Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Bible Study Vicarious Law-Keeping?

netchaplain

Member
Romans 10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law unto righteousness to everyone that believeth.†There has been much discussion of the meaning of the word "end" here. Let us see if Scripture does not clear up the matter for us. When Christ died, He bore for Israel the curse of the Law, for they, and they alone, were under Law. Divine Law, being broken, does not ask for future good conduct on the part of the transgressor; but for his death,--and that only. Now Christ having died, all the claims of the Law against that nation which had been placed under law were completely met and ended. So that even Jews could now believe, and say, "I am dead to the Law!"

To him that believes, therefore, Jew or Gentile, Christ, dead, buried, and risen, is the end of law for righteousness,--in the sense of law's disappearance from the scene! Law does not know, or take cognizance of believers! We read in Chapter Seven (verse 6) that those who had been under the Law were discharged from the Law, brought to nought, put out of business (katargeo), with respect to the Law! The Law has nothing to do with them, as regards righteousness.

The Scripture must be obeyed with the obedience of belief: "Ye are not under law [not under that principle] but under grace" [the contrary principle]. "Ye are brought to nothing from Christ [literally, "put out of business from Christ"], ye who would be justified by the Law; ye are fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:4). Paul writes in Hebrews 7:18, 19: "There is a disannulling of a foregoing commandment, because of its weakness and unprofitableness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope, through which we draw near unto God." Again, "Christ abolished in His flesh the enmity [between Jew and Gentile], even the Law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph. 2:15); again, speaking as a Hebrew believer, Paul says, "Christ blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and He hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross" (Col 2:14).

If these Scriptures do not set forth a complete closing up of any believer's account toward the Law, or to the whole legal principle, I know nothing of the meaning of words.

The words Christ is the end of the Law, cannot mean Christ is the "fulfillment of what the law required." The Law required obedience to precepts--or death for disobedience. Now Christ died! If it be answered, that before He died He fulfilled the claims of the Law, kept it perfectly, and that this law-keeping of Christ was reckoned as over against the Israelite's breaking of the Law, then I ask, Why should Christ die? If the claims of the Law were met in Christ's earthly obedience, and if that earthly life of obedience is "reckoned to those who believe" the curse of the Law has been removed by "vicarious law-keeping." Why should Christ die?

Now this idea of Christ keeping the Law for "us" (for they will include us among the Israelites! although the Law was not given to us Gentiles), is a deadly heresy, no matter who teaches it. Paul tells us plainly how the curse of the Law was removed: "Christ redeemed us,†(meaning Jewish believers), "from the curse of the Law, having become a curse, is seen in Deuteronomy 21:23: "He that is hanged is accursed of God." It was on the cross, not by an "earthly life of obedience,†that Christ bore the Law's curse.

There was no law given "which could make alive,†Paul says; "otherwise righteousness would have been by it." Therefore those who speak of Christ as taking the place of fulfilling the Law for us,--as "the object at which the Law aimed" (Alford); or, "the fulfillment or accomplishment of the Law" (Calvin); give the Law an office that God did not give it. There is not in all Scripture a hint of the doctrine that Christ's earthly life--His obedience as a man under the [Mosaic] Law, is "put to the account" of any sinner whatsoever! That obedience, which was perfect, was in order that He might "present Himself through the eternal Spirit without spot unto God,†as a sin-offering. It also was in order to His sacrificial death, as "a curse," that Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3). William R. Newell, Romans, Verse by Verse
 
Christ fulfills the law through us when we are fully crucified and surrendered to be an abode for Him.

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
Romans 10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law unto righteousness to everyone that believeth.†There has been much discussion of the meaning of the word "end" here. Let us see if Scripture does not clear up the matter for us. When Christ died, He bore for Israel the curse of the Law, for they, and they alone, were under Law. Divine Law, being broken, does not ask for future good conduct on the part of the transgressor; but for his death,--and that only. Now Christ having died, all the claims of the Law against that nation which had been placed under law were completely met and ended. So that even Jews could now believe, and say, "I am dead to the Law!"

To him that believes, therefore, Jew or Gentile, Christ, dead, buried, and risen, is the end of law for righteousness,--in the sense of law's disappearance from the scene! Law does not know, or take cognizance of believers! We read in Chapter Seven (verse 6) that those who had been under the Law were discharged from the Law, brought to nought, put out of business (katargeo), with respect to the Law! The Law has nothing to do with them, as regards righteousness.

The Scripture must be obeyed with the obedience of belief: "Ye are not under law [not under that principle] but under grace" [the contrary principle]. "Ye are brought to nothing from Christ [literally, "put out of business from Christ"], ye who would be justified by the Law; ye are fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:4). Paul writes in Hebrews 7:18, 19: "There is a disannulling of a foregoing commandment, because of its weakness and unprofitableness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope, through which we draw near unto God." Again, "Christ abolished in His flesh the enmity [between Jew and Gentile], even the Law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph. 2:15); again, speaking as a Hebrew believer, Paul says, "Christ blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and He hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross" (Col 2:14).

If these Scriptures do not set forth a complete closing up of any believer's account toward the Law, or to the whole legal principle, I know nothing of the meaning of words.

The words Christ is the end of the Law, cannot mean Christ is the "fulfillment of what the law required." The Law required obedience to precepts--or death for disobedience. Now Christ died! If it be answered, that before He died He fulfilled the claims of the Law, kept it perfectly, and that this law-keeping of Christ was reckoned as over against the Israelite's breaking of the Law, then I ask, Why should Christ die? If the claims of the Law were met in Christ's earthly obedience, and if that earthly life of obedience is "reckoned to those who believe" the curse of the Law has been removed by "vicarious law-keeping." Why should Christ die?

Now this idea of Christ keeping the Law for "us" (for they will include us among the Israelites! although the Law was not given to us Gentiles), is a deadly heresy, no matter who teaches it. Paul tells us plainly how the curse of the Law was removed: "Christ redeemed us,†(meaning Jewish believers), "from the curse of the Law, having become a curse, is seen in Deuteronomy 21:23: "He that is hanged is accursed of God." It was on the cross, not by an "earthly life of obedience,†that Christ bore the Law's curse.

There was no law given "which could make alive,†Paul says; "otherwise righteousness would have been by it." Therefore those who speak of Christ as taking the place of fulfilling the Law for us,--as "the object at which the Law aimed" (Alford); or, "the fulfillment or accomplishment of the Law" (Calvin); give the Law an office that God did not give it. There is not in all Scripture a hint of the doctrine that Christ's earthly life--His obedience as a man under the [Mosaic] Law, is "put to the account" of any sinner whatsoever! That obedience, which was perfect, was in order that He might "present Himself through the eternal Spirit without spot unto God,†as a sin-offering. It also was in order to His sacrificial death, as "a curse," that Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3). William R. Newell, Romans, Verse by Verse

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Me thinks thou must return to the drawing board. Because Heb. 7:12 clearly states that a change was made to the law and that change was made upon Jesus' ascension after his crucifixion. And Paul's statement of Rom. 2:13, was made after both of the factual events of Jesus' crucifixion and ascension. Perhaps there might have been some "vicarious law keeping" of some sort done by somebody, but it wasn't Jesus Christ who did that.
 
"but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 "Perhaps there might have been some "vicarious law keeping" of some sort done by somebody, but it wasn't Jesus Christ who did that.

Hi T.A.J. - Thanks for your reply and God's blessings to your Family!

The article agrees that Jesus did not keep the Law for anyone but to qualify Him to be the sole sacrifice acceptable to the Father. No man but Christ ever keep the Law, because it meant you could never break any of it--"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Jam 2:10).

The purpose of the Law wasn't to make Israel right with God, but to confirm that only through what the law pointed to--Christ, could anyone be right with Him; which now the Covenant is Grace.
 
Hi T.A.J. - Thanks for your reply and God's blessings to your Family!

The article agrees that Jesus did not keep the Law for anyone but to qualify Him to be the sole sacrifice acceptable to the Father. No man but Christ ever keep the Law, because it meant you could never break any of it--"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Jam 2:10).

The purpose of the Law wasn't to make Israel right with God, but to confirm that only through what the law pointed to--Christ, could anyone be right with Him; which now the Covenant is Grace.

Like I said. You need to go back to the drawing board. Nobody gets into God's kingdom until he willingly obeys a law that has been added to the law after Jesus was crucified.
 
"Christ fulfills the law through us"
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Hi Adullam - Thanks for your reply and God's blessings to your Family!

Not to be contentious but I believe the Law was fulfilled through Christ only, not us.

It is the "righteousness" from the Law, and not the Law itself which is fulfilled; not by us but "in us", and this by Christ, not ourselves.

This means we have no self-justification or self-righteousness because it must be "made unto us" by the Father--through Christ. "But of Him (Father) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption" (1 Cor 1:30).
 
"Nobody gets into God's kingdom until he willingly obeys a law"

I agree; and no one's willingness to obey is acceptable without Christ's work and obedience; it's His obedience and work that gets us in, not ours because it has to be perfect and only His are perfect.

I believe it's more our willfulness than our imperfect obedience that's acceptable, because this is what derives from God. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

Hope this doesn't seem like I'm arguing with you, which is not my intention.
 
Like I said. You need to go back to the drawing board. Nobody gets into God's kingdom until he willingly obeys a law that has been added to the law after Jesus was crucified.

I have seen you bring this issue up several times now? As one who has entered into the "new" law, if you have? Why not inform us how you did that? :chin
I think maybe you are trying to speak of things that you know little about?:eeeekkk

This is what I know, God would not allow you to come into "liberty" unless He had first given you the desire to bring others in as well. I see no desire in you to set anyone free, but seem only to hinder those of us who would! I doubt very seriously you have any idea of "liberty" or the Laws that are revealed by the Holy Spirit!
 
John 13:34,15:12, 1 John 4:21: 1John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. NKJV

First, I suspect this was intended to mean other Christians. But Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan when asked whom their brothers were
.
We must have the power of the Holy Spirit to love one another. Some people are easy to love and some, uh, we would like to cream according to our old nature. But the Spirit of God in us can see the unlovable people through God's eyes. They are lost, miserable, and God loves them so much that Jesus died for them. Of course, there are some people that are dangerous and we don't have to be stupid about it all. Paul warned the disciples about Alexander the Coppersmith who had done him much harm. We don't have to trust all people. But we should forgive them and care about them.

I always think of Fiddler on the Roof: God bless and keep the czar----far away from here!
 
John 13:34,15:12, 1 John 4:21: 1John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. NKJV

First, I suspect this was intended to mean other Christians. But Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan when asked whom their brothers were
.
We must have the power of the Holy Spirit to love one another. Some people are easy to love and some, uh, we would like to cream according to our old nature. But the Spirit of God in us can see the unlovable people through God's eyes. They are lost, miserable, and God loves them so much that Jesus died for them. Of course, there are some people that are dangerous and we don't have to be stupid about it all. Paul warned the disciples about Alexander the Coppersmith who had done him much harm. We don't have to trust all people. But we should forgive them and care about them.

I always think of Fiddler on the Roof: God bless and keep the czar----far away from here!

2Jn 1:9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 
John 13:34,15:12, 1 John 4:21: 1John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. NKJV

First, I suspect this was intended to mean other Christians. But Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan when asked whom their brothers were
.
We must have the power of the Holy Spirit to love one another. Some people are easy to love and some, uh, we would like to cream according to our old nature. But the Spirit of God in us can see the unlovable people through God's eyes. They are lost, miserable, and God loves them so much that Jesus died for them. Of course, there are some people that are dangerous and we don't have to be stupid about it all. Paul warned the disciples about Alexander the Coppersmith who had done him much harm. We don't have to trust all people. But we should forgive them and care about them.

I always think of Fiddler on the Roof: God bless and keep the czar----far away from here!

No person has nor will "love" themselves into God's kingdom. Just as natural birth has the co-joined kicking and screamming at the process of those that are forced to use it the Way for becoming born again of God is also kicked and screemed againist by those who make the attempt to love ther way into God's kingdom.
 
Hi Adullam - Thanks for your reply and God's blessings to your Family!

Not to be contentious but I believe the Law was fulfilled through Christ only, not us.

It is the "righteousness" from the Law, and not the Law itself which is fulfilled; not by us but "in us", and this by Christ, not ourselves.

This means we have no self-justification or self-righteousness because it must be "made unto us" by the Father--through Christ. "But of Him (Father) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption" (1 Cor 1:30).

You have a right to disagree with the bible...everyone has an opinion. But you should not be teaching things that go contrary to the bible. That should be evident.

We also have no self-justification when Christ is fulfilling the law through us as THE BIBLE STATES.

No longer the believer but Christ living in him....He is fulfilling the law through us as we partake of His grace to do so. That is the power of the gospel. Otherwise you are merely preaching a info statement that changes nothing in the believer or the world....

That is why the church is dead today...a lack of power according to the truth.
 
You have a right to disagree with the bible...everyone has an opinion. But you should not be teaching things that go contrary to the bible. That should be evident.

We also have no self-justification when Christ is fulfilling the law through us as THE BIBLE STATES.

No longer the believer but Christ living in him....He is fulfilling the law through us as we partake of His grace to do so. That is the power of the gospel. Otherwise you are merely preaching a info statement that changes nothing in the believer or the world....

That is why the church is dead today...a lack of power according to the truth.
We keep the "righteous requirments" of the law, by faith and knowing Him who wrote the law.Not by looking to the law but to the "spirit"! The Chaplain has never went contrary to the sciptures in any post I have read of his. Now it could be he is speaking on a "Spiritual level" that some of you do not yet understand? If you listen and ask questions in an honest way, you may also become "spiritual":)
 
We also have no self-justification when Christ is fulfilling the law through us as THE BIBLE STATES.

No longer the believer but Christ living in him....He is fulfilling the law through us

Adillam, my co-laborer in Christ, I like what you posted here, esp. the second line, but I want to share something which I found to be useful concerning Rom 8:4 (NKJ) which reads, "that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us".

One may ask what is the requirement of the Law? The requirement of the Law is death for disobedience, "For the soul that sins shall die". It is this death-curse Christ bore which fulfilled the requirement of the Law; and through our identification with Him in His crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection and ascension Christ fulfills the requirement of death "in us".

Another may ask, as the article shows, "Why did Christ die, since He never disobeyed the Law at any point?" His obedience was to qualify Him as the perfect Lamb sacrifice, shown in type within the Law. His obedience was for qualification to be the sacrifice for breaking the curse--by bearing it for us.

The confusion can come from not knowing that He did not attribute His obedience to us for redemption, because our identification with Him in His death and resurrection delivered us.

I apologize if this complicates anything.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
so when we live and move in christ we dont often find ourselves fleeing idolatary? adultery? lying,? and loving our enemies, helping the poor.
the torah has all this in it and jesus quoted it. moses instructed that you must return thine enemies ass to him if its astray.

show me where in the torah or the tanach we were told to hate thine enemy? remember the enemies of isreal were physical but also representive of the devil and enemy of christ.
 
so when we live and move in christ we dont often find ourselves fleeing idolatary? adultery? lying,? and loving our enemies, helping the poor.

the torah has all this in it and jesus quoted it. moses instructed that you must return thine enemies ass to him if its astray.

show me where in the torah or the tanach we were told to hate thine enemy? remember the enemies of isreal were physical but also representive of the devil and enemy of christ.

Hi JC and God's blessings to your Family! I'm not sure what you're trying to share and wanted you to know that I would like to understand your intention.

Your last comment has the appearance (but I've not accepted it as such; just not sure) of concluding that the article is accusing you of hating the enemy.

Blessed Be God
 
no, the torah has NO VERSE where it say thou shall hate thy enemy. that is a teaching if its there show me. contrary to most christians jesus didnt change his view on sin and also how we are to deal with the sinner much.

he just stopped using isreal to judge the nations around them locally and went to use the gentile/jew church to deal with the world. something that isreal was supposed to do.
 
Jasoncran - You still misunderstand me. I'm not claiming the Torah says thou shall hate thy enemy. Sorry about the confusion. God's blessings to you.
 
Greetings Chaplain and Mrs. Chaplain, too. It's good to hear from you.

If I may, I would like to share how I finally got a fairly clear picture on this subject.
I received a teaching that was dramatized a little. I will try to describe it.

In the OT when a sin offering was brought to the priest the priest would not look at the person who had brought the offering. He would inspect the offering, lets say a lamb, for any spot or blemish. If it was found to be acceptable the person who had sinned and brought the offering would place their hand on the head of the lamb. By doing this the sin was placed on the lamb. Then the lamb was sacrificed in the place of the person who had sinned. They were then forgiven.

So the lamb was found acceptable, the sin was transfered, so therefore to fulfill the penalty prescribed by the law, the lamb had to die.

It was kind of like a light bulb went on. I knew before but it just wasn't the same.

Thank you for sharing, God Bless
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Romans 10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law unto righteousness to everyone that believeth.†There has been much discussion of the meaning of the word "end" here. Let us see if Scripture does not clear up the matter for us. When Christ died, He bore for Israel the curse of the Law, for they, and they alone, were under Law. Divine Law, being broken, does not ask for future good conduct on the part of the transgressor; but for his death,--and that only. Now Christ having died, all the claims of the Law against that nation which had been placed under law were completely met and ended. So that even Jews could now believe, and say, "I am dead to the Law!"

To him that believes, therefore, Jew or Gentile, Christ, dead, buried, and risen, is the end of law for righteousness,--in the sense of law's disappearance from the scene! Law does not know, or take cognizance of believers! We read in Chapter Seven (verse 6) that those who had been under the Law were discharged from the Law, brought to nought, put out of business (katargeo), with respect to the Law! The Law has nothing to do with them, as regards righteousness.

The Scripture must be obeyed with the obedience of belief: "Ye are not under law [not under that principle] but under grace" [the contrary principle]. "Ye are brought to nothing from Christ [literally, "put out of business from Christ"], ye who would be justified by the Law; ye are fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:4). Paul writes in Hebrews 7:18, 19: "There is a disannulling of a foregoing commandment, because of its weakness and unprofitableness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope, through which we draw near unto God." Again, "Christ abolished in His flesh the enmity [between Jew and Gentile], even the Law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph. 2:15); again, speaking as a Hebrew believer, Paul says, "Christ blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and He hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross" (Col 2:14).

If these Scriptures do not set forth a complete closing up of any believer's account toward the Law, or to the whole legal principle, I know nothing of the meaning of words.

The words Christ is the end of the Law, cannot mean Christ is the "fulfillment of what the law required." The Law required obedience to precepts--or death for disobedience. Now Christ died! If it be answered, that before He died He fulfilled the claims of the Law, kept it perfectly, and that this law-keeping of Christ was reckoned as over against the Israelite's breaking of the Law, then I ask, Why should Christ die? If the claims of the Law were met in Christ's earthly obedience, and if that earthly life of obedience is "reckoned to those who believe" the curse of the Law has been removed by "vicarious law-keeping." Why should Christ die?

Now this idea of Christ keeping the Law for "us" (for they will include us among the Israelites! although the Law was not given to us Gentiles), is a deadly heresy, no matter who teaches it. Paul tells us plainly how the curse of the Law was removed: "Christ redeemed us,†(meaning Jewish believers), "from the curse of the Law, having become a curse, is seen in Deuteronomy 21:23: "He that is hanged is accursed of God." It was on the cross, not by an "earthly life of obedience,†that Christ bore the Law's curse.

There was no law given "which could make alive,†Paul says; "otherwise righteousness would have been by it." Therefore those who speak of Christ as taking the place of fulfilling the Law for us,--as "the object at which the Law aimed" (Alford); or, "the fulfillment or accomplishment of the Law" (Calvin); give the Law an office that God did not give it. There is not in all Scripture a hint of the doctrine that Christ's earthly life--His obedience as a man under the [Mosaic] Law, is "put to the account" of any sinner whatsoever! That obedience, which was perfect, was in order that He might "present Himself through the eternal Spirit without spot unto God,†as a sin-offering. It also was in order to His sacrificial death, as "a curse," that Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3). William R. Newell, Romans, Verse by Verse

Question??
What is meant by this statement please.

"There is not in all Scripture a hint of the doctrine that Christ's earthly life--His obedience as a man under the [Mosaic] Law, is "put to the account" of any sinner whatsoever!"
 
Back
Top