Was Christ Tempted to Sin ?

[wayseer]

Was Jesus tempted? Of course. Was that temptation 'like ours' is the real question.

And the answer to that is NO. God is NOT tempted.

If Jesus was 'tempted' but such temptation was not organically human in nature then Jesus could not have been human.

You are making the point that either Jesus is NOT God, or NOT human. It is difficult.

The answer to your questions lie in the the doctrine of the Trinity.

The true doctrinal position that both persons existed as one - there was no separation.

The reason for this is simple - as the Patristic Father came to accept. If Jesus was not fully human then he did not die as a human and therefore could not have made any atonement for the sins of the world and hence satisfy all the Law and the Prophets. His sacrifice was in effect a non-sacrifice.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by smaller,

Was Jesus tempted? Of course. Was that temptation 'like ours' is the real question.

And the answer to that is NO.

Really?

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was IN ALL POINTS tempted LIKE AS WE ARE, yet without sin."

 

[smaller]

yeah, emphasis, that.

 

[smaller]

If Jesus was 'tempted' but such temptation was not organically human in nature then Jesus could not have been human.

Just saying that being tempted by having no sin IN HIM is not the same type of temptation.

There was no internal turmoil with God in Christ. I find that notion somewhat odd, that there was such.

You are making the point that either Jesus is NOT God, or NOT human. It is difficult.

Being 'human' in His case has some rather large caveat's dontchathink?

I mean being God in Christ does have it's benefits.

The answer to your questions lie in the the doctrine of the Trinity.

The true doctrinal position that both persons existed as one - there was no separation.

Never said there was. But being 'like us' does not include what all the other 'like us's' have and that is the presence of indwelling sin.

I might consider being the spotless Perfect Lamb of God again had His distinctions.

The reason for this is simple - as the Patristic Father came to accept. If Jesus was not fully human then he did not die as a human and therefore could not have made any atonement for the sins of the world and hence satisfy all the Law and the Prophets. His sacrifice was in effect a non-sacrifice.

It has nothing to do with Jesus dying a physical death, which He surely did. But even His death was not 'like ours.' God did not 'suffer' His Holy One to see corruption post death either. And again, were you or I to look in the mirror and the Lord tarry, you might see a wet compilation of dust returning the stare and it will be in the future an even dustier pile in the wind.

The Holy Body of Jesus did not have that issue either.

God was 'like a man' with a major distinction. He was God in flesh.

s

 

[wayseer]

Just saying that being tempted by having no sin IN HIM is not the same type of temptation.

There was no internal turmoil with God in Christ. I find that notion somewhat odd, that there was such.

You have lost me. It sound as if God and Jesus are having some sort of turmoil.

Being 'human' in His case has some rather large caveat's dontchathink?

No. And I think that is where I have difficulty with your position - you have placed your own caveats on what it means to be human.

But being 'like us' does not include what all the other 'like us's' have and that is the presence of indwelling sin.

Then how could someone who had no sin take away the sin of the world? This is not a trick question but one that deserves serious thinking.

I might consider being the spotless Perfect Lamb of God again had His distinctions.

Again you indulge in cliches. In what way was Jesus the 'perfect' sacrifice?

But even His death was not 'like ours.'

If Jesus death was 'not like our' then the Law has not been fulfilled. If the Law has not been fulfilled then we are left with nothing. Sin has not been defeated because Jesus could not have been the 'perfect' sacrifice as you suppose.

If you accept your own theology then you are still bound by the law of sin and death.

 

[smaller]

You have lost me. It sound as if God and Jesus are having some sort of turmoil.

Well, it's pretty easy to cut to the chase on the temptation of Jesus.

Did He-

Curse in His mind?
Think about sexual intercourse with pretty women?
Think about ripping off the local fruit vendor when his back was turned?

you get the picture?

No. And I think that is where I have difficulty with your position - you have placed your own caveats on what it means to be human.

I don't think His temptation was anything similar to ours. We do know it was very specific as disclosed in the text to certain extents.

When was the last time you were tempted to turn stones into bread? You get the picture here, right?

Then how could someone who had no sin take away the sin of the world? This is not a trick question but one that deserves serious thinking.

Attributions were taken away from 'mankind.' That does not mean they will not be counted or retribution delivered.

Again you indulge in cliches. In what way was Jesus the 'perfect' sacrifice?

Being without sin.

If Jesus death was 'not like our' then the Law has not been fulfilled.

Really don't know what that has to do with Jesus' temptation.

If the Law has not been fulfilled then we are left with nothing.

Again, not sure how this relates to His temptations.

Sin has not been defeated because Jesus could not have been the 'perfect' sacrifice as you suppose.

I'd suppose that were there sin in Him it may have spoiled the party.

And I include 'sinful thoughts' in that category.

If you accept your own theology then you are still bound by the law of sin and death.

Hmmm? Again, what that may mean to you I could only guess.

s

 

[wayseer]

Well, it's pretty easy to cut to the chase on the temptation of Jesus.

Did He-

Curse in His mind?
Think about sexual intercourse with pretty women?
Think about ripping off the local fruit vendor when his back was turned?

you get the picture?

No. How would you know what entered Jesus' mind?

If Jesus death was 'not like our' then the Law has not been fulfilled.

Really don't know what that has to do with Jesus' temptation.

If you don't know why then how can you possibly understand what Christianity is all about?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by smaller,

yeah, emphasis, that.

OK. :shades

Let's try the same verse, emphasizing other words:

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was IN ALL POINTS tempted LIKE AS WE ARE, yet without sin."


Here's Young's and Rotherham's:

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not a chief priest UNABLE to sympathise with our infirmities, but one TEMPTED in ALL THINGS IN LIKE MANNER -- apart from sin."

Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest Who is unable to understand and sympathize and have a SHARED FEELING with our weaknesses and infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptation, but One Who has been TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE, yet without sinning."

 

[smaller]

OK. :shades

Let's try the same verse, emphasizing other words:

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was IN ALL POINTS tempted LIKE AS WE ARE, yet without sin."

Uh, yeah. Emphasis that.

If you get around to defining what that temptation was or consists of perhaps it will get more interesting?

?

;)

For me it will have to be what we know for facts from the text. Speculations beyond that will probably be that.

s

 

[smaller]

No. How would you know what entered Jesus' mind?

We do know one matter about the temptations. They were without sin.

If you don't know why then how can you possibly understand what Christianity is all about?

and that has what to do with the topic matter?

 

[wayseer]

If fail to understand the connection between the Law, sin, temptation and Jesus' death and atonement then nothing I say will help.

 

[smaller]

If fail to understand the connection between the Law, sin, temptation and Jesus' death and atonement then nothing I say will help.

Or maybe you just don't want to say?

Very broad matters there. If all have a single connection upon which, if understanding failed, they all fail? I might doubt that.

Many believe that if Jesus was not tempted in the 'exact same ways internally' that we are, then somehow the whole salvation scheme falls apart.

It would really be nice if even one of you who believe Jesus was tempted internally would define what those methods and workings of temptation might be, at least in your mind. Textually speaking what there is to work with is quite limited.

I gave an example of what I might see as Paul's temptation earlier in this thread, and maybe someone can say if Jesus had this same issue?

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


Paul didn't say he promptly ran out and did all of those things, but he did say the actions of sin were internal in nature, as bringing certain things about WITHIN, in his case, concupiscence.



And Paul even pinpointed the location of temptation:

Galatians 4:14
And my temptation which was in my flesh

So, Jesus tempted by temptation in his flesh, like Paul? Including in His MIND?

?

 

[Sparkey]

In the gospel of Matthew, we see that the Holy Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted (tested?). This is seen in the first verses of chapter 4. Recall that Matthew did not include chapter headings or titles while writing those Spirit inspired words and look at the concluding verse of chapter 3.

"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased'." - Matthew 3:17 KJV

This was our Lord's direct experience prior to the 40 days he fasted, prior to the first test. Then (at the start of chapter 4) comes the adversary saying, "If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread."

Hebrews 4:15 clearly states that Jesus is sympathetic to us and that we may come boldly before the Throne of Grace because of the fact that Jesus can be touched by the feeling of our infirmities.

Now, to me, comes the question, "Have I ever been tempted to change stones into bread?" Well, the closest thing that I can come up with, while trying to understand the nature of Jesus' temptation, is to recall that, as a young man, I was tempted to purchase a lotto ticket and follow the purchace with a prayer that God would make me a millionaire. The prayer would include an admonishment to God, that He should think about all the good that I could do (with my winnings). How presumptuous could I be, right? But then, I reasoned if God wanted to, he could put a lotto ticket into the mouth of a fish - or blow it to me upon the wind.

I was considering the use of the power of God for personal benefit and forgetting the greater lesson to be learned: I needed to learn to place all my ambition and desire (and to use the $100 dollar word, "concupiscence") and all my trust into the Hands of Jesus (in heaven) where no thief could break in to steal it. I needed to learn to accept my position without complaint and with thanks unto God. I needed to think about Moses, who when tempted by riches of the Egypt, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, counting those riches as dung when when compared to the "reproach of Christ" . -Heb 11:26

I needed to learn to follow Jesus and put my confidence where he did, but where did Jesus place his confidence? Was it in the power of being the Son of God? Or was it in His Father's will and pleasure? His answer, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" shows that He and I had different understandings, yet I am told that I may come boldly before Him - because He was in all points tempted like as we.

Will my Jesus in heaven understand my sinful desire to purchase the lotto ticket? Yep, indeed He does. He too was temped (like I was), yet without sin, and is fully capable of understanding such things in a sympathetic manner. Is that part of the reason Jesus referred to himself as "the son of man"? To show how approachable he is?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By Sparrowhawke,

Will my Jesus in heaven understand my sinful desire to purchase the lotto ticket? Yep, indeed He does. He too was temped (like I was), yet without sin, and is fully capable of understanding such things in a sympathetic manner. Is that part of the reason Jesus referred to himself as "the son of man"? To show how approachable he is?

God is calling light out of darkness, not vice versa. Christ "emptied himself," and came in the flesh so he could could truthfully be "the beginning Adam, and the end Adam." He came in the flesh so He could be the first Adam and the last Adam. If He was not a literal man born of the seed of David and Abraham and of the first Adam, then He could not possibly identify with us as such.


Hebrews 2:18 "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

 

[savedbygrace57]

Since the Lord Jesus Christ was and is God manifested in the Flesh as Per Jn 1:1,14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Tim 3:16

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

And since He was God manifested in the Flesh when He was Tempted by the devil, we know by it He was not enticed to sin by inward lust within, because God cannot be tempted with evil !

James 1:13

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

 

[smaller]

Since the Lord Jesus Christ was and is God manifested in the Flesh as Per Jn 1:1,14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Tim 3:16

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

And since He was God manifested in the Flesh when He was Tempted by the devil, we know by it He was not enticed to sin by inward lust within, because God cannot be tempted with evil !

James 1:13

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Don't agree with SBG too often but that observation bears repeating.

 

[Asyncritus]

I wonder if you guys are listenig at all. If you are, then you really need to find some way around these facts. Whether or not you think Jesus was tempted by women, wine, song, gambling, whatever, you have to face these facts.

Osgiliath has stated the matter very correctly, and has been totally ignored.

Here's my 2 pennyworth for you all to ignore.




We've now got the distinction being aired, of a distinction between 'tempted' and 'enticed'. There is such a distinction, but the problem lies further back than that. The problem (for the trinitarian) lies in the word 'tempted'.

What does James really say?

First: God cannot be 'tempted' (551)

551 απειραστος apeirastos ap-i’-ras-tos

from 1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of 3987; TDNT-6:23,822; adj

AV-cannot be tempted + 2076 1; 1

1) that can not be tempted by evil, not liable to temptation to sin




NAS Lexicon:
Definition

1. that can not be tempted by evil, not liable to temptation to sin

Notice, even the lexicographer has picked this up. Why can't you?

CAN NOT (that's the force of the 'a-') be TEMPTED.

Second: Jesus was 'tempted' (3985) in all points like as we are, yet without sin.

3985 πειραζω peirazo pi-rad’-zo

from 3984; TDNT-6:23,822; v

AV-tempt 29, try 4, tempter 2, prove 1, assay 1, examine 1, go about 1; 39


You notice the two opposites.

The word apeirastos is the opposite derivative of peirazo:

A-peirastos = cannot be tempted

peirazo = tempt

God cannot even be tempted. Jesus was.

ENTICED is another word entirely:

1185 δελεαζω deleazo del-eh-ad’-zo
from the base of 1388; ; v

AV-entice 1, beguile 1, allure 1; 3

1) to bait, catch by a bait
2) metaph. to beguile by blandishments, allure, entice, deceive




So Jesus was tempted (such as God cannot be), but not enticed (you are correct enough there), and did not sin (and correct enough there too).

That is the trinitarian problem, which cannot be resolved.

This whole thing about tempted is the finish of any question of 'equality', being 'of the same nature' and all the other descriptions of Jesus in the creeds. The creed compilers failed to recognise these simple facts above, and spent (and will spend) forever trying to show that black is white and vice versa.

Whether it's loyalty, or respect for Jesus that makes you all fight tooth and nail against the extremely plain language of Hebrews 4 and Matthew 4, it really isn't good enough.

By denying that Jesus COULD sin, you completely wreck the value of His sacrifice.

In fact His death was a waste of time, since He is no Captain of our salvation. There was no battle at all.

As it refers to Jesus, the word 'sinless' becomes meaningless, and deprived of its meaning. A marble statue is 'sinless' because it can never sin. It can never be tempted. It has no lusts, desires of the flesh, NOTHING RELEVANT TO THE HUMAN CONDITION.

Is that the Jesus you believe in? It's not the Jesus of the Bible who was, as Osgiliath and Hebrews vainly try to point out, 'in all points tempted LIKE AS WE ARE, yet without sin'.

 

[smaller]

I wonder if you guys are listenig at all. If you are, then you really need to find some way around these facts. Whether or not you think Jesus was tempted by women, wine, song, gambling, whatever, you have to face these facts.

Osgiliath has stated the matter very correctly, and has been totally ignored.

Yeah, I've kinda been waiting for you Jesus was internally tempted persons to insert all these matters INTO HIM.

You are welcome to take the bait and insist those things are so.

s

 

[John Zain]

The Triune Godhead wanted to produce a sinless human male who was capable of NOT sinning,
and thus able to take our sins upon Himself and die for our sins.
This scenario would satisfy Father God, and thus it became the Plan of Salvation for mankind.

Jesus' "father" was the Holy Spirit, therefore Jesus did NOT have our fallen sin nature,
which somehow is passed on from generation to generation through the male.

Jesus, having a soul (mind, will, and emotions), certainly was tempted to sin,
but because He did NOT have our sin nature, He did NOT have to sin.

Jesus did NOT have to sin.
Jesus overcame the temptations placed before Him.
Jesus never did sin.

 

[smaller]

Once temptation is inserted INTO Him, then the inserter must examine the source of that 'lust' or whatever 'temptation' they think they see therein, which will inevitably lead to Jesus having fleshly lusts of various sorts entirely of His Own, internally.

Jesus reminded Satan not to tempt THE LORD.

Why? Because HE IS LORD.

s