Was Christ created according to Proverbs 8:30?

[JohnD]

Coke COKE? you are looking for trouble... have a

Coke was so much more refreshing in bottles... Pepsi too. Prefer coke (or actually Dr. Pepper in bottles with sugar formula).

 

[19DuggarFan]

We believe...in one Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God,, the Only-Begotten Born of the Father, that is , of the substance, of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of God, light of light, true God of God begotten not made...I
The Creed of Nicaea 325AD

While it is true this is the original form of the Creed, one must remember that many of the Leaders at this Council lean toward Arius and his teaching we know this by the fact that shortly after this Council, Athanasius, who was the leader of the Orthodox view, was soon afterwards exiles. Whiles the Arianism view was upheld by the Church for several decades after this. But we see that as the Orthodox Church regain control, that they changed the Creed to the following...
We believe...in one Lord Jesus, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made consubstantial with the Father.
Council of Constantinople I 381AD
Born of the Father before all ages, is what the Orthodox Church has called the Eternal/Everlasting Sonship of Jesus Christ. While I don't agree with this doctrine I would not argue with it as you have. But remind you that owlam is translated as Everlasting and Eternity, this is how the early church translated this word and until our modern translations of the Bible ho it was translated. For it is because of verses like Micah 5:2, that the Church Fathers taught Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ. Augustine and Athanasius both condemned any other teaching than that the Son was Eternally Begotten of the Father, just to mention a couple, instead of make a long post longer I will just let those interested do a search on the web.


EGO EIMI are the Greek words translated I Am in John 8:58, and most if not all with an Orthodox view of the Bible state that Jesus is claiming equally with God for this reason the Jews, wanted to stone Him; and thus I Am is to state I have always been Self Sufficient.

While I have no problem with one using the Septuagint as it was the language of the Jews at Jesus time, most would use the Masoretic Texts, just because you do not have to worry about the original Text being lost after two translation if not more, Greek to English, or maybe Latin in between thee two.


While I don't agree with the Eternal Sonship of Christ, I do believe that Jesus is Eternal without beginning or end. I just believe that He was the Word, until He became the Only Begotten Son of God, John 1:1-18; Hebrews 1-2 gives a great example of this, for we see that He is called the Eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6-7. This is consider the Doctrine of the Incarnational Sonship.

We must remember while the Roman Catholic Church did many good things to help the Christian Faith, it has also taught some of the most unchristian of things. The Doctrine of Justification by faith had been lost until a little before the Reformation when men like Wycliffe, Hus started to teach it; than Luther help to lead the Reformation. They have also taught pray to saints, just to mention 2 false doctrines.

IMO God has from their time been slowly calling His church to the purity of His Gospel, Isaiah 28:13; Revelation 18:4.

 

[MarkT]

Those who seek to undeify Jesus use Proverbs 8 as a kind of preincarnate version of him.

But Proverbs 30 speaks of wisdom poetically as a person. A female (Proverbs 9:1 / Matthew 11:19b). And it speaks of wisdom's witnessing him who created all things. Proverbs 8:26 for example. That Creator is the preincarnate Jesus who created all things alone by himself (Isaiah 44:24). John 1:1-3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / Hebrews 1:2 / Genesis all refer to God the Word who became flesh (John 1:14). The only begotten of the Father means the only one / thing the Father created was the body of Jesus (Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). The Father was present in the beginning (1 John 1:1-2) as was the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2). But the one who created all things in the beginning acted alone:

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

John 1:1-3 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

Colossians 1:13-16 (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

His Spirit is God the Word.

His body is created by the Father (as the last Adam meaning with the human nature Adam had before the fall).

Now reread Proverbs 8.

Those who try to undeify Jesus either try to derail the discussion at this point with a dodge to something else or they have to run for cover to avoid the truth that they are absolutely wrong.

.

Not true. There is noting poetic about it.

Proverbs states he was with God in the beginning. This agrees with John 1:1-3. The Word was with God. He was in the beginning with God. If you can't understand he was with God, then nothing is going to make sense. You can't ignore the statement. You can't dismiss it as poetry.

All things were made through him. Proverbs calls him the workman, the one who did the work. But it was God who directed him. This agrees with everything Jesus said about himself. For example, Jesus said He could only do what he saw the Father doing.

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. John 5:19

In context the Word was God. This can only be understood one way. He proceeded from the Father's bosom. John doesn't say God became flesh. The gospel of John states the Word became flesh.

The old and the new are consistent, without any contradiction.

 

[MarkT]

We believe...in one Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God,, the Only-Begotten Born of the Father, that is , of the substance, of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of God, light of light, true God of God begotten not made...I
The Creed of Nicaea 325AD

While it is true this is the original form of the Creed, one must remember that many of the Leaders at this Council lean toward Arius and his teaching we know this by the fact that shortly after this Council, Athanasius, who was the leader of the Orthodox view, was soon afterwards exiles. Whiles the Arianism view was upheld by the Church for several decades after this. But we see that as the Orthodox Church regain control, that they changed the Creed to the following...
We believe...in one Lord Jesus, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made consubstantial with the Father.
Council of Constantinople I 381AD
Born of the Father before all ages, is what the Orthodox Church has called the Eternal/Everlasting Sonship of Jesus Christ. While I don't agree with this doctrine I would not argue with it as you have. But remind you that owlam is translated as Everlasting and Eternity, this is how the early church translated this word and until our modern translations of the Bible ho it was translated. For it is because of verses like Micah 5:2, that the Church Fathers taught Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ. Augustine and Athanasius both condemned any other teaching than that the Son was Eternally Begotten of the Father, just to mention a couple, instead of make a long post longer I will just let those interested do a search on the web.

EGO EIMI are the Greek words translated I Am in John 8:58, and most if not all with an Orthodox view of the Bible state that Jesus is claiming equally with God for this reason the Jews, wanted to stone Him; and thus I Am is to state I have always been Self Sufficient.

God's Word was before Abraham was born. We know God's Word was with God in the beginning. According to the Bible, Jesus said he was before Abraham, meaning before Abraham was born, I AM. This is what Jesus said in two words. I AM. I exist. I was and I am.

This is consistent with Rev. 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, Rev.1:4

 

[JohnD]

Not true. There is noting poetic about it.

Proverbs states he was with God in the beginning. This agrees with John 1:1-3. The Word was with God. He was in the beginning with God. If you can't understand he was with God, then nothing is going to make sense. You can't ignore the statement. You can't dismiss it as poetry.

All things were made through him. Proverbs calls him the workman, the one who did the work. But it was God who directed him. This agrees with everything Jesus said about himself. For example, Jesus said He could only do what he saw the Father doing.

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. John 5:19

In context the Word was God. This can only be understood one way. He proceeded from the Father's bosom. John doesn't say God became flesh. The gospel of John states the Word became flesh.

The old and the new are consistent, without any contradiction.

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

You mistakenly accept the Watchtower definition of "through" and "by" when in fact it means Jesus preincarnate did it all alone by himself...

Colossians 1:13-16 (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Wisdom is personified as feminine. It is a poetic personification and your opinion to the contrary is only that your opinion.

 

[childeye]

The Christ was the Word "spirit" made "created" flesh. This is therefore an issue with semantics, since the Word existed with God, but the Christ was born of a woman, created inside the very creation that he himself was the energy by which it was created. John 1:1-14.

 

[MarkT]

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

You mistakenly accept the Watchtower definition of "through" and "by" when in fact it means Jesus preincarnate did it all alone by himself...

No. I'm not a JW. From what little I have heard about them, if what I have heard is true, they would be pretty hard to reach.

Colossians 1:13-16 (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Wisdom is personified as feminine. It is a poetic personification and your opinion to the contrary is only that your opinion.

Wisdom is our sister. Pr. 7:4 But who is speaking when it says, 'Does not wisdom call, does not understanding raise her voice?' Pr. 8:1 I would say it is the one who said he was created. Pr. 8:22

 

[poetofparables]

Two women visited my house and they were discussing scriptures and they were showing two verses to prove that Jesus was born. the first one was in

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Colossians 1:15)

The second scripture was from Proverbs 8:22 onwards

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

I anyhow convinced them about the first verse that Christ wasn't created according to Colossians 1:15 but it was figuratively said about Christ being the first born among man to be seated in the heavenly places.

And I also told them that there would be another connecting scripture to prove the first scripture and they immediately showed me Proverbs 8:22 and I replied them that I didn't meditate on Proverbs, I will surely get back to you.

My question is what does Proverbs 8:22-27 mean?

Colossians means jesus human body was the first born of a new creation, the body that was made in marys womb.

Now for proverbs, read all of chapter 8 its talking about wisdom.

 

[MarkT]

Colossians means jesus human body was the first born of a new creation, the body that was made in marys womb.

Now for proverbs, read all of chapter 8 its talking about wisdom.

It's not talking about wisdom. It is wisdom; it's the ability to understand and use knowledge. It's instruction to those who know him. It's poetry and folly to those who do not. Who is speaking when it says, 'Does not wisdom call?' It is the Holy Spirit. It's the LORD. His sheep know him.

 

[poetofparables]

It's not talking about wisdom. It is wisdom; it's the ability to understand and use knowledge. It's instruction to those who know him. It's poetry and folly to those who do not. It's the Holy Spirit. It's the LORD. His sheep know him.

You ok Mark, you seem upset.