Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both? Perhaps Jacob Arminius and John Calvin are wrong

[Alfred Persson]

Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both? Perhaps Jacob Arminius and John Calvin are wrong

Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2):

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:2 KJV)

Scripture also says divine election was not conditioned according to works either good or evil the Elect do:

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. (Rom. 9:11 KJV)

The apparent contradiction has caused controversy in the Church. John Calvin cited Paul to propose Election was by Sovereign choice and not based upon foreknowledge at all, while Jacob Arminius cited Peter to propose Election is conditioned on foreknowledge of "foreseen faith".

But if we deduce what it was God foreknew, the paradox vanishes. Before the foundation of the world it follows Omniscient God had two versions of Creation in view, the "Unfallen Version" which existed only in the Mind of God, and the "Fallen Version" that actually came into existence.

If God elects according to "a condition" foreknown in the "unfallen version" (which never comes into existence), Election would be according to God's Sovereign "good purpose and will" and free of any hint of unfairness even though it is not based upon any works of good or evil the Elect do in this life.

Before God created, in His Omniscience He experiences everyone who would come into existence, some respond to His love with love, others with hate. The "children of God" and the "children of the Devil" were fully known.

God skipped over the children of the Devil. By a special act of "foreknowledge", God "knew before" all those who loved Him like "highlighted text" is known before surrounding dark text. And God loved them even more (cp. Rom. 11:2). [2] Therefore, before they did anything good or bad God predestined those He foreknew loved Him unto salvation, regardless what their "fallen versions" do in this fallen realm.

This is not Molinism. His view depended on the existence of "Middle Knowledge", this view is founded in God's "Natural Knowledge" which no one objects to.

God Omnisciently knows what every unfallen individual human would do in a particular set of circumstances, where they came to into existence knowing fully God's love for them, and His Person. Those who responded to God's love and Person, with love ----God predestines all things will work together for their good:

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Rom. 8:28 NKJ)

Those who are called to live with God forever, according to the purpose of enjoying life with Him for all eternity, in love and holiness, enjoying life to its fullest with God---He in them, and they in Him, are selected from among all who would ever live, and predestined unto salvation.

God will not tolerate Death or Satan have the victory over one of these He foreknew are His, therefore He predestines them unto salvation.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:29-39 NKJ)

Everyone else is "undetermined", they choose in this life whether they also will live eternally with God in love.

Those who haven't heard the gospel of Christ, will upon death, even infants are granted the intellectually ability to understand, and those who believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and trust in His sacrifice to pay for their sins, will be raised to the resurrection of life, even if they hear the gospel while in Hades, the grave:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Upon death there is a judgment, the dead hear Christ's voice and all who obey pass over from death into life, eagerly waiting for His second appearance unto salvation:

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)

Predestination unto salvation is the action God took to guarantee none of His children were lost because of the Fall.

God Predestined those He foreknew would fall, unto salvation. Not based upon anything the "fallen version" were or did in this life. It was God's good will and pleasure not to lose any of His beloved because the Fall prevented the "unfallen version" from coming into existence.

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJ)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:8-10 NKJ)

Evidently it was unacceptable to God the fallen realm would corrupt so many of those He knows are His. Nor was it acceptable to refuse to create and all who would choose to love God (after He loved them first 1 Jn. 4:19) would not come into existence. Neither was tolerable.

Election unto Salvation resolved God's dilemma. Only creatures with absolute free will, could love God freely for Who He is. If their Free Will were a farce, their "robot love" would be an abomination. Therefore, to endow free will yet permit the inevitable fall occur [or the Beloved would never exist], God had to predestine they be saved, regardless what the fall made them become.

In other words, in a fallen world few would be saved in this life. Most never hear the gospel. Many are deceived by the temptations and lies of this fallen realm and so ignore or despise what little of the gospel they heard.

Therefore, God predestines the Elect unto salvation, even if they must pass through hell first before they repent and believe in Jesus.

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional or Unconditional or Both? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience...

endtimenews.net

 

[GodsGrace]

Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both? Perhaps Jacob Arminius and John Calvin are wrong

Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2):


Scripture also says divine election was not conditioned according to works either good or evil the Elect do:


The apparent contradiction has caused controversy in the Church. John Calvin cited Paul to propose Election was by Sovereign choice and not based upon foreknowledge at all, while Jacob Arminius cited Peter to propose Election is conditioned on foreknowledge of "foreseen faith".

But if we deduce what it was God foreknew, the paradox vanishes. Before the foundation of the world it follows Omniscient God had two versions of Creation in view, the "Unfallen Version" which existed only in the Mind of God, and the "Fallen Version" that actually came into existence.

If God elects according to "a condition" foreknown in the "unfallen version" (which never comes into existence), Election would be according to God's Sovereign "good purpose and will" and free of any hint of unfairness even though it is not based upon any works of good or evil the Elect do in this life.

Before God created, in His Omniscience He experiences everyone who would come into existence, some respond to His love with love, others with hate. The "children of God" and the "children of the Devil" were fully known.

God skipped over the children of the Devil. By a special act of "foreknowledge", God "knew before" all those who loved Him like "highlighted text" is known before surrounding dark text. And God loved them even more (cp. Rom. 11:2). [2] Therefore, before they did anything good or bad God predestined those He foreknew loved Him unto salvation, regardless what their "fallen versions" do in this fallen realm.

This is not Molinism. His view depended on the existence of "Middle Knowledge", this view is founded in God's "Natural Knowledge" which no one objects to.

God Omnisciently knows what every unfallen individual human would do in a particular set of circumstances, where they came to into existence knowing fully God's love for them, and His Person. Those who responded to God's love and Person, with love ----God predestines all things will work together for their good:


Those who are called to live with God forever, according to the purpose of enjoying life with Him for all eternity, in love and holiness, enjoying life to its fullest with God---He in them, and they in Him, are selected from among all who would ever live, and predestined unto salvation.

God will not tolerate Death or Satan have the victory over one of these He foreknew are His, therefore He predestines them unto salvation.


Everyone else is "undetermined", they choose in this life whether they also will live eternally with God in love.

Those who haven't heard the gospel of Christ, will upon death, even infants are granted the intellectually ability to understand, and those who believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and trust in His sacrifice to pay for their sins, will be raised to the resurrection of life, even if they hear the gospel while in Hades, the grave:


Upon death there is a judgment, the dead hear Christ's voice and all who obey pass over from death into life, eagerly waiting for His second appearance unto salvation:


Predestination unto salvation is the action God took to guarantee none of His children were lost because of the Fall.

God Predestined those He foreknew would fall, unto salvation. Not based upon anything the "fallen version" were or did in this life. It was God's good will and pleasure not to lose any of His beloved because the Fall prevented the "unfallen version" from coming into existence.




Evidently it was unacceptable to God the fallen realm would corrupt so many of those He knows are His. Nor was it acceptable to refuse to create and all who would choose to love God (after He loved them first 1 Jn. 4:19) would not come into existence. Neither was tolerable.

Election unto Salvation resolved God's dilemma. Only creatures with absolute free will, could love God freely for Who He is. If their Free Will were a farce, their "robot love" would be an abomination. Therefore, to endow free will yet permit the inevitable fall occur [or the Beloved would never exist], God had to predestine they be saved, regardless what the fall made them become.

In other words, in a fallen world few would be saved in this life. Most never hear the gospel. Many are deceived by the temptations and lies of this fallen realm and so ignore or despise what little of the gospel they heard.

Therefore, God predestines the Elect unto salvation, even if they must pass through hell first before they repent and believe in Jesus.

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional or Unconditional or Both? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience...

endtimenews.net

Hi AP
I wish the above was shorter.
It makes a good thread.
Care to try again and hone in on the
Topic?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hi AP
I wish the above was shorter.
It makes a good thread.
Care to try again and hone in on the
Topic?

Love to oblige. Suggest the topic please, I'll hone in on it. I agree my posts are too long, I can't help myself. I love bloviating.

 

[GodsGrace]

Love to oblige. Suggest the topic please, I'll hone in on it. I agree my posts are too long, I can't help myself. I love bloviating.

Bloviating!
I'd post a new thread.
From the very beginning to the end of showing the conflict.....

It should end here :

The apparent contradiction has caused controversy in the Church. John Calvin cited Paul to propose Election was by Sovereign choice and not based upon foreknowledge at all, while Jacob Arminius cited Peter to propose Election is conditioned on foreknowledge of "foreseen faith".

just finish it off, maybe ask a question.
Then let others answer it.

It's worth a shot.
Good topic.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Bloviating!
I'd post a new thread.
From the very beginning to the end of showing the conflict.....

It should end here :

The apparent contradiction has caused controversy in the Church. John Calvin cited Paul to propose Election was by Sovereign choice and not based upon foreknowledge at all, while Jacob Arminius cited Peter to propose Election is conditioned on foreknowledge of "foreseen faith".

just finish it off, maybe ask a question.
Then let others answer it.

It's worth a shot.
Good topic.

I'll think on it. A bit busy right now. Suggestions to start would be appreciated. Peace.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'll think on it. A bit busy right now. Suggestions to start would be appreciated. Peace.

Just do the entire beginning up to that part that I posted.
Nothing much to think about.
Your choice AP....no stress.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Just do the entire beginning up to that part that I posted.
Nothing much to think about.
Your choice AP....no stress.

I gave it my best shot here. But am open to more suggestions:

Does this “Grand Theory of Creation” satisfy the “problem of evil?” What say you?

Is it possible to reconcile the existence of evil the Sovereign LORD Yahweh who is Love? Calvinism emphasizes the absolute sovereignty and predestination of God, therefore must maintain Sovereign has predestined everything, including ordaining the existence of evil. While they insist this does...

christianforums.net

 

[Anaphora]

This is excellent topic. Your documentation is well done.

What's missing is. What happened in the first earth age.??

Satan led a rebellion in first earth age. One third of God's children followed satan in rebellion against God. Pride was the motive of satan. He wanted the Mercy seat. To be messiah.
Ezekiel chapter 28 will document satan downfall.
Jeremiah chapter 4 will document there was war in first earth age. Another one third, which is the election, stood against satan and the rebellion in first earth age.
God judged the election on the spot, in the first earth age.
Ephesians chapter 1 to document, the election are predestined and chosen before foundation of the world . The election don't have free will.

First Peter chapter 3 to document, the Kadabal. This is world wide flood that ended the first earth age. This is not Noah flood.
Noah flood is geographical.
The Kadabal is world wide flood. Get the picture.

The election are predestined to reign with Jesus during the millennium. Documentation, Ezekiel chapter 44 and romans chapter 8 to document.

Those with free will, can find salvation. That's why those who have holy spirit, plant seeds. Only Jesus can germinate those seeds. A person who is spirtualty dead, might stay that way in the flesh.

During millennium, the spirituality dead will have full understanding and capacity. Documentation, Isaiah chapter 29.

Some people will have eternal life after the millennium is over.

We see the distinction between the election and those who have free will.

God doesn't play favorites. The election earned there position from the first earth age.
Those who have free will, must be tested. In the flesh, they can choose between satan and Jesus. God won't force anyone to love Him.

God will intervene in the lifes of the election. Romans chapter 8 to document this and thier already judged.
Revelation chapter 12 to document, one third followed satan in first earth age.

I documented this.

We understand what happened in first earth age. And why we are born in the flesh, the second earth age.
We understand the millennium is time of teaching and discipline for the spirtualty dead.

 

[Iconoclast]

5 Those of mankind l that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto. ( l Eph 1:4,9,11; Rom 8:30; 2Ti 1:9; 1Th 5:9; m Rom 9:13,16; Eph 2:5,12)

6 As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith qunto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. ( n1Pe 1:2; 2Th 2:13; o1Th 5:9-10; p Rom 8:30; 2Th 2:13; q1Pe 1:5; rJoh 10:26, 17:9, 6:64)

 

[Iconoclast]

Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both? Perhaps Jacob Arminius and John Calvin are wrong

Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2):

No it does not say that. You have a wrong view of foreknowledge.

Scripture also says divine election was not conditioned according to works either good or evil the Elect do:


The apparent contradiction has caused controversy in the Church. John Calvin cited Paul to propose Election was by Sovereign choice and not based upon foreknowledge at all, while Jacob Arminius cited Peter to propose Election is conditioned on foreknowledge of "foreseen faith".

false

But if we deduce what it was God foreknew, the paradox vanishes. Before the foundation of the world it follows Omniscient God had two versions of Creation in view, the "Unfallen Version" which existed only in the Mind of God, and the "Fallen Version" that actually came into existence.

If God elects according to "a condition" foreknown in the "unfallen version" (which never comes into existence), Election would be according to God's Sovereign "good purpose and will" and free of any hint of unfairness even though it is not based upon any works of good or evil the Elect do in this life.

Before God created, in His Omniscience He experiences everyone who would come into existence, some respond to His love with love, others with hate. The "children of God" and the "children of the Devil" were fully known.

God skipped over the children of the Devil. By a special act of "foreknowledge", God "knew before" all those who loved Him like "highlighted text" is known before surrounding dark text. And God loved them even more (cp. Rom. 11:2). [2] Therefore, before they did anything good or bad God predestined those He foreknew loved Him unto salvation, regardless what their "fallen versions" do in this fallen realm.

Your explanation is off.

This is not Molinism. His view depended on the existence of "Middle Knowledge", this view is founded in God's "Natural Knowledge" which no one objects to.

God Omnisciently knows what every unfallen individual human would do in a particular set of circumstances, where they came to into existence knowing fully God's love for them, and His Person. Those who responded to God's love and Person, with love ----God predestines all things will work together for their good:

This is an unbiblical fantasy

Those who are called to live with God forever, according to the purpose of enjoying life with Him for all eternity, in love and holiness, enjoying life to its fullest with God---He in them, and they in Him, are selected from among all who would ever live, and predestined unto salvation.

God will not tolerate Death or Satan have the victory over one of these He foreknew are His, therefore He predestines them unto salvation.


Everyone else is "undetermined", they choose in this life whether they also will live eternally with God in love.

This is wrong and totally unsound.

Those who haven't heard the gospel of Christ, will upon death, even infants are granted the intellectually ability to understand, and those who believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and trust in His sacrifice to pay for their sins, will be raised to the resurrection of life, even if they hear the gospel while in Hades, the grave:

This is a completely made up falsehood. If they die unsaved they perish.

Upon death there is a judgment, the dead hear Christ's voice and all who obey pass over from death into life, eagerly waiting for His second appearance unto salvation:


Predestination unto salvation is the action God took to guarantee none of His children were lost because of the Fall.

God Predestined those He foreknew would fall, unto salvation. Not based upon anything the "fallen version" were or did in this life. It was God's good will and pleasure not to lose any of His beloved because the Fall prevented the "unfallen version" from coming into existence.




Evidently it was unacceptable to God the fallen realm would corrupt so many of those He knows are His. Nor was it acceptable to refuse to create and all who would choose to love God (after He loved them first 1 Jn. 4:19) would not come into existence. Neither was tolerable.

Election unto Salvation resolved God's dilemma. Only creatures with absolute free will, could love God freely for Who He is. If their Free Will were a farce, their "robot love" would be an abomination. Therefore, to endow free will yet permit the inevitable fall occur [or the Beloved would never exist], God had to predestine they be saved, regardless what the fall made them become.

More complete fantasy, not found in scripture.

In other words, in a fallen world few would be saved in this life. Most never hear the gospel. Many are deceived by the temptations and lies of this fallen realm and so ignore or despise what little of the gospel they heard.

Therefore, God predestines the Elect unto salvation, even if they must pass through hell first before they repent and believe in Jesus.

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional or Unconditional or Both? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience...

endtimenews.net

 

[GodsGrace]

This is excellent topic. Your documentation is well done.

What's missing is. What happened in the first earth age.??

Satan led a rebellion in first earth age. One third of God's children followed satan in rebellion against God. Pride was the motive of satan. He wanted the Mercy seat. To be messiah.
Ezekiel chapter 28 will document satan downfall.
Jeremiah chapter 4 will document there was war in first earth age. Another one third, which is the election, stood against satan and the rebellion in first earth age.
God judged the election on the spot, in the first earth age.
Ephesians chapter 1 to document, the election are predestined and chosen before foundation of the world . The election don't have free will.

First Peter chapter 3 to document, the Kadabal. This is world wide flood that ended the first earth age. This is not Noah flood.
Noah flood is geographical.
The Kadabal is world wide flood. Get the picture.

The election are predestined to reign with Jesus during the millennium. Documentation, Ezekiel chapter 44 and romans chapter 8 to document.

Those with free will, can find salvation. That's why those who have holy spirit, plant seeds. Only Jesus can germinate those seeds. A person who is spirtualty dead, might stay that way in the flesh.

During millennium, the spirituality dead will have full understanding and capacity. Documentation, Isaiah chapter 29.

Some people will have eternal life after the millennium is over.

We see the distinction between the election and those who have free will.

God doesn't play favorites. The election earned there position from the first earth age.
Those who have free will, must be tested. In the flesh, they can choose between satan and Jesus. God won't force anyone to love Him.

God will intervene in the lifes of the election. Romans chapter 8 to document this and thier already judged.
Revelation chapter 12 to document, one third followed satan in first earth age.

I documented this.

We understand what happened in first earth age. And why we are born in the flesh, the second earth age.
We understand the millennium is time of teaching and discipline for the spirtualty dead.

Does the OT actually state that the angels are children of God??

 

[GodsGrace]

5 Those of mankind l that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto. ( l Eph 1:4,9,11; Rom 8:30; 2Ti 1:9; 1Th 5:9; m Rom 9:13,16; Eph 2:5,12)

6 As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith qunto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. ( n1Pe 1:2; 2Th 2:13; o1Th 5:9-10; p Rom 8:30; 2Th 2:13; q1Pe 1:5; rJoh 10:26, 17:9, 6:64)

Hi Icon,
In Apologetics you'll have to state the source of anything written that is not from you.
Please do this in your future posts.
And try to remember that you're not in the Calvinism Forum.
Thanks.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No it does not say that. You have a wrong view of foreknowledge.

false

Your explanation is off.




This is an unbiblical fantasy

This is wrong and totally unsound.

This is a completely made up falsehood. If they die unsaved they perish.

More complete fantasy, not found in scripture.

Saying doesn't make it so.

Everything I said uses words as they are defined in the scriptures.

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge (4268. πρόγνωσις) of God the Father (1 Pet. 1:1-2 NKJ)

4268. πρόγνωσις prógnōsis; gen. prognṓseōs, fem. noun from proginṓskō (4267), to know beforehand.-Zodhiates, S. (2000). In The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). AMG Publishers.

God didn't choose without knowing anything about the chosen. No intelligent Being ignores what he knows when choosing people or things.

The proposition God did not elect according to what He knew about the Elect, is a contradiction of the plain teaching of scripture.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is excellent topic. Your documentation is well done.

What's missing is. What happened in the first earth age.??

Satan led a rebellion in first earth age. One third of God's children followed satan in rebellion against God. Pride was the motive of satan. He wanted the Mercy seat. To be messiah.
Ezekiel chapter 28 will document satan downfall.
Jeremiah chapter 4 will document there was war in first earth age. Another one third, which is the election, stood against satan and the rebellion in first earth age.
God judged the election on the spot, in the first earth age.
Ephesians chapter 1 to document, the election are predestined and chosen before foundation of the world . The election don't have free will.

First Peter chapter 3 to document, the Kadabal. This is world wide flood that ended the first earth age. This is not Noah flood.
Noah flood is geographical.
The Kadabal is world wide flood. Get the picture.

The election are predestined to reign with Jesus during the millennium. Documentation, Ezekiel chapter 44 and romans chapter 8 to document.

Those with free will, can find salvation. That's why those who have holy spirit, plant seeds. Only Jesus can germinate those seeds. A person who is spirtualty dead, might stay that way in the flesh.

During millennium, the spirituality dead will have full understanding and capacity. Documentation, Isaiah chapter 29.

Some people will have eternal life after the millennium is over.

We see the distinction between the election and those who have free will.

God doesn't play favorites. The election earned there position from the first earth age.
Those who have free will, must be tested. In the flesh, they can choose between satan and Jesus. God won't force anyone to love Him.

God will intervene in the lifes of the election. Romans chapter 8 to document this and thier already judged.
Revelation chapter 12 to document, one third followed satan in first earth age.

I documented this.

We understand what happened in first earth age. And why we are born in the flesh, the second earth age.
We understand the millennium is time of teaching and discipline for the spirtualty dead.

Too many unfamiliar concepts and words (Kadabal? The election?) for my simple brain to understand. Perhaps you can focus on one pertinent point relevant to the OP?

 

[Iconoclast]

Saying doesn't make it so.

Hello Alfred, I agree saying so does not make it so. It does not make it wrong either. The biblical proof makes it so. I have proved this on over 10 forums now. If I was to prove it here, does that mean you would admit to it, correct your error, and falsehood, and take some time to embrace the truth?

Everything I said uses words as they are defined in the scriptures.

No, in fact it can be easily shown that you do not use them as scripture does.

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge (4268. πρόγνωσις) of God the Father (1 Pet. 1:1-2 NKJ)

4268. πρόγνωσις prógnōsis; gen. prognṓseōs, fem. noun from proginṓskō (4267), to know beforehand.-Zodhiates, S. (2000). In The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). AMG Publishers.

In the bible God knows the people, he is not speaking of what they do. Of course an omniscient God knows all things, that is not what it is talking about.

God didn't choose without knowing anything about the chosen. No intelligent Being ignores what he knows when choosing people or things.

Correct , God knew all about us as dead sinners, deserving condentaion for our sins.

The proposition God did not elect according to what He knew about the Elect, is a contradiction of the plain teaching of scripture.

Not I will show briefly why you are wrong, totally wrong on this. Here is what is known as the golden chain of redemption, it is unbreakable;
I will highlight the difference for you and others. { let's see what is foreknown}

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Clearly we can see what is in view....WHOM/THEM.
It speaks of the sinners who were dead in sin.
It does not have any reference to what they will, or will not do.
God is not a passive spectator, waiting to learn what the dead sinner will do.
He see's them as lost, dead, and alienated from the life of God, eph2.
Foreknowledge is of the person, WHOM not the events, or actions.
ie, it does not say WHAT He did foreknow as you suggest.
Can you see that in this text Alfred ?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hello Alfred, I agree saying so does not make it so. It does not make it wrong either. The biblical proof makes it so. I have proved this on over 10 forums now. If I was to prove it here, does that mean you would admit to it, correct your error, and falsehood, and take some time to embrace the truth?

No, in fact it can be easily shown that you do not use them as scripture does.

In the bible God knows the people, he is not speaking of what they do. Of course an omniscient God knows all things, that is not what it is talking about.

Correct , God knew all about us as dead sinners, deserving condentaion for our sins.

Not I will show briefly why you are wrong, totally wrong on this. Here is what is known as the golden chain of redemption, it is unbreakable;
I will highlight the difference for you and others. { let's see what is foreknown}

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Clearly we can see what is in view....WHOM/THEM.
It speaks of the sinners who were dead in sin.
It does not have any reference to what they will, or will not do.
God is not a passive spectator, waiting to learn what the dead sinner will do.
He see's them as lost, dead, and alienated from the life of God, eph2.
Foreknowledge is of the person, WHOM not the events, or actions.
ie, it does not say WHAT He did foreknow as you suggest.
Can you see that in this text Alfred ?

No, its not there. Nothing in the context is about sin or sinners, it refers to a time before sin existed, before God created. He elected people He knew, to salvation. Not people He didn't know.

You (and Calvin, and Arminius) are perceiving time as finite creatures do, not as Paul does in that scripture, Infinite God who does not exist in time and space, but in eternity that encompasses all space time.

For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones. (Isa. 57:15 NKJ)

God in His Omniscient Foreknowledge, knew the Elect BEFORE they existed, BEFORE they were created.

Before they did good or bad:

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

God wasn't foreknowing what they would do after the Fall, this all happened BEFORE the fall.

God foreknew these before they were fallen, and all who freely responded to His Love knowing He is their Creator and a Holy God of Light who hates sin---loving Him back because He is impeccably good; are His children---the children of God.

AND God predestined THEM to salvation, DECREEING ALL THINGS would work for their good, not because of anything they would do in the fallen realm, but because it was God's purpose and good will none of them be destroyed by satan or die the death.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 NKJ)

But in this fallen realm, they are saved by grace through faith. So there is the Eternal and the Temporal, in mystery:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:8-10 NKJ)

It is "through faith" their predestination to salvation is made "actual in finite time, in our space time". But that doesn't diminish their being predestined to be conformed to image of His Son Jesus, their LORD and Savior. Its all part of God's good purpose and will:

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom. 8:18-21 NKJ)

 

[Iconoclast]

No, its not there. Nothing in the context is about sin or sinners, it refers to a time before sin existed, before God created. He elected people He knew, to salvation. Not people He didn't know.

I knew you would ignore what I said, but offered it for the sake of others who want to learn the truth.

You (and Calvin, and Arminius) are perceiving time as finite creatures do, not as Paul does in that scripture, Infinite God who does not exist in time and space, but in eternity that encompasses all space time.

For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones. (Isa. 57:15 NKJ)

This is off topic, a defelection

God in His Omniscient Foreknowledge, knew the Elect BEFORE they existed, BEFORE they were created.

You are conflating the two words, as you hold onto your error. God of course knew the elect, because he elected them.

Before they did good or bad:

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

God wasn't foreknowing what they would do after the Fall, this all happened BEFORE the fall.

You totally missed the point, or you seek to cover your error in this way. God considered all mankind as fallen. That is why we are told Jesus was the lamb slain before the world was;
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God foreknew these before they were fallen,

You have no support for that. Your Romans 9 quote is misused, in vain.

and all who freely responded to His Love knowing He is their Creator and a Holy God of Light who hates sin---loving Him back because He is impeccably good; are His children---the children of God.

Complete fantasy, there are none who seek God, without the Spirit, they cannot welcome truth. You can try and invent another narrative, but anyone who reads the bible knows differently. I do not want to hinder your imagination, and fantasies, but this idea is miles away from truth.

AND God predestined THEM to salvation, DECREEING ALL THINGS would work for their good, not because of anything they would do in the fallen realm, but because it was God's purpose and good will none of them be destroyed by satan or die the death.

Once again, no biblical support whatsoever. You seek to put man on the throne, trying to usurp God's authority, but it will not fly.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 NKJ)

Tacking this on to your posted error, does not reverse the scriptures that teach opposite to what you try and do.

But in this fallen realm, they are saved by grace through faith. So there is the Eternal and the Temporal, in mystery:

Sorry, this is double talk ,trying to give a reason for your error. Thanks for offering your thoughts however.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:8-10 NKJ)

Okay

It is "through faith" their predestination to salvation is made "actual in finite time, in our space time". But that doesn't diminish their being predestined to be conformed to image of His Son Jesus, their LORD and Savior. Its all part of God's good purpose and will:

Yes, what God planned and purposed in time , comes to pass in real time as he purposed it.

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom. 8:18-21 NKJ)

Again, posting valid verses as an add on, does not deal with the whole ...WHOM/ THEM thing i posted, as you cannot actually deal with the truth, but seek to evade it, and post all around it,

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Clearly we can see what is in view....WHOM/THEM.
It speaks of the sinners who were dead in sin.
It does not have any reference to what they will, or will not do.
God is not a passive spectator, waiting to learn what the dead sinner will do.
He see's them as lost, dead, and alienated from the life of God, eph2.
Foreknowledge is of the person, WHOM not the events, or actions.
ie, it does not say WHAT He did foreknow as you suggest.
Can you see that in this text Alfred ?

As I asked in the other post;
If I was to prove it here, does that mean you would admit to it, correct your error, and falsehood, and take some time to embrace the truth? Clearly you fail to deal with it!

 

[Alfred Persson]

I knew you would ignore what I said, but offered it for the sake of others who want to learn the truth.

This is off topic, a defelection

You are conflating the two words, as you hold onto your error. God of course knew the elect, because he elected them.

You totally missed the point, or you seek to cover your error in this way. God considered all mankind as fallen. That is why we are told Jesus was the lamb slain before the world was;
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You have no support for that. Your Romans 9 quote is misused, in vain.

Complete fantasy, there are none who seek God, without the Spirit, they cannot welcome truth. You can try and invent another narrative, but anyone who reads the bible knows differently. I do not want to hinder your imagination, and fantasies, but this idea is miles away from truth.

Once again, no biblical support whatsoever. You seek to put man on the throne, trying to usurp God's authority, but it will not fly.

Tacking this on to your posted error, does not reverse the scriptures that teach opposite to what you try and do.

Sorry, this is double talk ,trying to give a reason for your error. Thanks for offering your thoughts however.

Okay

Yes, what God planned and purposed in time , comes to pass in real time as he purposed it.

Again, posting valid verses as an add on, does not deal with the whole ...WHOM/ THEM thing i posted, as you cannot actually deal with the truth, but seek to evade it, and post all around it,

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Clearly we can see what is in view....WHOM/THEM.
It speaks of the sinners who were dead in sin.
It does not have any reference to what they will, or will not do.
God is not a passive spectator, waiting to learn what the dead sinner will do.
He see's them as lost, dead, and alienated from the life of God, eph2.
Foreknowledge is of the person, WHOM not the events, or actions.
ie, it does not say WHAT He did foreknow as you suggest.
Can you see that in this text Alfred ?

As I asked in the other post;
If I was to prove it here, does that mean you would admit to it, correct your error, and falsehood, and take some time to embrace the truth? Clearly you fail to deal with it!

If you can't revisit your PRESUPPOSITIONS, and prove they are scriptural....it is you who evade the issue.

Calvin, Arminius and YOU assume God is foreknowing people as they exist after the Fall:

"God knew all about us as dead sinners, deserving condemnation for our sins."

All of you presume Paul is speaking about foreknowing sinners AND THAT is why you are all wrong.

Sinners aren't in the Romans 8:28ff context. Many Commentaries remark on the absence of sinners in the context but fail to connect the dots.

God is predestining those He foreknew BEFORE creation, not as they would be after creation, but as they would be BEFORE the fall. He predestines all things work for the good of His children. He ignores the rest.

Before sin and self-delusion caused by the fall corrupted their free will.

God knew everyone who would come into existence, including angels and for the greater good decided to create.

In order that God's children come into existence, God endures with much long suffering the Fall, and the vessels of wrath it would create:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, (Rom. 9:22-23 NKJ)

If you can't revisit your PRESUPPOSITIONS, and prove they are scriptural....it is you who evaded the issue I raised.

Prove God is foreknowing sinners after the fall. Not only is that assumption inconsistent with the context, it violates all the texts that say election stands on God and not what people did in the Fallen realm good or bad.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! (Rom. 9:14 NKJ)

Everyone who comes into existence, has equal opportunity in Christ to be saved. Whosoever will believe, will be saved.

God guarantees His children who love Him, will be saved. He has that right as Creator, from the same lump of clay make different vessels. But there is no unrighteousness with God because EVERYONE, elect and non Elect, must believe in Jesus to be saved. They make their free will choice. God's prevenient grace makes the ability to choose life an "equal opportunity" for all.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you can't revisit your PRESUPPOSITIONS, and prove they are scriptural....it is you who evade the issue.

Not so my friend, you avoid it like the plague,lol Just as I said, here again you directly avoid what was posted. it stands as written , and that is without even a full explanation. Thanks for confirming what i knew.

Calvin, Arminius

These people are not involved in this discussion.It is me and you, and the word of God, against your man centered theology.

and YOU assume God is foreknowing people as they exist after the Fall:

I offered Rev13:8 so you would have another scripture verse to ignore.

"God knew all about us as dead sinners, deserving condemnation for our sins."

All of you presume Paul is speaking about foreknowing sinners AND THAT is why you are all wrong.

The bible explains it from start to finish. You ignore it, that is on you. The lamb was said to be slain before the world was. Slain for what reason Alfred??? Could it be sin?

Sinners aren't in the Romans 8:28ff context.

A completely foolish statement. The whole truth of scripture does not disappear into a black whole when we get to Romans 8. Even as Christians we are still sinners, saved sinners, but sinners none the less
The more you post, your theology is exposed with more holes than swiss cheese.

Many Commentaries remark on the absence of sinners in the context but fail to connect the dots.

That is because it is speaking of the elect of God.

God is predestining those He foreknew BEFORE creation, not as they would be after creation, but as they would be BEFORE the fall.

Again, a false foundation you are building on.

He predestines all things work for the good of His children. He ignores the rest.

This sentence is true, by itself.

Before sin and self-delusion caused by the fall corrupted their free will.

Now we get to the idol of "free will", which does not exist, then , now, or ever, but as a man centered devotee you insert your idol into the discussion, although the idea is not anywhere in the text.

God knew everyone who would come into existence, including angels and for the greater good decided to create.

God created for His good pleasure, not ant "greater good" as if you can bring God down to a human philosphical level.

In order that God's children come into existence, God endures with much long suffering the Fall, and the vessels of wrath it would create:

The long suffering of God is so that all the elect will be saved, not one will be lost. Peter tells us this 2Pet;3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, (Rom. 9:22-23 NKJ)

Like I said, the elect

If you can't revisit your PRESUPPOSITIONS, and prove they are scriptural....it is you who evaded the issue I raised.

This is an empty response as you flee from the text. All who read can see the issue clearly.The truth stands as posted, two posts, and you still fail to deal with it. I knew you could not, but offered it for those who want to learn.

Prove God is foreknowing sinners after the fall.

That has already been done, to any who can begin to understand Rev. 13:8

Not only is that assumption inconsistent with the context, it violates all the texts that say election stands on God and not what people did in the Fallen realm good or bad.

It violates nothing. You failing to understand Romans 9:11-13 does not change anything.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! (Rom. 9:14 NKJ)

No, not at all when we understand what he wrote to us.

Everyone who comes into existence, has equal opportunity in Christ to be saved.

Not at all. that has never been the case. They are responsible to believe, but they do not want to at all.Rom.10:14

Whosoever will believe, will be saved.

Every believing person will be saved. Only those elected by God will been drawn to a saving faith and belief

God guarantees His children who love Him, will be saved. He has that right as Creator, from the same lump of clay make different vessels. But there is no unrighteousness with God because EVERYONE, elect and non Elect, must believe in Jesus to be saved.

Where do you get any suggestion of non elect people believing? You make this up once again

They make their free will choice.

In your mind perhaps, but as free will does not exist, they will remain with their self will which is bound by sin.

God's prevenient grace makes the ability to choose life an "equal opportunity" for all.

No such thing as prevenient grace, but seeing you are inventing falsehoods as you go, you might as well throw that error in.

 

[Alfred Persson]

"All of you presume Paul is speaking about foreknowing sinners AND THAT is why you are all wrong."

I offered Rev13:8 so you would have another scripture verse to ignore.

That's incoherent, Revelation 13:8 has nothing to do with proving from scripture God foreknew sinners after the fall, and NOT as Paul says, before they did good or bad.

That is why all three of you are wrong. You keep reading into scripture what isn't there. Its called confirmation bias.

Peter is explicit, God elected according to His foreknowledge, therefore you, Calvin, and Arminius argue from a wrong presupposition about what God foreknew. God foreknew everyone BEFORE they did good or bad, not as they were after:


1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Pet. 1:1-2 NKJ)

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

"Love" is not a work, its a response. God foreknew all who responded to His love, with love. In an instant they were informed of God, His person, His holiness, hatred for sin...and they loved God because He is impeccably good. They are God's Children, therefore He SELECTED them from everyone else, predestining them to be conformed to Jesus in this fallen realm, and be saved. Its "love before time existed, it happened in the Omniscient foreknowledge of God our Creator.