Shimshon
Member
And to think this was given to us PRO bono!
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Was Christ created according to Proverbs 8:30?
- Thread starter jonahmano
- Start date
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!
Jehovah Witnesses. They told us that we want to make known the whole world that Jesus Christ is going to rein on this earth and I told her that we know that very well. there was heated exchanges between my wife and them but I was cool, I just wanted to share what God has done in my life and my belief in Christ Jesus was not on intellectual basis.
While disagreeing with the tenets of their faith I admire their commitment to their denomination and to evangelizing the vision they understand of Christ.
I've seen the testimony of ex-Witnesses and Mormons and they suggest that you not confront these people but to instead form personal relationships with them as fellow Christians. They are trained with selective verses and have selective answers for people who rebuke their understanding of Scripture.
Conversation can soon become a brouhaha with resulting animosity on both sides and a lifelong possibility of crushed faith in Christ.
The majority in our area are young college age boys. They know and can find online long explanations of how different their beliefs are from mainline Christianity.
Witnesses and Mormons are required to evangelize if they are to advance in the church and develop into a higher spirit.
I've seen the testimony of ex-Witnesses and Mormons and they suggest that you not confront these people but to instead form personal relationships with them as fellow Christians. They are trained with selective verses and have selective answers for people who rebuke their understanding of Scripture.
Conversation can soon become a brouhaha with resulting animosity on both sides and a lifelong possibility of crushed faith in Christ.
The majority in our area are young college age boys. They know and can find online long explanations of how different their beliefs are from mainline Christianity.
Witnesses and Mormons are required to evangelize if they are to advance in the church and develop into a higher spirit.
ah the pioneers and the other guys. was this on a Saturday? that is when they tend to do this.
Butch5
Member
It means just what it says. The idea that the Son existed as a separate entity from all eternity is not what was taught in the Christian faith until the around 400's or 500's AD.
The early Christians believed just as proverbs says. The Scripture too agree with this understanding. In John 8 Jesus said,
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Joh 8:42 KJV)
Jesus used the Greek word "ek" which means to come out of. Jesus literally said that He came out of God. This lines up with Psalm 2 where David prophesied the words of Christ.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. (Psa 2:7-8 KJV)
In this passage we see the Son being begotten of the Father. In John 8 Jesus said, I came out of God, it's the same thing. This is the early Christian understanding of it also. Consider the Nicene Creed, here are the first two lines.
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
They understood that the Son was begotten before the creation. Here is a quote from Ignatius, who was a disciple of the apostle John.
The cross of Christ is indeed a stumbling-block to those that do not believe, but to the believing it is salvation and life eternal. “Where is the wise man? where the disputer?” Where is the boasting of those who are called mighty? For the Son of God, who was begotten before time began, and established all things according to the will of the Father, He was conceived in the womb of Mary, according to the appointment of God, of the seed of David, and by the Holy Ghost. For says [the Scripture], “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and He shall be called Immanuel.” He was born and was baptized by John, that He might ratify the institution committed to that prophet.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Can't we take it this way. It was Jesus the human who was begotten by the Father and not Christ the God?
Butch5
Member
I think that's how it is understood by many who hold the modern view of the Trinity. My point is that that is not the original Christian faith. The teaching of the faith, and I believe the Scriptures, is that the Son was begotten by the Father before creation. Michah 5:2 says,
YLT Micah 5:2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth -- to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth are of old, From the days of antiquity. (Mic 5:2 YLT)
The words, coming forth, are the Greek word "arkhay" it means origin or beginning. The passage suggests that the one who would be ruler over Israel had an origin from of old. The idea that Christ has existed as the second person of the Trinity for all eternity is not really the Christian faith as it was not what was taught in the beginning by the apostles, or actually, by the Scriptures. I know this surprises people but it is what was originally taught as can be seen by simply looking at the earliest teachings of the faith.
I would also submit that Jesus is the Christ, the Christ is not a separate entity. The man Jesus is the Christ, the anointed king of God
19DuggarFan
Member
Only small problem with this is Micah was written in Hebrew not Greek while some of the OT was written in Aramaic most was written in Hebrew, so it is real hard to check the Greek on something that was originally written in Hebrew. But thanks Butch5, I had gotten an Young Literal Translation of the Bible, and now i am very happy that I haven't used it that much.
The Bible makes it clear in John 1:1-18, that Jesus was with God, and was God; and that He as the Word has always been from all eternity, but when the Word became Flesh, the Word became the God/Man Jesus Christ who was now the Only Begotten Son of God. The Word has always been, but we see that when the fullness of time was come that the Father sent the Word, as His Son (for the Word becoming Flesh had a beginning, but He has always been God) so that while Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God in the Flesh, the rest of men and women in this world could receive the Adoption in the Family of God and become heirs, Galatians 4:4-7; Romans 8:14-17.
But as for Micah 5:2 we must remember that in the Old Testament the Word appeared as the Angel of the LORD; Genesis 22:15-18; and the Captain of the Host of the LORD, Joshua 5:16.just to mention a couple of several appearance by the Word, in ancient time. In Exodus 3:14-16 God calls Himself I AM; follow by the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; the three patriarchs are use to help show the blessed Godhead/Trinity, Colossians 2:9. When God says I Am it means He is Self Sufficient. The Jews know this better than anyone for they wanted to stone Christ, John 8:59, because of a statement He made before this: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58 Jesus Christ is saying He is Self Sufficient.
smaller
Member
Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Butch5
Member
Actually, there is no problem. Even though Micah wasn’t written in Greek, it also wasn’t written in the Masoretic text that exists today. In most English Bibles the OT is translated from the Masoretic text, however, outside of the Dead Sea Scrolls the oldest copies of the Masoretic texts we have only date back to about 1000 AD. We have copies of the Septuagint, the Greek OT that date back much farther, to around 400 AD. That’s 600 years earlier.
If you look in the NT, especially Hebrews, you’ll find that Jesus and the apostles quote the OT and if you look at the English translation of the Masoretic text you’ll find there are quite a few quotes that don’t match what they said. However, usually, if you look at those same passages in the Septuagint you’ll find just what Jesus or the apostles quoted. This shows us that Jesus and the apostles quoted and used the Septuagint and not the Hebrew or Masoretic texts. The fact that Jesus and the apostles quote from it give it authority. So, I don’t think a claim that Micah was written in Hebrew has any real basis.
Also, you should use Young’s Literal Translation, it’s actually a good reference work.
When you say, “He as the word has always been from all eternity” can you show me that from Scripture so that I can see what exactly you mean by it?
I’ve already mentioned this but I’ll mention it again. Jesus said that He came out of God (the Father), how is it that you understand that in light of what you’ve stated here?
Also, in Psalm 2 David prophesies the words of Christ.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Psa 2:7 KJV)
In this passage it says that God has begotten the Son, not Mary. It fits what Jesus said when He said He came out of God.
Here again, you say He’s always been, I think we need clarification here as to how He’s always been.
I don’t know if you’ve looked into the translation issues with owlam and aionios being wrongly translated as eternal or everlasting, but if you look at the usage of these words in the Scriptures it becomes clear that they don’t mean eternal, despite what the dictionaries say.
I’m not sure you can make the case that “I am” means the all sufficient one. I’m not sure how you see these other passages relevant to Micah 5:2. There’s nothing here that would create difficulty with the view I have put forth.
19DuggarFan
Member
In the Gospel of John, Jesus often referred to Himself as the I AM, and yes it does mean the All Sufficient One, but as for the Hebrew Word owlam it is most correctly translated from days of eternity, or from everlasting, according to Matthew Henry and The Wilson's Old Testament Word Studies, pg. 150.
Speaking of Jesus being from eternally, we see the following verses:
Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the scepter of thy kingdom is a scepter of justice.
Psalms 45:6
1) The LORD reigneth, He is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, with which He hath girded Himself: the world also is established that it cannot be moved.
2) Thy Throne is established from old: thou art from everlasting.
Psalms 93:1-2
Art not thou from everlasting, O LORD my God, my Holy One? We shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment: and O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Habakkuk 1:12
As for Psalm 2:7 speaking of the Son/Word be Begotten by the Father, John 1:1-18 speaks will to this but I will add the following:
6) And again, when He bringeth the First-Begotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him.
Hebrews 1:6
When the Only/First Begotten is mention here it is speaking of the Word becoming flesh, for if it speaks of a prior day, before creation, how could the Angels whom the Word created have been their to worship Him.
The Word has always been if not so IMO God would have been lying and God cannot lie. Hebrews 6:18 For if the Father Begot the Son before Creation, then God created God:
10) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I Am He: before Me, there was no god formed, neither shall there be after Me.
11) I, even I Am the LORD, and beside Me there is no Savior.
Isaiah 43:10-11 see also Isaiah 44:6; Hosea 13:4
So the Scripture is very clear that the Word became the Only Begotten Son of God, when He came to become the Judge between man and God and that He is eternal with no beginning nor no end. For was this not Job's cry: Neither is there any Judge between us, that might lay His hand upon us both. Job 9:33
Butch5
Member
You've stated that twice but you haven't shown me where Scripture teaches it.
As I said, one needs to look at the Scriptures. Jesus and Paul said the Law ended. The English translators say that many ordinances of the Law are forever. Who do you think is right?
The passages from Psalms use the word owlam which can't mean forever or everlasting. Habakuk uses the word qedem whih means, of old.
The passage from Hebrews is speaking of the incarnation. However, Jesus wasn't the first begotten man, however, He was the first begotten. I think it's obvious that the first begotten refers to His being begotten of the Father just as Psalm 2 says. That's also the original teaching of faith.
No, not created, begat. God begat God or another way to say it is Deity begat Deity.
What did Jesus say?
28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. (Joh 8:28 NKJ)
How do you address the words of Jesus and Paul?
Maybe we'll know when we are in heaven ---- the measure of milk and water. :p
Butch5
Member
I'm going with Jesus and Paul!
Wisdom is being personified to teach us something. God didn't suddenly become wise. No. God's wisdom doesn't have a beginning.
But according to the teaching, someone called Wisdom was created in the beginning. Perhaps this was the name God gave him. This is one way of looking at it. It's not saying the wisdom of God was created. No. Wisdom is the teacher! Was the teacher created? Or is Wisdom giving us information about this being who was beside God from the beginning? Or both. It's not that simple.
God in his wisdom created the light. That was the first of his acts of old.
What is Wisdom telling us? The first act was the light. The Word/light came out of the mouth of God. Wisdom is telling us 'he' was created. The reference is to the workman.
He was set up. This is the way or the mechanism by which God who is in heaven created the earth and everything in it. It was by his Wisdom and knowledge and understanding that he did it. So Wisdom acted as a way. This is consistent with what Jesus said - "Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him.” John 14:5-7
Those who seek to undeify Jesus use Proverbs 8 as a kind of preincarnate version of him.
But Proverbs 30 speaks of wisdom poetically as a person. A female (Proverbs 9:1 / Matthew 11:19b). And it speaks of wisdom's witnessing him who created all things. Proverbs 8:26 for example. That Creator is the preincarnate Jesus who created all things alone by himself (Isaiah 44:24). John 1:1-3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / Hebrews 1:2 / Genesis all refer to God the Word who became flesh (John 1:14). The only begotten of the Father means the only one / thing the Father created was the body of Jesus (Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). The Father was present in the beginning (1 John 1:1-2) as was the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2). But the one who created all things in the beginning acted alone:
Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
John 1:1-3 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
Colossians 1:13-16 (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
His Spirit is God the Word.
His body is created by the Father (as the last Adam meaning with the human nature Adam had before the fall).
Now reread Proverbs 8.
Those who try to undeify Jesus either try to derail the discussion at this point with a dodge to something else or they have to run for cover to avoid the truth that they are absolutely wrong.
.