smile and wave "I'm fine. How are you?" that never want to reveal themselves to others. These people are fully integrated into the church community, but they hide their skeletons for fear of being rejected by their own members.

Now, to take your hypothetical hole, it seems the line down would be a more practical method of rescue, or else we could both be trapped down there. Funny, but it's good to have an anchor to tie a line to. Iron sharpens iron, and I believe I can help someone from safety better than I can from their predicament. I still feel like I'm missing your point entirely.

 

[handy]

Because we are in Lent, and because I go to a very conservative LCMS church, our pastor has opened the church every Saturday night for those who wish to go in for old-fashioned :o ....confession. Yep, every Saturday night until Good Friday, anyone may go into the sanctuary and confess directly to Pastor Reeder any sins that they might not have victory over. He will listen to any heartfelt confession, declare absolution for it is indeed promised that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness, and he (Pastor Reeder) promises to promptly forget about what is confessed, because the Lord says that He remembers our sins no more.


I don't know if anyone has gone in. I haven't see anyone there. Mainly, because I haven't been there myself.





Why not?

I think this gets at what you're getting at Bonairos...

See, I don't mind confessing my sins to Jesus, He knows about them already and He loves me anyway....

But, I don't want to confess them to my pastor, or anyone else.

...at least not certain sins. Isn't it strange that there are some sins we don't mind at all confessing to...'smatter of fact our "confessions" just might even take on the hint of, dare I say it, bragging...

But other sins...those sins that I don't even want my husband or my best friend knowing about...and believe me, they know a lot about me...why if I were to confess to actually sinning in these ways, I'd go from an "us" to a "them"...maybe not in God's eyes, because as I say, God knows about them already...but in the eyes of my hubby, bff, Pastor, you guys here on this board...nope, no way do I want to confess to you.

At the heart of this is fear of course...fear that my fellow Christians, even though they've been forgiven and cleansed from sin just as black as these one's that I'm hiding in my own heart, won't have as bad as memory as God's, that y'all will indeed remember what I've confessed and it will taint your idea of me...(she's not an "us" after all, she's one of "them"). I would worry that if I confess to y'all here, then when I speak on a thread about a moral issue, deep down inside folks will say "Yeah, but she does XXXX, so how can she say anything about YYYYY?"

Is this fear justified?

 

[Riverwolf]

"Sort of like, if you dug yourself a hole and was trapped. And all I did was throw you a line waiting to embrace you when you (finally) climbed out. Wouldn't I be more effective if I got down in that hole with you and we climbed out together; even at the expense of myself getting or looking dirty?"

This goes hand in hand to my recent thread on "Works". Either people did not understand me, or were ashamed to reply. Too many Christians including myself at most times simply want to run around in their "I'm saved, sorry about you" lives and not get involved. We have nothing in common with the bum on the corner, hope he gets his act together, but I don't know him anyway. I have not been to church in almost three years. I really liked my last church, missed maybe two times in over a year. I always looked real nice, new clean clothes, hair neatly tied back in a ponytail, beautiful bible, smile on my face. One day I run into an assistant pastor in a store. I've got my leathers on, Harley gear, hair hanging out from riding, etc... I could clearly see he was ashamed and nervous to be seen talking with me - God forbid if the neighbors see me with this low life! After that day I was not one of us, I became one of them. I soon left that place.

 

[Riverwolf]

"At the heart of this is fear of course...fear that my fellow Christians, even though they've been forgiven and cleansed from sin just as black as these one's that I'm hiding in my own heart, won't have as bad as memory as God's, that y'all will indeed remember what I've confessed and it will taint your idea of me...(she's not an "us" after all, she's one of "them"). I would worry that if I confess to y'all here, then when I speak on a thread about a moral issue, deep down inside folks will say "Yeah, but she does XXXX, so how can she say anything about YYYYY?"

Is this fear justified?<!-- google_ad_section_end --> "

Sure it is justified. But to participate on this board you will need to slowly reveal things about yourself. I will never think less of you. I already think more!

 

[xounstaer]

i hear people saying "due to my sin he was crusified"
it saddens me. i have never really understood how people who actually have no sin go take that position.

its like turning the tables around...

 

[Guap]

The question I pose is simply this. “Why do we in the church disdain the thought and even worse, the appearance of being identified with the sins of another?â€


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

I wonder if it is we think we want to think we are beyond sin. Perhaps that we no longer have any weaknesses and we see weakness in the sins of others. We are now more than conquerors! We are above 'them'.

Certainly this isn't the case with groups like AA. Here the leaders also identify with all in the group. They are all there because they are all alcoholics - still - just some are dry.

I wonder if church shouldn't be a SA (sinners a), where we all identify as being sinners - some struggling more than others. I know there are those who teach we should now be sinless and hate the thought of Christians struggling with sin.

Have you read the wounded healer? Perhaps that short book also might speak to you on the subject.

 

[Bonairos]

Wow. No, WOW!

Where do I even begin to respond? WOW!

This is what I’m talking about. Real Christian Living; with Real Issues; having Real Struggles; seeking Real Answers!

Yeah, we “Christians†have dirty laundry too. And no, we’re not too spiritual to talk about it. However, we got a cleansing Agent that can indeed get the stains out and wash them white as snow.

Riverwolf, you dirty biker you! (HAHA) Don’t you know you are supposed to hide when you’re not all prim and proper without the expected ‘front’ on?! “One day I run into an assistant pastor in a store. I've got my leathers on, Harley gear, hair hanging out from riding, etc... I could clearly see he was ashamed and nervous to be seen talking with me - God forbid if the neighbors see me with this low life! After that day I was not one of us, I became one of them.â€

Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m talking about!

And you Handy! “. . . it will taint your idea of me...(she's not an "us" after all, she's one of "them"). I would worry that if I confess to y'all here, then when I speak on a thread about a moral issue, deep down inside folks will say "Yeah, but she does XXXX, so how can she say anything about YYYYY?"

(gasping) “What would ever give you that idea?!†After all, We make every attempt to make you believe we, in the Church, will never judge you. We are fully(?) aware we have sinned ourselves! (Though I might add, not as bad as you!)

And to end your post with, “Is this fear justified?†Powerful!


Let’s go there Church, Let’s talk about this pink elephant in our midst.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

I will never think less of you. I already think more!

I echo that to BOTH of you!