Vessels of Destruction - Take 2

[smaller]

The problem with this objection of yours is that you need to make the case that, in Romans 9, the issue on Paul's mind is his own condition. I agree that Paul saw a "devil in himself" (I might not use this exact term, but I probably agree with your basic premise). I think that that "devil" is given the boot once Paul becomes a believer, but thats another story.

Do you bother to actually read the scriptures presented in these matters? Seriously!

2 Cor. 12:7 states that Paul, yes PAUL THE APOSTLE had a DEVIL put upon him BY GOD! For the precise INTENTION of making him WEAK and GODS OWN WORDS are stated by Paul in this matter as thus:

"MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS."

Do you think that DEVIL may have weakened him just a tad?

Now if you can't see TWO VESSELS right there in the LUMP OF PAUL I really don't know what to tell ya.

Paul was OBVIOUSLY a 'vessel of HONOUR.'

and that DEVIL was obviously NOT.

But there ARE TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES in the FLESH OF PAUL.

Paul and THE DEVIL upon Paul.

Now go look at Israel. What do you find? A SPIRIT OF SLUMBER that was PUT upon them by GOD. Wow. Isn't that amazing? There are the TWO VESSELS yet again.

Israel and THE SPIRIT of SLUMBER.

Now go look at ANY unbeliever and what do we see yet AGAIN? Why, it is the 'god of this world' BLINDING THEIR MINDS. Wow. Isn't that amazing. The UNBELIEVERS and SATAN, the 'god of this world.'

I really don't know how much simpler this can be Drew.

Jesus told and taught us all very clearly that WHERE THE WORD IS SOWN, THEN SATAN ENTERS THE HEARTS TO STEAL and to make IGNORANCE. That is termed by John the Apostle as THE SPIRIT OF ERROR.

Wow. Two vessels, again.

You seem to assume that just because Paul has this devil in him, this must be what he is talking about in Romans 9. But that is not what he is talking about in Romans 9. What is the problem on the table in Romans 9?

Your view has so many holes in it they cannot be counted. I've cited just a few. I doubt you've bothered to even TRY to understand an alternative other than your own. One never learns A THING until they consider ALTERNATIVES. There are very FEW mainline christian doctrinal positions of any mainline SECT that I do not know intimately because I LIKE to learn how others see things for COMPARISONS to my own views. I have had to CHANGE many times because what I held 30 years ago WAS IGNORANT, BLINDED and IN ERROR. And I learned these matters from WANTING to share and to find UNDERSTANDINGs. Don't YOU?

I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel.

One of the benefits of my proposal is that to see the vessels of destruction as these lost Jews functions as the perfect answer to the question that is actually on the table - which is not Paul's inner devil, or even an inner devil in all mankind, but rather the state of the nation of Israel.

Paul was ONCE A BLINDED MAN by SATAN as well. The encounter on the road to Damascus CURED that problem, and Paul was given his COMMAND, his APOSTOLIC MISSION AS FOLLOWS:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Paul also made another discovery that grieved him horrendously and it grieves me as well. THE MORE ONE PREACHES, THE HARDER SATAN, THE BLINDER GETS UPON PEOPLE. Do you understand that the WORD hardens SATAN to RESISTANCE?

In the end it is ONLY GOD who raises THE VESSELS OF HONOUR TO SEE. Otherwise they remain SLAVES by GODS INTENTIONS to HARDEN THE DEVILS upon their MINDS. And GOD DOES THIS to JUDGE DEVILS, so even the UNBELIEVERS serve GOD in the judgment of the VESSELS OF DISHONOUR in this way. That BLINDED UNBELIEVER may be doing GOD more service than YOU can see?

I am simply giving Paul the credit for addressing the problems he has raised. On your position, he raises one problem - the sad state of Israel - and then answers an entirely different problem in the potter metaphor - the state of lost people in general.

God intentionally BLINDED Israel with A SPIRIT OF SLUMBER. As much as Paul may have desired that to have been removed Paul KNEW that these matters were BEYOND his control.

GOD IS SOVEREIGN KING of ALL THINGS.

May this EVER be SO. I expect a FAR better conclusion than 'many.'

Paul also saw that GOD SAVES ALL OF ISRAEL in the final analysis in Romans 11:25-32, yes EVEN ENEMIES of the Gospel. But IF a man is BLINDED by the 'god of this world' that man can read that scripture 10,000 times....

AND NEVER SEE IT, because GOD WON'T LET THEM.

I hope at a minimum you sense a little of my own GRIEF.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[bleitzel]

Wow.

Smaller, the lump of clay represents God's creative ability. In Genesis it talks about God speaking things into existence. It's the same idea, that God can take any human and make him how He wants. It has nothing to do with devils and Satan. You're reading that into the text. Where do you get that from? Does somebody teach it? I'd love to know.

 

[savedbygrace57]

smaller:

With that view you are standing square on Gnostic heresy.

Whatever, you are in error.

 

[smaller]

smaller:

Whatever, you are in error.

Perhaps you should take the time to try and find a quote in the Bible that says:

THE FLESH IS EVIL before slinging the error mud.

 

[smaller]

Wow.

Smaller, the lump of clay represents God's creative ability. In Genesis it talks about God speaking things into existence. It's the same idea, that God can take any human and make him how He wants. It has nothing to do with devils and Satan. You're reading that into the text. Where do you get that from? Does somebody teach it? I'd love to know.

Your position is what I term the standard of what goes through the mind of a believer when they read that text. They instantly say within themselves, I AM A VESSEL OF HONOUR and 'the other guy' who does not believe like me is the VESSEL OF DESTRUCTION.

Paul was clear. The LUMP is the BODY OF ME. Not me and the other guy. Within that LUMP of 'me' there are in fact TWO vessels. Now read my post again and see if you can figure out if that fact applies to you?

If not, I'd suggest that God has raised the other vessel OVER your mind and there is nothing any man can do about that.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[savedbygrace57]

Perhaps you should take the time to try and find a quote in the Bible that says:

THE FLESH IS EVIL before slinging the error mud.

You are in error, I have showed you already, Plus you are under God's Judgment to believe that foolishness of yours.

 

[smaller]

You are in error, I have showed you already, Plus you are under God's Judgment to believe that foolishness of yours.

Uh, sorry. Evil flesh is gnostic HERESY.

And 'foolishness' you refer to is the scriptural fact that ALL have sin and sin is of the devil. Vessels of DISHONOUR really hate to hear this matter, don't they?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Uh, sorry. Evil flesh is gnostic HERESY.

And 'foolishness' you refer to is the scriptural fact that ALL have sin and sin is of the devil. Vessels of DISHONOUR really hate to hear this matter, don't they?

You are deceived and under the Judgment of God !

 

[smaller]

You are deceived and under the Judgment of God !

We certainly don't want to discuss the centuries held FACT of ALL ORTHODOXY including your own 'sect' that EVIL FLESH is a heresy do we?

Oh well. Your vessel of honour has my pity.

 

[savedbygrace57]

We certainly don't want to discuss the centuries held FACT of ALL ORTHODOXY including your own 'sect' that EVIL FLESH is a heresy do we?

Oh well. Your vessel of honour has my pity.

I cant help you !

You are deceived and under the Judgment of God !

 

[Drew]

Sorry about the fonts - computer stuff is clearly beyond me....

With that view you are standing square on Gnostic heresy. Sorry. Evil 'material' matter (such as FLESH) was debunked centuries ago by many very fine christian theologians. The initial problem with that view is that it makes the flesh of Jesus EVIL, which of course was not and is not possible.

Agree.

So there are your TWO VESSELS in PAUL, clearly seen and shown by Paul. Israel had the same problem.

I disagree. You appear to be arguing thus:

1. Paul had an evil power or spirit within him.
2. Therefore, the vessels of destruction in Romans 9 has to denote that vessel.

Point (1) may be true, but point (2) does not follow from point (1). Why? Because it is clear that, in Romans 9, Paul is not even engaged in an inner analysis of his own state, let alone a treatment of humanity in general. No. In Romans 9, he is talking about Israel and their sad state.

From the beginning of the chapter:

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel.

....and from the end of the chapter:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame

Your take on what the "vessels of destruction" are has the following problem: It has Paul opening his chapter with an articulation of the Israel problem, concluding the chapter with a statement that suggests that he has just explained what has happened to Israel, yet with the heart of the chapter having no Israel-specificity whatsoever.

My take on the vessels has Paul doing something much more logical:

1. Telling us the the problem - Israel is lost;
2. Explaining that the reason for this is that God hardened her (like a vessel of destruction);
3. Wrapping up with a re-statement of this same concept of hardening of Israel - the laying of a stumbling stone in, yes, Zion.

 

[Drew]

Do you bother to actually read the scriptures presented in these matters? Seriously!

Considering the force of the actual arguments, you are hardly in a position to make this dismissive suggestion. Your position is being shown to be highly questionable, the textual evidence supports the view that the vessels of destruction are hardened Jews, and yet somehow I am the one who is not reading the scriptures?

2 Cor. 12:7 states that Paul, yes PAUL THE APOSTLE had a DEVIL put upon him BY GOD!

Well, we are not talking about Colossians 12, are we? No, we are talking about Romans 9. You seem to insist on repeating this demonstrably erroneous approach to exegesis - importing material from other letters to establish a context that is favourable to your position, while glossing over the evidence that the context of Romans 9 - where the vessels of destruction are actually mentioned - supports the view that these vessels are hardened Jews.

 

[Drew]

Your view has so many holes in it they cannot be counted. I've cited just a few.

The number of "holes" you have cited in my position is zero.

I doubt you've bothered to even TRY to understand an alternative other than your own. One never learns A THING until they consider ALTERNATIVES.

Speculation for which you have, again, no evidence at all. The fact of the matter is that I have presented numerous items of evidence to support a reading where the vessels of destruction are hardened Jews. And your only argument is to import other contexts and ignore the stated problem in Romans 9 - the Israel problem to make a case about what the vessels of destruction are.

So I suggest your position is in dire need of some actual arguments. Unless and until you support your position with solid arguments, and show us where the errors in my arguments are, you should probably put speculations about my open-mindedness on the back-burner.

 

[Drew]

More evidence that the "vessels fitted for destruction" are unbelieving Jews..

Chapters 9 to 11 is largely Paul's answer to the question "If God has this new covenant family constituted by Jews and Gentiles, and if most Jews have rejected Jesus, and if the covenant promises were really made to Jews, has God really been faithful to his covenant since most Jews are out in the cold?"

Paul anticipates that the reader will be puzzled that most Jews - to whom the covenant promises were made after all - are now on the "outside", since they have rejected their Messiah. So chapters 9 to 11 addresses the "What is going on with Isreal?" question.

And, of course, we get the "vessels fitted for destruction" stuff in the middle of Romans 9.

A number of obvious parallels are drawn between Jesus (Romans 5) and Israel (Romans 11). These parallels make it clear that Paul intends the reader to see the Jews as the "vessels fitted for destruction"

Note what Paul says in Romans 11:

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

And now lets go back to Romans 5:

10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ

Note the following parallels:

1. In 5:10-11, we have the death and resurrection of Jesus described as reconciling us to God. And the exact same language is used in 11:15, where it is Israelthat brings reconciliation to the world.

2. In 5:15, Paul says Christ's death benefits the many. In 11:12, he uses similar language in respect to Israel, declaring that the transgression of Israel brings riches to the world. And likewise in 11:11, he refers to Israel's role in bringing salvation to the Gentiles (thus effectively benefiting "the many").

3. In 5:17, Paul says that, through the work of Jesus, we move from death to life. In 11:15, Paul says that the conversion of Jews effectively involves a transition from death to life.

Clearly, Paul sees Israel as acting out the Christ pattern. We always say that Jesus was "made sin" or made to be a "vessel where the sins of the world are laid". But Paul is saying the same thing about Israelin chapter 11!! I am not making this up, people.

What is Paul thinking? Obviously Paul sees Israelites as - you guessed it - vessels fitted for destruction - they are "full of transgressions" and therefore, like Jesus who carries the sins of the world, they are the vessels that will "contain" the sin that is the true target of God's wrath. Remember, God condemns sin on the cross, not Jesus.

And, of course, Israel is spared the destruction that they are "fitted for". Her faithful Messiah Jesus, acting in fidelity with the Abrahamic covenant take on Israel's destiny. And it is Jesus who bears the awful stroke of God's wrath, vented against the sin "in His flesh".

 

[bleitzel]

Well, Drew, looks like this discussion has bogged down. I'm signing off for this thread. See ya round!

 

[Sinthesis]

On the view that I am putting forward, the time of God hardening the nation of Israel (or most of them, anyway) came to an end 2000 years ago. So, on my view, there is no Biblical evidence that God is, in any sense, hardening Jews now any more than He is hardening Norwegians, or people with big noses.

My argument is this: the "hardening" of the Jews was a necessary and vital "set-up" activity for the cross. With the victory on the cross achieved, God no longer needs to harden Jews.

To defuse some of the antagonism to your study you should consider repeatedly reposting your above comments.

 

[MarkT]

How do you defend this broad statement Biblically? How do you know that the Law of Moses cannot be a means of hardening? This statement "the law has nothing to do with understanding and belief" is quite the statement - can you defend it Biblically?

You’re saying the law has something to do with hardening the heart. If I disagree, it doesn’t mean I have something to defend. I could say what Paul said, for example, ‘God hardens the heart‘. Did God harden Pharaoh’s heart by giving him the law? No. Pharaoh’s heart was not hardened by receiving the law of Moses. I could argue that the hardened heart is disobedient. The hardened heart is unrepentant. The hardened heart does not believe. The hardened heart does not understand. Incline your heart to understanding - Proverbs 2 The law is the word of God. The word falls on the heart. The word is stored in the heart. The law is holy and just and good. Did that which is good harden Israel? No. Likewise the law we received from Christ is the word of God. Does the law of Christ harden our heart? No.

The Israelites were entrusted with the law; they were told not to make idols, for example, and they made idols. Did the law cause them to make idols? And the Jews who did not believe Christ, were they hardened by the law, or did they reject Jesus because with them the words of the prophet Isaiah were fulfilled? "'You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. 15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them." It was God’s will that they should not perceive or understand Jesus. Jesus said to the disciples, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of heaven, but to them it has not been given.”

The heart has to do with understanding and belief. “And being aware of it, Jesus said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened?” Mark 8:17 RSV Jesus didn’t say anything about the law hardening their hearts, only, “Do you not yet perceive or understand. Are your hearts hardened?”

And Paul said,
For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. Romans 10:10 RSV

Again, nothing about the law hardening the heart.

As far as I know the law doesn’t harden the heart. The law brings wrath. The knowledge of sin comes through the law.

The connection between the heart and belief and understanding have been established. The truth that God has mercy on whom he has mercy is established. But the connection between the law of Moses and a hard heart has not been established.

This is not an argument - it is a statement that needs to be justified. Yes, Paul is talking about all the ungodly in Romans 1:18-32. But its quite a leap to connect the vessels of destruction to these people. Can you defend this? That would be a tall order because, as I am sure you know, Romans 9 is specifically a treatment of the nation of Israel. So why is Paul suddenly veering off into a treatment of vessels of destruction that has no Israel - specificity?

How is it a leap? It's the same letter. It's the same person writing the letter. Is it because Ro. 9 is further from Ro. 2 than Ro. 8 that you think it's quite a leap? Too many pages to turn? Is that what you mean by quite a leap? Paul is writing to all God’s beloved in Rome.

The Gentiles are included in Romans 9 and Romans 9 is about election. He writes, "he endures the vessels of wrath to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy - even us whom he has called not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles.

So if the saints are the vessels of mercy, then who are the vessels of wrath? You say the Jew. But according to Paul it is all those who suppress the truth. The gospel is the power of God for everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. It’s not a leap to say the vessels of wrath are those men who exchanged the truth about God for a lie.

Did God fill only the Jews with wrath? The early Church was persecuted by a lot of people including the Jews. The Romans threw them to the lions.

Can't you admit the possibility that Paul is talking about the ungodly and maybe Romans 9 is talking about election? You said something about the sorry state of Israel. What do you mean by that? Are you talking about Paul's concern for his countrymen; that he wishes they would all be saved? But then he says, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel", to explain why some will be saved and some will not, and then he talks about God's purpose of election, and God's will. He even quotes Isaiah who says, “ Though the sons of Israel be as the sands of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved” Ro. 9:27

 

[MarkT]

Drew
On the view that I am putting forward, the time of God hardening the nation of Israel (or most of them, anyway) came to an end 2000 years ago. So, on my view, there is no Biblical evidence that God is, in any sense, hardening Jews now any more than He is hardening Norwegians, or people with big noses.

My argument is this: the "hardening" of the Jews was a necessary and vital "set-up" activity for the cross. With the victory on the cross achieved, God no longer needs to harden Jews.

To defuse some of the antagonism to your study you should consider repeatedly reposting your above comments.

Romans 11:25 RSV
Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,

Did the fulll number of the Gentiles come in 2000 years ago? No. So that's false.

 

[smaller]

The number of "holes" you have cited in my position is zero.

heh heh. You put your own holes in the position when admitting that God also hardened Gentiles, but that means JEWS ONLY.

Speculation for which you have, again, no evidence at all. The fact of the matter is that I have presented numerous items of evidence to support a reading where the vessels of destruction are hardened Jews. And your only argument is to import other contexts and ignore the stated problem in Romans 9 - the Israel problem to make a case about what the vessels of destruction are.

So I suggest your position is in dire need of some actual arguments. Unless and until you support your position with solid arguments, and show us where the errors in my arguments are, you should probably put speculations about my open-mindedness on the back-burner.

My position? Actual arguments?

You didn't even know Paul had a devil put upon him POST salvation, BY GOD no less. I don't expect much interchange with that level of textual experience. Sorry.

s

 

[MarkT]

With that view you are standing square on Gnostic heresy. Sorry. Evil 'material' matter (such as FLESH) was debunked centuries ago by many very fine christian theologians. The initial problem with that view is that it makes the flesh of Jesus EVIL, which of course was not and is not possible.

And yes, Paul did have EVIL PRESENT with him, that he termed NO LONGER I. Paul also had A DEVIL. (yeah, look it up, 2 Cor. 12:7) Paul also had the presence of indwelling sin, the works of which are OF THE DEVIL.

So there are your TWO VESSELS in PAUL, clearly seen and shown by Paul. Israel had the same problem. Their OTHER VESSEL was the SPIRIT OF SLUMBER that was PUT upon them by God no less. There is the OTHER VESSEL. Israel as it pertains to unbelieving JEWS can NOT, I repeat CAN NOT be the 'vessels of DISHONOUR' because scripture TEACHES us they are ALL GODS CHILDREN.

And as to your statement that the FLESH is not subject to GOD (or HIS WORDS, Law for example) you may be reminded of this fact:

John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh,

Paul taught in 1 Cor. 15 pertaining to the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD WE are ALL planted in WEAKNESS, CORRUPTION and DISHONOUR.

Pretty hard NOT to have A VESSEL OF DISHONOUR when we are in fact PLANTED or SOWN in SAME.

IF we don't, then MAYBE the RESURRECTION will not apply to such NON havers?
s

Generally a thorn represents a false teacher. Perhaps a false teacher was given to Paul to harass him. I say that because Paul calls it a messenger of Satan. There's another reason to think Paul was being harassed by a false teacher. It's what Paul said earlier; he said he would continue to preach the gospel at no cost to undermine the false apostles who, he said, were servants of Satan disguised as servants of righteousness. 2 Cor. 11:12-15

After saying that, he said he besought the Lord about it, that it should leave him.

But it could be Paul is saying he was suffering from some physical problem that made him weak or some desire of the flesh that wouldn't leave him. But then again he says, 'for the sake of Christ, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities.' Certainly Paul suffered alot.

Let's suppose Paul recognized that he was not perfect in some way. This thorn kept reminding him that he was weak. It kept him from being too elated by the abundance of revelations.

Anyways there's nothing there about two vessels in Paul.